180 replies to this topic

[VIIIofSwords]

Well, the Planes are a little complicated to navigate, so a little simplification there wouldn't be so bad. However, simplify things too much and it loses a lot of the flavor behind it. I, for one, would look upon any attempt to write out something like the Blood War or the Elemental Planes, as I see them as being integral components of the history of D&D's massive cosmology. A little trimming down would be nice, but hacking away a big chunk of the material would make things worse.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I would say, that they need to get rid of the bard class, and subsidize rogues(thieves) to have to have the perform skill as a class-skill and with it the bard song etc, if used.

[Tempest]

I disagree on the Planes being hard to navigate-it seems complicated at first, but once you learn how they're organized, it's actually quite simple and easy to understand, with the only oddballs being the astral, ethereal, and shadow planes. But 3E doesn't officially recognize the Blood War, and the info on 4E given over at G3 indicates that the Blood War will definitely not exist in 4E, along with the elementals just being another kind of demon. From the sounds of it, the planes will be reduced to each major godly court, the Abyss, the Nine Hells, and all the elemental planes which will be lumped together into basically a collection of sub-planes.

I'll grant that the Planes are a bit tough to learn-how they work, how they're organized, what a Planescape campaign is like and so on and so forth. But games usually either gloss over the Planes or go whole hog on it, so I don't like WotC's view on this. There's a line between simplifying overly complex things and dumbing down a rich and fantastically imaginative setting to fit the lowest common denominator.

Jarno, bards are far more than just the bard song ability-bards and rogues are very different classes in 4E. Still, if one of the classes is getting axed, it's almost certainly the bard or the monk.

[VIIIofSwords]

Sad thing about the Blood War. I always liked it as a concept and as a background set piece.

Also, I'd axe the monk over the bard. Not because they're bad, but because the style of monk used by D&D (and various other fantasy games) doesn't entirely fit the setting, IMO. Although, if magic were to become entirely unreliable, complete reliance on one's own physical and mental abilities (akin to what monks seem to espouse) might become common teaching. The PS1 game Legend of Legaia pulls this off, with an order of monks preaching about self-reliance in the wake of their world's source of magic turning on humans.

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 14 November 2007 - 11:18 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

...bards are far more than just the bard song ability...

Yeah, they have rogue-sorcerer dual-class subjugated into one almost similar class.

[Azkyroth]

I disagree on the Planes being hard to navigate-it seems complicated at first, but once you learn how they're organized, it's actually quite simple and easy to understand, with the only oddballs being the astral, ethereal, and shadow planes. But 3E doesn't officially recognize the Blood War, and the info on 4E given over at G3 indicates that the Blood War will definitely not exist in 4E, along with the elementals just being another kind of demon. From the sounds of it, the planes will be reduced to each major godly court, the Abyss, the Nine Hells, and all the elemental planes which will be lumped together into basically a collection of sub-planes..

Great, by 5th edition they'll have one single Evil plane alternately called "the hells" or "the abyss" as needed.

...I guess Bioware was really ahead of their time.

[VIIIofSwords]

Great, by 5th edition they'll have one single Evil plane alternately called "the hells" or "the abyss" as needed.

...I guess Bioware was really ahead of their time.

Oh, that'd be bad. Well, not really, but it'd be too similar to how SJ Games' In Nomine cosmology works. Mind you, that's not a bad thing, but D&D demons and devils don't have any sort of overarching evil ruler to keep them from going too far from the line.

[aVENGER]

Additional note: Gargauth's home plane is the Prime Material and from what I've read he seems to be against pretty much everyone, so it seems unlikely that he'd have joined Bane's court willingly...

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to serve Asmodeus now that big A is a deity as well, especially considering Gargauth's true origin (former arch-devil and all).

[Jarno Mikkola]

...

Well, if there are nine hells, why couldn't they be the elemental planes?
Yes, I know, that's against all the rules of FR's, but...Bring in the Temple of Elemental Evil.

