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Flurry vs. Power Attack vs Critical Strike


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#1 Klorox

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:32 PM

Which ends up being the best option in the end? I'm sure somebody has mapped it out mathematically, and I'm not that good at math. ;)

Personally, I just end up going with whatever my initial class gives me, but I'm curious to read all about it!

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Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!

Oh, squiggly line in my eye fluid. I see you lurking there on the periphery of my vision. But when I try to look at you, you scurry away. Are you shy, squiggly line? Why only when I ignore you, do you return to the center of my eye? Oh, squiggly line, it's alright, you are forgiven.
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#2 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:39 PM

Well, all the FAQs I have read say that one should go with Flurry, if you are melee fighter(soldier/scout->guardian), and if you like to sneak around/backstab with Scout or Scoundrel to go with Critical Strike.
Cerberus v1.05, MegaModKits v1.01L, iiSpellSystemAdjustments v7.1; mods by Jarno Mikkola the Imp. FAQ for the Megamods. The Frequently Answered Questions.
BWS - Standard = not imba items spells or cheats. Tactical = AI hardly stupid = stupid hard. Expert = broke.
In case the BG2 game crashes post the content of your baldur.err file. To get it to record stuff, open up the 'baldur.ini' in your game folder with Notepad, and under the [Program Options] section in the file, make a new line and type in 'Logging On=1' (without the '' quotes, unless the line is already there)... Save the file and exit. Now go back into the game and try to reproduce the crash. Then look in your game folder again for the Baldur.err file and open it with the Notepad to analyze its contents, or let us do it.
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#3 Bluenose

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:09 AM

I've finally got round to doing the mathematics for this.

It depends. :devil:

Flurry is usually the best option in terms of doing damage. Interestingly, in terms of damage done there isn't much difference between Improved Flurry and Master Flurry, with about a 10% increase with the latter. That doesn't take into account the reduction in your DV penalty, but that's harder to quantify. Flurry beats Power Attack in nearly all situations, even though power attack is recommended against groups of easy-to-hit enemies flurry still ends up doing more damage - it hits more often, and an ordinary lightsaber hit does an average of 9 damage compared to a bonus for Improved PA of +8 damage. For the best effects from Flurry you want a weapon with a high base damage, so lightsaber crystals that increase that are a good choice.

Critical Strike is more interesting. It's a poor choice against easy-to-hit enemies, worse than the equivalent level of PA. It's a much better choice against enemies who are hard to hit, since there's no attack penalty and you're very likely to get a critical hit when you connect at all. With a weapon that has a high critical range you can really benefit from just one level, with more being rather less useful since you can get into a situation where you can't benefit from the advantage because some rolls that would be criticals aren't actually hits anyway. The chance to Stun targets with a critical hit is very valuable, but there's also a significant penalty to Defence involved. Lightsaber crystals that give bonus damage in the event of a critical hit make this chain of feats much better, possibly even better than Flurry in some circumstances.

One thing to note, it's occasionally useful to make a basic attack. If you're in a group of enemies who are hard to hit, both Power Attack and Flurry have a penalty on the attack roll and Critical Strike has a significant penalty on your Defence. A basic attack has a chance of doing damage without making you more vulnerable.

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#4 Choo Choo

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:26 AM

Flurry. I adore Flurry. In KotOR1 I only use Power Attacks, like.. on the Endar Spire. KotOR2, I only use it on Peragus. Power attacks become obsolete after that. And I *never* use Critical Hits. I don't bother upgrading it. I stick to Flurry. And two weapon fighting.

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#5 Klorox

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 08:45 AM

How do stats factor into these equations? I mean, a high DEX character probably benefits from Power Attack, and a high STR guy probably benefits a ton from Critical Strike and Flurry (a really neat combo, BTW, if you ask me, even more so if you're a Scoundrel: Stun the enemy > more likely with a high STR > Flurry the stunned enemy > tons of damage since you have sneak attack damage on every strike!!).
Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!

