24 replies to this topic

[Kaeloree]

I've read on several forums that people would like to see more "NPC Relationship" content. That's one of the things which we can explore with this mod--after all, that's part of what banter is about, isn't it?

The question is--what characters are you interested in seeing? Expansions upon existing relationships, such as Mazzy/Valygar, or situations which explore the relationships between other characters, such as Cernd and Nalia?

Or do you have other ideas?

[aVENGER]

I've read on several forums that people would like to see more "NPC Relationship" content. That's one of the things which we can explore with this mod--after all, that's part of what banter is about, isn't it?

Are we talking about NPC-to-NPC romantic relationships (i.e. Haer'Dalis + Aerie in the unmodded game) or simply an extended friendship between two NPCs (i.e. Minsc + Aerie in the unmodded game)? If it's the latter, I'd like to see more interaction between Keldorn and Mazzy and also LG Sir Anomen and Mazzy.

[berelinde]

If you mean "relationships" in the sense that the NPCs interact, then yes, it would definitely be nice to see more interaction between a few NPC pairs, like Valygar/Mazzy, Keldorn/Mazzy, LG Anomen/Mazzy (like actually apologizing for being so rude to her).

If you mean "relationships" in the romantic sense, that's a minefield. Everyone has their own preference about NPC/NPC relationships. For mod NPCs, I like them, but for BioWare, I think the ones that are already in the game cover the bases well enough.

Mazzy is obviously attracted to Valygar, but to my mind, he does nothing to encourage her. Maybe this could be expanded a bit, perhaps, but I don't think it should go far, and it wouldn't end well. Perhaps Mazzy's attraction could be underlined a bit; perhaps he reminds her of Patrick. In the end, I think he'd still reject her, though, especially once he realized the true nature of her feelings for him. It takes a very special kind of woman for Valygar to overcome his reluctance to become romantically involved, and Mazzy is not that woman. Also, there's the NPC/NPC romance between Darian and Mazzy, and the Mazzy Romance to think about.

And for that matter, there's Mazzy and Korgan. Just about everybody disagrees with me here, but I believe Korgan's attraction to Mazzy is sincere. Maybe she reminds him of a time before a cruel world twisted him into what he's become, and a part of him pursues her in an effort to regain it. I believe his confession to her that he'd try to be a better person for her sake, if she'd have him, is heartfelt, if only because he openly acknowledges the nigh impossibility of it. Again, it wouldn't end well, because Mazzy seems to be repulsed by everything about him, from his grubbiness to his coarse speech to his blatantly ribald comments to other females in the party, but if it was handled adroitly, with a great deal of sensitivity and restraint, it could be fun to watch.

Aerie has her Haer'Dalis. I don't know if she needs anybody more than that, and I don't think anybody but cloyingly innocent Aerie could appeal to Haer'Dalis' jaded libido.

Anomen... does anybody in the party like Anomen? Does he consider anybody in the party worty of his attentions? Not sure there are a lot of possibilities here. There's always the possibility of a same-sex relationship for him, but even then, I couldn't think of any likely candidates.

Cernd? No idea. I don't often play with him in the party, so I just don't know.

Edwin seems defined by his ability to strike out with every female he approaches with an amorous gleam in his eye. The PC can look past that, but there's the Edwin romance for that.

Haer'Dalis: see Aerie.

Imoen has been covered by mods pretty thoroughly. There's the Imoen Romance, Kelsey, Chloe, and one day, Gavin.

Jaheira... It really is best if I don't talk about Jaheira.

Keldorn. Keldorn is a married man, and he takes his vows very seriously. His vanity isn't so supressed that he can't be fooled by Imoen when she appeals to it, but I don't really see him taking a walk on the wild side with Viconia, for example. Though I have to admit that it's possible that their mutual animosity toward each other might be fueled by something more immediate than devotion to their respective gods. It's possible that they do feel a sexual attraction to each other, and that the attraction they feel provokes them both to such hostility, but the possibility is very, very remote.

Korgan: see above.

Mazzy: see above.