[VIIIofSwords]

Didn't they exile Gargauth? I doubt that they'd actually want him back if they did kick him out.

[aVENGER]

Didn't they exile Gargauth? I doubt that they'd actually want him back if they did kick him out.

There are hints that his "exile" was actually a carefully planned ruse for taking more direct control over the Prime Material.

[Deathsangel]

I foresee gloom and doom for the immediate future of the Realms. Especially if the part about Netheril coming back is true.

Who says the return immediately in full glory; along the fact I said earlier. It was a magic nation. That spellplague hurts them as well.

Anyone else want to know what he'd do with a 12th-level spell?

Elminster is in hiding... he can do it

Any thoughts on my idea of multiple deities responsible for magic rather than one over-arching being?

Would be nice thing. I can see Selune, Azuth, Shar or indeed even Oghma (for divination) and Karloch (for necromancy) handle this.

(and yes, I know that Boccob is Greyhawk. I used him as he is also a god of all magic, and neutral. Just wondering if they change the realms weave, will they need to change him? What happens to other great deities of magic?)

The craziest way to go about this would probably be to assign one god with the appropriate portfolio a school of magic.

Oh, there you go the idea I had just typed

I suspect non-weave magic would be much less "ritualized" (prescribed material and somatic and verbal components and so on) and more of a personal approach type thing...

It isn't in Greyhawk, so why in Fearun?

But 3E doesn't officially recognize the Blood War, and the info on 4E given over at G3 indicates that the Blood War will definitely not exist in 4E, along with the elementals just being another kind of demon. From the sounds of it, the planes will be reduced to each major godly court, the Abyss, the Nine Hells, and all the elemental planes which will be lumped together into basically a collection of sub-planes.

Euh... Manual of the Planes, which I have speak of the Blood War. So, yes 3E recognizes it. But far less than AD&D... which is a shame.
They are going to mess up with Demons and Devils all the way. Devils = fallen angels, human looking. Yugoloth (if returning) = insectoid looking. Demons = weird looking
And I sincerly dislike the cut down of the Planes. They are a bit much in the beginning, but after that they are so cool. It is my favourite setting

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to serve Asmodeus now that big A is a deity as well, especially considering Gargauth's true origin (former arch-devil and all).
There are hints that his "exile" was actually a carefully planned ruse for taking more direct control over the Prime Material.

I never understood why he wasn't outright evil, considering his background and portfolio of corruption as examples. (edit: actually I think I saw a list online once that told he was evil... haven't got the link for the usual reason (not being in my home country with my home computer) And yep, Asmodeus is to become a god, so I think Gargauth will be hauling his *** back to him.

The hints I missed. Heck some people on the Gleemax boards (WoTC) (I am known there as Arscura) think Pelor has two sides. Long interessting discussion, but if you look at the 'facts' they bring to the table for this, some of the most important ones are homebrew. With a perhaps poorly though drawings here and there, only because Jozan is the only icon figure as cleric. It is an interresting concept for a homebrew campaign, but I doubt if it is true. I put also a very long post about it taking all arguments into account.
For this reason I wonder where you got your hints from, but it would be nice idea, though Gargauth has to be evil!

Edited by Deathsangel, 15 November 2007 - 02:15 AM.

[Bluenose]

There's some changes coming for the planes in 4e core, which will probably appear in FR too. The main one is the Astral Sea replacing the Great Wheel/Great Tree. The 'Outer Planes' are going to be islands or bubbles in the astral plane, distinct from each other and with a variety of residents. So there will be a plane for the Seven Heavens where archons live and probably some deities, and another for the Gates of the Moon which is inhabited by Selune and the lesser deities and outsiders associated with her. It's possible that different worlds like FR, Greyhawk, etc will also be their own bubble, but that isn't confirmed. This is something I'm actually quite looking forward to, I can already imagine an adventure involving travel to an outer plane on an astral ship, encounters with astral pirates, and so on. I don't really think that it's as different from the older view as it appears, most of the planes still exist and you still travel through the astral plane to get to them unless you use powerful magic to go directly.