Oh, squiggly line in my eye fluid. I see you lurking there on the periphery of my vision. But when I try to look at you, you scurry away. Are you shy, squiggly line? Why only when I ignore you, do you return to the center of my eye? Oh, squiggly line, it's alright, you are forgiven.
? Stewie Griffin

#6 Bluenose

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:48 AM

How do stats factor into these equations? I mean, a high DEX character probably benefits from Power Attack, and a high STR guy probably benefits a ton from Critical Strike and Flurry (a really neat combo, BTW, if you ask me, even more so if you're a Scoundrel: Stun the enemy > more likely with a high STR > Flurry the stunned enemy > tons of damage since you have sneak attack damage on every strike!!).


I certainly agree about the Critical Strike/Flurry combination for a Scoundrel. That's a very good combination, especially for a Scoundrel/Guardian focused on strength.

In my analysis, stats don't really figure in much. They get included in so far as they affect accuracy of your attacks and the average damage you do. That doesn't really make much difference to the effective result though. Power Attack (and Power Blast) are useful only really when the weapon you're using doesn't do much average damage. Otherwise Flurry (and Rapid Shot) work better. The break-even point is when your weapon's average damage is close to the bonus you'd get from a power attack. That comes with an unenhanced light-saber, but a lot of the powerful weapons you pick up in the game are as good, and some upgraded blaster pistols are comparable. Power Attack just isn't as good offensively as Flurry. Critical strike is different, sometimes better and sometimes worse. The maths works the same way for the missile feats, with Rapid Shot and Sniper Shot being you're better choices, though since missile weapons generally don't do as much damage as melee weapons Power Blast is more useful.

Back from the brink.

Like RPGs? Like Star Wars? Think combining the two would be fun? Read Darths and Droids, and discover the line "Jar Jar, you're a genius".

These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.


#7 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:53 AM

How do stats factor into these equations?

Well, in general it's all about the average damage, so you just make a good guess of the opponents defense figures, take a char that you have made(stats etc.) and you imagine that you have chosen the force powers/feats and add the modifiers to the attacks etc. A good calculation example, if only he had used two-bladed lightsaber, he would have gotten as different result. :whistling:
Cerberus v1.05, MegaModKits v1.01L, iiSpellSystemAdjustments v7.1; mods by Jarno Mikkola the Imp. FAQ for the Megamods. The Frequently Answered Questions.
BWS - Standard = not imba items spells or cheats. Tactical = AI hardly stupid = stupid hard. Expert = broke.
In case the BG2 game crashes post the content of your baldur.err file. To get it to record stuff, open up the 'baldur.ini' in your game folder with Notepad, and under the [Program Options] section in the file, make a new line and type in 'Logging On=1' (without the '' quotes, unless the line is already there)... Save the file and exit. Now go back into the game and try to reproduce the crash. Then look in your game folder again for the Baldur.err file and open it with the Notepad to analyze its contents, or let us do it.
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#8 Klorox

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 10:29 AM

How do stats factor into these equations?

Well, in general it's all about the average damage, so you just make a good guess of the opponents defense figures, take a char that you have made(stats etc.) and you imagine that you have chosen the force powers/feats and add the modifiers to the attacks etc. A good calculation example, if only he had used two-bladed lightsaber, he would have gotten as different result. :whistling:

So, you think the double blade is better than a long & short lightsaber. Why?
Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!

Oh, squiggly line in my eye fluid. I see you lurking there on the periphery of my vision. But when I try to look at you, you scurry away. Are you shy, squiggly line? Why only when I ignore you, do you return to the center of my eye? Oh, squiggly line, it's alright, you are forgiven.
? Stewie Griffin

#9 10th

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:00 AM

It's quite simple:

Normal Lightsaber: 2D8+modifiers
Short Lightsaber: 2D6+modifiers

compared to:
Double Lightsaber: 2D10+modifiers

Higher base damage in both hands.
It may have a lower critical threat range, but you have to consider the fact that you don't have to spread your best crystals among two lightsabers.

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#10 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:49 AM

Higher base damage in both hands.