Minsc? Who takes Minsc seriously enough to have designs on him? Aerie accepts him as a protector, but she doesn't really have the... er... appetite to appreciate his physique in any other way. Jaheira has no respect for him, and where there is no respect, there can be nothing more. Nalia? I don't know her well enough to say, but I don't see it happening. Mazzy? She's got enough going on, and on some level, I don't think Minsc could overlook the size issue. I think he'd forever see her as a child, even though she really is all grown up. Best not to even think about Viconia. She might find a use for him, but there wouldn't be a lot of romance involved, and I don't think IEP needs that kind of banter. Besides, Viconia would probably never let the PC, or anyone else, for that matter, know if she did take such an unlikely lover.

Nalia? Your guess is as good as mine. I never take her in the party if I can help it. Besides, she's covered already by two Nalia romances and Auren.

Sarevok? I think his scorn for everyone else in the party would prevent it.

Valygar: see above.

Viconia: dunno. I could see her taking lovers to please herself, but the PC would probalby never know about it.

Yoshimo? He holds everyone at arm's length. I can imagine him seeking negotiable affection or indulging in a one-night stand, but I can't see him overcoming his own reserve enough to become intimate with anyone else in the party. By "intimate" here, I include both the platonic and the amorous implications of the word. He doesn't let anyone behind his mask, and it's probably best to preserve that.

Edit: just saw the "No, not romantic ones" subtitle, and now my post is meaningless, but I'll leave it up as tribute to my poor reading comprehension. Besides, there's a little platonic speculation threaded through here and there.

Edited by berelinde, 14 March 2008 - 09:03 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Hopefully there won't be too many romantic relationships, but I can see that more party interactions are better, so I can see some of those relationships berelinde said, but... they don't have to end all badly, because there doesn't have to be a thing, just more deeper friendship. Like the Anomen and Keldorn friendship, it has a turn, a twist, but even the evil things can change because of friendship of a guiding hand, can't they? And perhaps not always for the better.

Now, this mod also coud make it so that the NPCs don't fight with each others better than just that they won't leave the party and start a fight, unless the PC encorages it or doesn't interfere. So more control, in more discreet way.

And of course Anomen needs to challenge Cernd to a beer drinking competition.

[Kaeloree]

I am a bit wary of adding non-canon romantic relationships into the group in this mod (since it is meant to fit in with canon). I'm more talking about other types of relationships, not just friendships. Your post is very interesting to read anyway, b--thanks for posting it!

I've always thought that Korgan/Mazzy was sincere, and have even gone so far as to think about a minimod to add more dialogue into their relationship; eventually decided I'd prefer to focus on other things, such as this and Xulaye. But I've always found such things interesting to think about.

Maybe someone should make an NPC Romance mod?

[Adia]

If you mean "relationships" in the sense that the NPCs interact, then yes, it would definitely be nice to see more interaction between a few NPC pairs, like Valygar/Mazzy, Keldorn/Mazzy, LG Anomen/Mazzy (like actually apologizing for being so rude to her).

That is part of what I was suggesting when I posted over here. Because I could certainly see Keldorn and Mazzy having a conversation about pre-Test Anomen's "boorish" behaviour (and potentially, a romancing-PC chipping in). But I'd definitely like to see development of a friendship between Anomen/Keldorn; Keldorn/Mazzy and potentially Anomen/Mazzy once he has passed his Test and opened up a bit more. Certainly I think there needs to be a post-test conversation between Mazzy and Anomen where he apologises (really does seem missing).

And for that matter, there's Mazzy and Korgan. Just about everybody disagrees with me here, but I believe Korgan's attraction to Mazzy is sincere. Maybe she reminds him of a time before a cruel world twisted him into what he's become, and a part of him pursues her in an effort to regain it. I believe his confession to her that he'd try to be a better person for her sake, if she'd have him, is heartfelt, if only because he openly acknowledges the nigh impossibility of it. Again, it wouldn't end well, because Mazzy seems to be repulsed by everything about him, from his grubbiness to his coarse speech to his blatantly ribald comments to other females in the party, but if it was handled adroitly, with a great deal of sensitivity and restraint, it could be fun to watch.

I agree with you! I enjoyed the small moments there were in the game themselves, and would love to see that extended, even slightly, if not a full romance

[jcompton]

Maybe someone should make an NPC Romance mod?