The elemental planes are changing quite a lot. There's only going to be one, the Elemental Chaos, with different regions dominated by particular elements and with sections merging to give rise to some of the odder para-elementals. Places like the City of Brass will still exist, but the merging of the planes may make them more usable in adventures - the elemental plane of water wasn't exactly easy to get around, but a section of a plane dominated by water might be.

Devils and demons also see a change. The Hells are still around, though Asmodeus has become a god (I'm not sure what difference this makes, he was always able to grant spells, and frankly was comparable in power to gods anyway). Devils are former angels who rebelled against their god and slew him, but were confined to the hells by his dying curse and want to escape. Demons are in some way going to be corrupted elementals, though I haven't seen much about this. And apparently devils are going to be more inclined to make deals and seduce mortals, while demons are generally destructive, which does make someone like Grazzt rather harder to understand. And succubi are now a type of devil rather than demons

There's also two planes that will be much closer to the prime than others. The Shadowfell is a shadowy version of the prime, with the same features in general but with less life, less colour, and probably a lot of undead. The Feywild is the former Faerie, getting more exposure in this edition and where everything is like the prime but taken to excess in some way.


It does seem like bards and monks will both be missing from the first PHB, but there have been claims that the same number of classes will be in. Oddly the class I think would be easiest to lose would be druid, in favour of a cleric variant. Gnomes look to be the casualty among the races, and tieflings are confirmed as in. There is supposed to be another PHB (PHB2?) a year later, which will include more races and classes, and I'd expect gnomes to be in there even if they aren't playable from their MM entry. That's especially likely because WotC will probably release Eberron in 2009, and gnomes are an important part of that world (along with psionics and monks for that matter).

There should be two FR releases next year, probably very close together. The first will be the FRCS, with the information about the world, locations, deities, etc. The second will be a Player's Book of Faerun, with character options so that FR characters have options that reflect the world - in other words, all the 'crunch' is in one book and all the 'fluff' in another. I'm not sure how I feel about that, part of me likes it because you get background without having to wade through rules, but then if you want the rules information too you have to but two books.

[aVENGER]

I never understood why he wasn't outright evil, considering his background and portfolio of corruption as examples. (edit: actually I think I saw a list online once that told he was evil... haven't got the link for the usual reason (not being in my home country with my home computer) And yep, Asmodeus is to become a god, so I think Gargauth will be hauling his *** back to him.

Erm, Gargauth is already Lawful Evil according to his stat block in Faiths and Pantheons.

For this reason I wonder where you got your hints from, but it would be nice idea, though Gargauth has to be evil!

The Gates of Hell: Chapter 8 - The Archdevils. I'm not sure whether that supplement is canon or not, but the way Astaroth/Gargauth's "exile" was explained there makes perfect sense.

Edited by aVENGER, 15 November 2007 - 02:51 AM.

[Bluenose]

I foresee gloom and doom for the immediate future of the Realms. Especially if the part about Netheril coming back is true.

Who says the return immediately in full glory; along the fact I said earlier. It was a magic nation. That spellplague hurts them as well.

There's also the netherese enclave of Selune worshippers, so it's possible they might have returned and established it. What would amuse me would be if the Shade enclave fell when Mystra died and both Weaves collapsed, and this new Netherese empire consisted of half a dozen villages and a coerced tribe of orcs

Any thoughts on my idea of multiple deities responsible for magic rather than one over-arching being?

Would be nice thing. I can see Selune, Azuth, Shar or indeed even Oghma (for divination) and Karloch (for necromancy) handle this.

(and yes, I know that Boccob is Greyhawk. I used him as he is also a god of all magic, and neutral. Just wondering if they change the realms weave, will they need to change him? What happens to other great deities of magic?)