Exactly, but then again the critical hit's weren't even stressed. But then you need to lower the BAB by 2(10%) or with one(5%) if you use double bladed, and sum the critical hit damage separately. Akin to:
W MasterFlurry AND Speed, Two Weapon:
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
Short +8, 2d6+2, 30%*9= 2.7
LCritHit(natural 20's) 4*10%*11*2= 8.8
SCritHit 10%*9*2= 1.8

Total 30.9 (25.6)
:D

W MasterFlurry AND Speed, One Weapon
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 55%*11= 5.5
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 55%*11= 5.5
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 55%*11= 5.5
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 55%*11= 5.5
CritHit 4*10%*11*2= 8.8
Total 30.8 (28.6) :P
PS, I refuse to remember the correct calx for Double Bladed light sabre.

Edit, sorry for the mess of edits:
W MasterFlurry AND Speed, Double Blade
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 45%*13= 5.85
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 45%*13= 5.85
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 45%*13= 5.85
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 45%*13= 5.85
Sabre +8, 2d10+2, 35%*13= 4.55
CritHit 5*5%*2*13= 6.5
Total 34.45 :shifty: 8)

Now I did some calculating and found out that the power attack with one single blade is best... :whistling:

Master Power Attack; -3 to Bab and +10 to damage, thus...
W MasterPowerAttack AND Speed, Two Weapon:
Sabre +7, 2d8+2+10, 25%*21= 5.25
Sabre +7, 2d8+2+10, 25%*21= 5.25
Sabre +7, 2d8+2+10, 25%*21= 5.25
Short +5, 2d6+2+10, 15%*19= 2.85
LCritHit 3*10%*21*2= 12.6
SCritHit 10%*19*2= 3.8
Total 35

W Master Power Attack AND Speed, One Weapon
Sabre +10, 2d8+2+10, 40%*21= 8.4
Sabre +10, 2d8+2+10, 40%*21= 8.4
Sabre +10, 2d8+2+10, 40%*21= 8.4
CritHit 3*10%*21*2= 12.6
Total 37.8

W Master Power Attack AND Speed, Double Blade
Sabre +7, 2d10+2+10, 30%*23= 6.9
Sabre +7, 2d10+2+10, 30%*23= 6.9
Sabre +7, 2d10+2+10, 30%*23= 6.9
Sabre +5, 2d10+2+10, 20%*23= 4.6
CritHit 4*5%*23*= 4.6
Total 29.9


Master Critical Strike, the critical hits happen 3 time more often... So the usual Bab needs to be lowered by 3(15%), while the critical hits gain the same, thus...
W Master Critical Strike AND Speed, Two Weapon:
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 30%*11= 3.3
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 30%*11= 3.3
Sabre +10, 2d8+2, 30%*11= 3.3
Short +9, 2d6+2, 20%*9= 1.8
LCritHit 3*25%*11*2= 16.5
SCritHit 25%*9*2= 4.5
Total 32.7

W Master Critical Strike AND Speed, One Weapon
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
Sabre +13, 2d8+2, 40%*11= 4.4
CritHit 3*25%*11*2= 16.5
Total 29.7

W Master Critical Strike AND Speed, Double Blade
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 30%*13= 3.9
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 30%*13= 3.9
Sabre +10, 2d10+2, 30%*13= 3.9
Sabre +8, 2d10+2, 20%*13= 2.6
CritHit 4*20%*2*13= 20.8
Total 35.1

Notice that this is all subject to review and that it all depends on the AC to BAB ration given and that one needs to take the Master Dueling or Master Two-Weapon Fighting feat, depending on the weapon, to gain the skill level.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 15 July 2008 - 11:49 PM.

Cerberus v1.05, MegaModKits v1.01L, iiSpellSystemAdjustments v7.1; mods by Jarno Mikkola the Imp. FAQ for the Megamods. The Frequently Answered Questions.
BWS - Standard = not imba items spells or cheats. Tactical = AI hardly stupid = stupid hard. Expert = broke.
In case the BG2 game crashes post the content of your baldur.err file. To get it to record stuff, open up the 'baldur.ini' in your game folder with Notepad, and under the [Program Options] section in the file, make a new line and type in 'Logging On=1' (without the '' quotes, unless the line is already there)... Save the file and exit. Now go back into the game and try to reproduce the crash. Then look in your game folder again for the Baldur.err file and open it with the Notepad to analyze its contents, or let us do it.
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