9 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Currently, the difficulty of almost every lock in game is less than 10. Most are a difficulty of 5.

The check is done by taking the thief's open lock skill and adding a random 2-9, then comparing against the lock's difficulty.

So, as you can see, even if you somehow had an open lock score of 0, you'd have a 50% chance of opening any lock. And it's impossible to be a thief and have less than a base 18% lockpick skill. A 5th level thief, which requires all of 10k xp, most of which is given to you just during the process of becoming a thief, and that distributed his skills evenly, should have at least 45% open locks skill.

Again - pretty much every pickable lock in game has a difficulty of -5-. That's -five-.

Would you consider this to be broken and in need of fixing? Or do you think I should assume this was intended and not touch it? That's the choice in this question. Me, I'm thinking they were set that low during debugging/testing of the game and never set back to where they were supposed to be.

The fix I'm contemplating is to multiply the difficulty of the locks by a factor of 10. So that difficulty 5 lock would instead have a difficulty of 50 - which should still be easy for most thieves and a cakewalk for Annah (who comes with 68% lockpick to start with, I believe), but at least it's not absurdly easy.

As it stands, there is no reason to ever pump a point into open locks skill. Just by being a thief you can't fail opening any lock in the game that I'm aware of that can be picked at all.

The traps in game have more reasonable values. Still pretty easy, but not absurdly easy. Not planning on changing those at this time.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 05 September 2008 - 01:59 PM.

[Qwinn]

Just discovered that no, not -all- locks are below 10. There is one in the Alley of Dangerous Angles that is set to 34. Still easy for any thief, though a bit hard to bash (need a roughly 18/50 strength to crack it). So don't worry, it's not going to be a global x10, I will be doing it on a case by case basis, setting it to reasonable difficulty for a thief of the level where you come across the lock.

There's really not that many locks in game anyway.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Okay, here's a list of each container in the game with a lock. Actually, there's more "normal" locks than I thought, though it's still pretty bad. Looks like whoever did them just went through Curst and the Dead Nations, and left everything else at trivial values, and even the hard locks aren't very. Annah at the level you pick her up should be able to easily open every lock in the game, so there's at least no point in putting points in -her- lockpick skill, seems to me. TNO could get benefit out of a few, though.

Hmmm.