Romantic Encounters 2: The Voyeur Years?

Korgan/Mazzy: I am a little surprised nobody's brushed off those expunged CG Korgan states in TOB--it seems likely that the "redemption" would have come through Mazzy. I personally don't think it's all that hot of an idea, but hey, at least you've got a few hidden strings to build off of if it appeals to you.

[Solar's Harper]

Well the thing about Korgan and Mazzy despite the cut content over Korgan's alignment change, is that any change in Korgan would take time, and it is unlikely that players would see that during the course of SOA or TOB, namely because he's lived in his self serving ways longer than even Sarevok has... well presumably at least.

Mazzy is probably the best influence for change, all the others Korgan would likely ignore or threaten.

edit: For clarification, I mean drastic changes in behaviour. Minor changes such as relenting from killing a bird simply because it's in the way for example would be a small change in Korgan's persona, he'd probably grumble a bit though.

And of course Anomen needs to challenge Cernd to a beer drinking competition.

Ahh, pays to be evil doesn't it Jarno?

Of course I don't literally think Anomen or Cernd would be bothering with such a thing, they don't exactly like each other, and there is no indication that either of them being interested in a drinking contest - although Cernd is a bit of a rushed character in canon content, and is supposedly some sort of rebel although if you ask me he's nature's bard/paladin hybrid.

Edited by Solar's Harper, 15 March 2008 - 01:44 AM.

[berelinde]

About Anomen in a drinking contest with anyone, I just don't see that happening, given his background. He had an alcoholic, abusive father, and the game is riddled with references to how much he loathes alcohol. He derides drunks, and anyone showing physical debility, like Renfeld, is accused of being drunk.

Although I could definitely see him going on a bender if he fails his test. "All those years of abstemious self-restraint for what?"

[Kulyok]

Romantic Encounters 2: The Voyeur Years?

But... but... he never married Winnie!

Korgan/Mazzy: I am a little surprised nobody's brushed off those expunged CG Korgan states in TOB--it seems likely that the "redemption" would have come through Mazzy. I personally don't think it's all that hot of an idea, but hey, at least you've got a few hidden strings to build off of if it appeals to you.

Oh? (Goes off to search).



@K'aeloree: By the way, there's this old Gaider's Anomen Romance wake up dialogue I expanded and sent you a while ago(must be over a year); this one may be worth including, too.

[Kaeloree]

Kulyok: It definitely will be, when we release Anomen's friendship. That may be a while, though, so--perhaps a minimod might be in order? I'd be happy to put one together.

[Kulyok]

Oh, there's no need - I was just asking.

Anyway, on topic: I think the best relationships are the one that come most easily to the author. If, say, Cernd-Aerie relationship flows under the author's fingers, but Cernd-Jaheira stalls, grinds, and is overall a pain in the nether regions, I'd rather see the author writing for the former than for the latter. (I'm saying this, because I did have lots of trouble with one or two particular pairs in IWD NPC, and I wish I didn't go to such pains making everybody "equal" in terms of content; I think it was more or less a mistake).

[Solar's Harper]

From what I can tell Jaheira reveres Cernd as a superior amongst the druids, he is reluctant to even accept that though which may or may not grate on her nerves as she's often one to accept her place, rather try to than shrug it off as carelessly as Cernd does.

An issue that I know hasn't been made of much highlight is why Cernd allowed himself to become a werewolf rather than pursue the traditional lines of the druids. Although that'd only make one banter and I can't exactly envision Jaheira getting into a huge fuss over Cernd's child, a quiet conflict might happen mentally but it's nothing compared to what someone like Aerie would say.

That's about all I can think of personally, there may be more issues they can discuss, including how differently they view their service to Nature (Jaheira being the more militant one), but aside from that I don't think it would be a good idea to have a banter about picking berries from a bush or something.. best to avoid that as much as possible I reckon.

[Orthodoxia]

I don't know what this counts as but I was a bit surprised that there were no comments form the party concerning Keldorn's accusal of his wife for adultery - either that or I've missed it. Of course, it could also be that they thought it none of their business and kept their mouth shut, but I really liked Keldorn (a likable paladin who'd guessed) right up to the point where he started raging in jealousy.