I would like to see Selune's worship increase as a lot of good spellcasters turn to her on Mystra's death, while Shar is weakened by the collapse of the shadow weave, making the two sisters much closer in power. Though the hints are that Corellon will also be heavily involved with magic.

[Deathsangel]

The elemental plane of water wasn't exactly easy to get around, but a section of a plane dominated by water might be.

And succubi are now a type of devil rather than demons

There's also two planes that will be much closer to the prime than others. The Shadowfell is a shadowy version of the prime, with the same features in general but with less life, less colour, and probably a lot of undead. The Feywild is the former Faerie, getting more exposure in this edition and where everything is like the prime but taken to excess in some way.

Gnomes look to be the casualty among the races, and tieflings are confirmed as in.

The elemental plane of water isn't that hard. Just two spells, freedom of movement and water breathing and voila. Elemental plane of earth, with no air whatsoever is more a pain in the ass, even with CS spell Xorn movement, there is no spell (to my knowledge) that grants the abililty not having to breath for a long time.

Yeah, they are bringing the Faerie realm closer, but I thought the plane of shadow always close. Certianly if you read how to get there and the fact around its nature. Certainly when having ToM.

Dislike the Tieflings in, Gnomes out as well... Why Tieflings anyway and not Aasimars. Tieflings are still leaning towards evil and not CN as so many people think. That area is for Chaonds... they are actually given an evil race to play, which is against the normal guidelines... or are they thrown overboard Really, if they make Tiefling chaotic I am going to have a little [stupid WoTC] moment

I never understood why he wasn't outright evil, considering his background and portfolio of corruption as examples. (edit: actually I think I saw a list online once that told he was evil... haven't got the link for the usual reason (not being in my home country with my home computer) And yep, Asmodeus is to become a god, so I think Gargauth will be hauling his *** back to him.

Erm, Gargauth is already Lawful Evil according to his stat block in Faiths and Pantheons.

For this reason I wonder where you got your hints from, but it would be nice idea, though Gargauth has to be evil!

The Gates of Hell: Chapter 8 - The Archdevils. I'm not sure whether that supplement is canon or not, but the way Astaroth/Gargauth's "exile" was explained there makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the info. I thought back in this topic people spoke of him as neutral... or was that Gargaros? I tend to get them mixed up... I mean the one that is the battle dude, talked about that had to decide between good and evil.

I would like to see Selune's worship increase as a lot of good spellcasters turn to her on Mystra's death, while Shar is weakened by the collapse of the shadow weave, making the two sisters much closer in power. Though the hints are that Corellon will also be heavily involved with magic.

Yeah, the sisters were always unequall in power. Never understood why Shar couldn't get her killed. Even with Mystra's protection.
And wasn't Corellon always involved in Magic... at least he is in the 'regular' PH and Greyhawk stuff.

Edited by Deathsangel, 15 November 2007 - 04:35 AM.

[Tempest]

No-Garagos is CN, but stands right on the brink of CE.

The Plane of Shadow has always been around, and although it has lots of undead in some areas, it's actually quite habitable and largely inhabited by relatively normal plants, animals, and people. So long as you avoid the Darklands, the Plane of Shadow is a perfectly hospitable place to visit and even live-a couple of PnP characters from my friends ended up retiring to the Plane of Shadow after their adventuring days ended.

And tieflings quite frankly lack merit as a base race, except in a Planescape setting. Tieflings and Aasimar are supposed to be very rare and unusual on the Prime, and seeing one made a base race for the coolness factor makes me sick to my stomache-next thing you know, drow will be a base race as well.

With the changes to the elemental planes, it definitely sounds like the elemental lords are out. Which is wierd, since they're all greater deities, but I'm guessing the story will be that they killed each other.

Edited by Tempest, 15 November 2007 - 06:13 AM.

[Kellen]

Jarno, bards are far more than just the bard song ability-bards and rogues are very different classes in 4E. Still, if one of the classes is getting axed, it's almost certainly the bard or the monk.