AR0104C.ARE  chest  er 1	5

AR0202.ARE  Container 22   5

AR0203.ARE  Container 17   5

AR0203.ARE  Container 8	5

AR0300.ARE  Container 3	5

AR0301.ARE  Container 2 @  34

AR0302.ARE  Container 2 @  9

AR0303.ARE  Container 1	4

AR0403.ARE  Crate 1 r 15   5

AR0504.ARE  Container 1	7

AR0505.ARE  Container 1	8

AR0508.ARE  Entry Shelf	5

AR0508.ARE  Side Shelf	 5

AR0508.ARE  Spilled Jar   5

AR0508.ARE  Nightstands	6

AR0602.ARE  Chest 1 r 2	20

AR0602.ARE  Chest 2 r 3	20

AR0602.ARE  Chest 3 r 7	20

AR0602.ARE  Shelf 8 r 15   5

AR0605.ARE  Container 1	5

AR0605.ARE  Container 2	7

AR0605.ARE  Container 4	5

AR0605.ARE  Container 5	10

AR0605.ARE  Container 12   4

AR0605.ARE  Container 13   3

AR0605.ARE  Container 15   2

AR0605.ARE  Container 17   5

AR0605.ARE  Container 19   2

AR0605.ARE  Container 20   3

AR0605.ARE  Container 23   2

AR0701.ARE  Container 2	45

AR0701.ARE  Container 3	35

AR0701.ARE  Container 5	25

AR0701.ARE  Container 6	35

AR0701.ARE  Container 7	25

AR0703.ARE  Container 3	40

AR0704.ARE  Container 2	30

AR0706B.ARE  Drawer 2  2	7

AR0800.ARE  Container 1	4

AR0800.ARE  Container 2	4

AR0800.ARE  Container 4	5

AR0900.ARE  Container 1	5

AR0900.ARE  Container 4	5

AR0900.ARE  Container 5	5

AR0901.ARE  Container 2	40

AR0901.ARE  Container 3	60

AR0901.ARE  Container 5	50

AR0901.ARE  Container 12   60

AR1402.ARE  Container 1	12

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 01 A	 20

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 01 B	 5

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 01 C	 20

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 01 D	 50

AR1500.ARE  Chest 01  9	15

AR1500.ARE  Chest 02  10   50

AR1500.ARE  Chest 03  11   20

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 02 A 3   15

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 02 B 4   50

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 02 C 5   15

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 02 D 6   50

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 02 E 7   15

AR1500.ARE  Boxes 03   0   2

AR1700.ARE  Container 5	5

AR1700.ARE  Container 6	5

AR1700.ARE  Container 15   3

AR3010A.ARE  dresser r 1	50

AR3011A.ARE  crate ner 1	5

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 05 September 2008 - 05:43 PM.

[scient]

I thought I'd interject that the random value from 2-9 is based on luck and it can range from 0-9. Say you have +3 luck, lockpick would take a random value from 3-9 and add it onto your thief skills value. Luck above 9 gets capped (I don't think that's even possible anyway?)

The same works for bash, except it uses strength level + random luck bonus.

But ya, lock difficulty levels kind of suck and makes lockpick skill pointless. In my cursory look at BG1 the chest/doors level range from 30 (CandleKeep) to 70 with prob some even higher.

In PST, if the lock difficulty is set to 100 it will auto fail regardless of bash/picklock skill level. This is mainly in cases where door requires a key to be opened. I think this is part of IE so the same applies to BG1.

I haven't looked at knock yet but if I recall correctly it can open up anything as long as it doesn't require a specific key.

Edited by scient, 05 September 2008 - 05:55 PM.

[Qwinn]

Well, one thing's for sure... the locks in the mortuary are getting a slight upgrade. The game practically screams hints at you that you -need- the prybar you find on the third floor to open the locked cabinets, and yet even with a strength of 9 you can bash them open. I've heard lots of people complain that there aren't enough puzzles in this game - consider this a "restored" "puzzle".

Stronger characters will be able to bash them open without the prybar, which is good, there's certainly not enough reasons to -not- play the standard 17 wis / 16 int / 13 dex / 11 cha template.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 September 2008 - 01:55 AM.

[Qwinn]

Hmmm. Early testing indicates that having a prybar equipped doesn't seem to confer any bonuses when bashing a container. Clearly it was -intended- to do so, but either it was attempted and bugged or they didn't get around to implementing it.

There's so many hints that explicitly state it should make it easier to open locked cabinets that, yes, I'm putting this firmly in the "fix" category. I've PM'd our resident executable hacker magician to see if it's possible. Hopefully there's enough room in this portion of the executable to make such a fix possible.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Okay, it's looking pretty good. It should be doable to have the prybar give a bonus when bashing. We may do it by just needing to have the bar in -a- weapon slot, and not necessarily need to be the -active- weapon - we'll see. For the moment I'm thinking about giving it the equivalent of a +5 strength bonus, and calibrating the lock difficulty so that you'll have an approximately 75% chance to bash open a lock with either a strength of 14, or a strength of 9 + the prybar. Strength 14 + prybar should open it easily.

It occurs that mages won't be able to use the prybar, as it qualifies as a club. On the other hand, mages have access to the Knock spell, which will thus actually have a use. So I don't think it really poses much of a class balance issue. All 3 classes will have appropriate options for opening containers.