What I mean to say is, that if it were just a casual fling on the side I'd understand his ire but the fact that sir William was more of a father to his children - remember the stiffness with which his children greeted him - them he himself spoke much more of the situation and the state of Keldorn's and Maria's marriage. There's a good reason why paladins shouldn't marry or be a romantic option - you're always going to come second to their god. Someone should really point that out to him.

[berelinde]

What I mean to say is, that if it were just a casual fling on the side I'd understand his ire but the fact that sir William was more of a father to his children - remember the stiffness with which his children greeted him - them he himself spoke much more of the situation and the state of Keldorn's and Maria's marriage. There's a good reason why paladins shouldn't marry or be a romantic option - you're always going to come second to their god. Someone should really point that out to him.

I don't know about that. I can very easily see Keldorn's anger being greater because Sir William was on such familiar terms with his own children. I don't know a divorced father who can hear his children talk about their mother's new boyfriend without having to supress a lot of anger. Whether he can devote time to them or not, Keldorn is the children's father, and they are his daughters. I imagine any man that would attempt to take them away from him would be in for a rough time.

As for their stiffness when greeting him, they are probalby angry with him for being away so long. Vesper would probably be tickled pink if Keldorn would set her on his knee and tell her some stories or give her a horsie ride around the house, but Leona is a difficult age. She'd probably be sulky and petulant with Keldorn if he was there 24/7.

As for the second part, many NPCs have something/someone that demands more attention than the PC from time to time. Paladins have their duty, druids have nature, clerics have their religious obligations, mages have themselves, etc. Cernd drops his infant son off with relative strangers (he didn't know they were Shadow Druids until the PC told him, don't forget), just so he can follow the PC, but I'd consider that a weakness of character, not a strength. After all, the child is only a baby.

[Orthodoxia]

I don't know about that. I can very easily see Keldorn's anger being greater because Sir William was on such familiar terms with his own children. I don't know a divorced father who can hear his children talk about their mother's new boyfriend without having to supress a lot of anger. Whether he can devote time to them or not, Keldorn is the children's father, and they are his daughters. I imagine any man that would attempt to take them away from him would be in for a rough time.

Than he should be angry at himself for not doing his second duty properly and not at the man who was in fact giving his family what they needed. Of course, I know in that situation that won't happen but someone from the party, not necessarily the PC, pointing that out to him would be...I don't know, realistic. Something along the lines, "And you have been for the past two years where exactly...?"

You are right on all accounts, yes but I've never meant for Keldorn to be corrected or somehow persuaded otherwise. Just pointed out that different side of things.

As for their stiffness when greeting him, they are probalby angry with him for being away so long. Vesper would probably be tickled pink if Keldorn would set her on his knee and tell her some stories or give her a horsie ride around the house, but Leona is a difficult age. She'd probably be sulky and petulant with Keldorn if he was there 24/7.

He asked them each one question to which they answered 'yes father,' and 'very well father'. To me personally it means that his involment in his daughters' lives is non-existent even if they were angry at him at that point.

As for the second part, many NPCs have something/someone that demands more attention than the PC from time to time. Paladins have their duty, druids have nature, clerics have their religious obligations, mages have themselves, etc. Cernd drops his infant son off with relative strangers (he didn't know they were Shadow Druids until the PC told him, don't forget), just so he can follow the PC, but I'd consider that a weakness of character, not a strength. After all, the child is only a baby.

Again you are correct, but if one doesn't learn to balance the two - family and whatever duty they have - than family life can fall apart. Again, Keldorn doesn't need to be miraculously turned to this viewpoint just pointed out what in fact was slowly deteriorating while he was doing good deeds in the wide world. In game it is already nicely settled when PC can choose to give him some leave of absence to be with his family, but did he really learn his lesson?

Cernad could not be a good husband and could not be a good father. Him giving away the child would probably be the smartest thing he had done if the people he had given the babe to weren't Shadow Druids.

And I'll stop here before I turn it in to a marriage-bashing ramble.