Wouldn't it make sense with all the wonky magic to cut either Wizard or Sorcerer? If magic is changing so much the need for three separate spell-casters (Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer) is not all that great. Actually with the emphasis that Bard and Sorcerer magic is more from within, I would think Wizard would be the more likely kick candidate.

Then again, PHB isn't specific to FR.

And succubi are now a type of devil rather than demons

Ex-Sunite/Sharess angels?


I personally entirely dislike the Gnomes being kicked for Tieflings too. Tieflings along with Drow(or any Elves really) are probably one of the most misused races ever. They're demon/devil-blooded, not CG thief people. Maybe you're looking for Halflings(No snub at Halflings, I like Halflings, and do realize not all of them are thieves)? But when we start getting humans who act like humans, think like humans, and look like humans, save for horns or tails or whatever makes them look 'smexy' I will get highly annoyed. Same if every one of them becomes the stereotypical, fighting their heritage, but still a fun and playful rogue, so they have to deal with racial and classal prejudice, and still come out as these paragons of virtue. Ugh! I think I'm sick.

Anyways, now you know that Kellen does not love everything. Every Elf and Tiefling he meets has some high expectations to meet before he lowers his guard.

[Bluenose]

Jarno, bards are far more than just the bard song ability-bards and rogues are very different classes in 4E. Still, if one of the classes is getting axed, it's almost certainly the bard or the monk.

Wouldn't it make sense with all the wonky magic to cut either Wizard or Sorcerer? If magic is changing so much the need for three separate spell-casters (Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer) is not all that great. Actually with the emphasis that Bard and Sorcerer magic is more from within, I would think Wizard would be the more likely kick candidate.

Then again, PHB isn't specific to FR.

Sorcerers are probably getting a shot in the back too Replaced by the Warlock, of all things.

And succubi are now a type of devil rather than demons

Ex-Sunite/Sharess angels?

Apparently it's because they want devils to be more humanoid with demons bestial (and the 'loths to be insectile?). And with demons getting the "kill-crush-destroy" programming they don't fit in so well as seducers, especially if devils are all "bargain-trick-control". It damages past consistency, but they're slaughtering a lot of sacred cows for 4e.

I personally entirely dislike the Gnomes being kicked for Tieflings too. Tieflings along with Drow(or any Elves really) are probably one of the most misused races ever. They're demon/devil-blooded, not CG thief people. Maybe you're looking for Halflings(No snub at Halflings, I like Halflings, and do realize not all of them are thieves)? But when we start getting humans who act like humans, think like humans, and look like humans, save for horns or tails or whatever makes them look 'smexy' I will get highly annoyed. Same if every one of them becomes the stereotypical, fighting their heritage, but still a fun and playful rogue, so they have to deal with racial and classal prejudice, and still come out as these paragons of virtue. Ugh! I think I'm sick.

To be fair, I don't see many gnomes in play, and it's probable that they'll make an appearance in the MM. This should make them if not entirely developed at least playable. And in 2009, PHB2 will have gnomes. OR ELSE.

But I don't think tieflings are the right choice as the replacement race. Perhaps planetouched races in general, but not something so specialised.

Anyways, now you know that Kellen does not love everything. Every Elf and Tiefling he meets has some high expectations to meet before he lowers his guard.

[Bluenose]

With the changes to the elemental planes, it definitely sounds like the elemental lords are out. Which is wierd, since they're all greater deities, but I'm guessing the story will be that they killed each other.

I'm thinking that with some of the other changes to how the planes and deities are looking, the most powerful beings on each plane are going to be at least deity-like. Asmodeus has made the shift, I'd expect the top Feywild beings (Oberon and Titania) to be able to grant divine spells, many of the demon lords already do, and most outer planes have a few resident gods. If you're capable of granting divine spells to your 'worshippers' then it's hard to distinguish you from a god, and i'd expect the top elemental lords to be able to do that.

Though now I wonder who the top dog is on the Shadowfell, and what sort of spells might they grant.