[-JR-]

Maybe I'm just too nice, but in my original game, I was willing to let Keldorn, one of my favorite characters, go off to stay with his family permanently. I didn't think it fair to hold him away from it, even if it was his idea to come back after a week. I kind of felt it manipulative to play off of his (arguably misapplied) sense of loyalty to me, when his family was right there needing him. Even the best of us need a push in the right direction some of the time.

He didn't seem to be having too many problems when I checked up on him. It's been years, but if I remember right, I met him near his house later, and he expressed uncharacteristic glee in his preparations to take his daughters to the circus or somesuch.

[Zyraen]

I'm not a person much into commenting on who should be paired with who, but here are some areas of NPC development that I feel are present in SoA yet have not really been explored much. Not all needs to be explored through a relationship, I feel exploration through PC banters are fine also. Bear in mind that I have not installed / played / read through IEP Banters before, so I probably repeated at least a few things that are already in the works.

Anomen - a reality check ; learning to eat humble pie. a romantic interest I feel would give adequate room for that all that. Someone whose nature would make him think of Moira might be interesting. perhaps even... Nalia ? O.O I am not familiar with their inter-NPC banter content in canon, but there's room for interest, given their shared upper-class background, being controlled by their parents (though Nalia not as harshly), and suffering unhappy loss of close ones. they both have similar narrow perceptions at the beginning of the game as well.

Viconia - given canon SoA content about her life on the surface, she seemed to be seeking solace and peace until the farmer rape cum murder episode. what happened to her quest, would she eventually find what she seeks? I don't think in so much of redemption, but in terms of finding her own person and what she wants, as well as maybe some conclusion of the note with her brother.

Mazzy - her feelings about Patrick's death never really mentioned before. also about her considerations in being a Knight, after all enough about her person and objectives have highlighted mention of Mazzy the Paladin mod somewhere. I also feel there's been relatively little explored about prejudice towards a female, short, stocky halfling as an adventurer

Haer'dalis - don't know much about Raelis relationship. its a story fairly well ended, but perhaps more details would be nice, or maybe even continued appearances?

Jan Jansen - after his side quest with Lisa, I think he might mention her more often. he might disguise his hopes for the future as stories pegged with other pple's names. its interesting I feel.

Valygar - seems incomplete at times, I guess the Valygar Romance mod is an indication of interest. Overall he seems to be fairly coherent as of his starting point, anti-arcane personality, but I'm not sure if he settled down into acceptance and possibly learning to embrace his bloodline and continue with it.

Nalia - never did find out if she figured how childish her initial views were.

Minsc / Boo - we never did find out if Boo was for real perhaps this can be manifested in occasional very insightful notes from Minsc, though of course he mentions Boo would be the one to tell him. It might also lead to development in the sense that he might recover from his "brain damaged" condition. a close relationship with Aerie his witch would be nice, though I think a romance can only begin while or after he is showing definite signs of recovery.

Cernd - might be nice to have more of his thoughts on his past associations, like with his deceased wife, and more indication of the wisdom that he seems to possess on his character stats list. however I am not familiar with this character since I almost never play with him in my party.

Korgan / Edwin - more or less comments on other topics cover it fairly well

Yoshimo - with various mods of keeping Yoshimo alive in the works, I think that basically covered what needs to be covered lol.

Jaheira - I would like to know more about how she feels retrospectively about her husband's death

Imoen - probably one of the worst developed NPCs in SoA, no thanks to the DLG bug as well that removed all her banters from SoA. I see her offering strength to others in that cheeky, light hearted mention of things around her. perhaps even mention with one or two close persons about her ordeal under Irenicus in the past. then there's her own murderous side that is rarely ever mentioned in canon except in Spellhold, it would be nice to see her struggle with that as well.

Sarevok - no comment as I almost never play with him in my party.

[yarpen]

I've always been thinking about pair... Imoen and Minsc. Both of them were one of most loyal of our comrades, after her Spellhold episode Imoen looks for strong arm and good word. Minsc could as Zyraen wrote, get a bit better from his brain damage - and trough all of his stupid-hamster-stuff can say a true word of wisdom. I think writing that could be quite a fun, with better english-writing skills would love to do this.

Edited by yarpen, 13 April 2009 - 05:28 AM.