I'm actually looking forward to this change. I realize that PS:T is all about the storyline, but really, it could use some improvement in the challenge department, not to mention class balance. This change will make thieves a tiny bit more attractive to play, which I think is a good thing. And the whole thing in the beginning with all the notes and hints about needing the prybar, only to have it be totally unnecessary, always really bugged me. Always felt like the game was dumbed down from the original intent before release.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

For the record, if anyone wants to know on what basis I'm making this change regarding the prybar in the Fixpack rather than as a tweak, consider the following:

Description of PRYBAR.ITM:

IRON PRYBAR
Damage: 1-6 Crushing
Speed: 4
Weight: 3
Proficiency: Clubs
Usable only by Fighters and Thieves

This iron prybar can be used to pry open doors, chests, and even the occasional reluctant ribcage. It also makes a good bludgeoning weapon when there's no time for subtlety.

NOTE: To use the prybar to force a locked door or chest, select it as a weapon, then "attack" the container or door you wish to pry open. Although the prybar is specifically intended for such use, you can attempt to bash open a container or door with *any* weapon, including your fists.

Other weapons won't give any bonuses (although I'll entertain arguments as to why they should, if someone wants to). At this point I'm considering the normal bash attempt roll to assume that a weapon is being used, and thus no bonus needs to be applied - the bonus the prybar gets represents the -advantage- that using a prybar has over using any other weapon.

And then there's this:

MORTUARY REMINDER MESSAGE
Weight: 0

This rolled up piece of parchment appears to be some sort of message the skeleton in the Mortuary was supposed to deliver:

"This is the third and *last* request for the prybar; if it has been misplaced, *tell* me and I shall go to the Hive market and purchase another. I have no objection to maintaining the Contracted workers, but I've been trying to repair the skeletons, and the bolts are wedged in so tight I can't get them out.

"Also, some of the locks on the storage cabinets on the third floor have become stuck again due to the heat, and I need the prybar to snap them open as well. If the prybar is indeed lost, I will see about procuring the services of a locksmith and having the cabinet locks replaced.

"Your aid in this matter would be appreciated,

An unreadable signature has been scrawled beneath the message.

For this to make any sense given the way it works in the unmodded game, we have to assume the guy who wrote this has a strength of less than 3. (The difficulty on the chest is 5, and as scient pointed out, you get +2-9 luck bonus). Since it's pretty much impossible to have a strength of less than 3 unless you're a small rodent, this indicates "broken" to me.

(Note that in dialogue, to pry the skeletons apart, you need 13 strength -or- the prybar. I'm trying to calibrate the mortuary locks so it works in a similar way.)

I think between these, the original intent is pretty clear, and thus why I'm considering it a fix, not a tweak.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 September 2008 - 05:31 PM.

[Qwinn]

Ok, so let me lay out how I'm going to do it with the mortuary locks, so you can see how I intend to calibrate it throughout the game.

These are the bash percentages based on strength according to the manual (which scient confirmed)

Strength	Bash%
9			   8%
10-11		   10%
12-13		   12%
14-15		   14%
16			16%
17			18%
18			20%
18/01-50		 25%
18/51-75		 30%
18/76-90		 35%
18/91-99		 40%
18/00		   45%
19			 50%
20			 55%

The engine adds a random 2-9% to the bash percentage, so there is a certain amount of luck to it.

Only TNO can use the prybar. scient upon my request has added a bit of code to the engine (it's all done, already in) so that if the prybar is TNO's active weapon when he attempts to bash a locked container, he gets a +10% chance to succeed.

I will be setting the cabinet with the bone charm in the mortuary to difficulty 20. What this means:

9 strength, no prybar = 0% chance of success (8% bash + 9% best luck).
9 strength, prybar = 100% chance of success (8% bash + 2% worst luck + 10% prybar)
14 strength, no prybar = roughly 50% chance of success (14% bash + 6% medium luck). You can try as often as you want.
17 strength, no prybar = 100% chance of success (18% bash + 2% worst luck)

I think that works quite nicely - and note, BG1 had 30 difficulty locks in candlekeep with no prybar available.

I'll be using these sorts of calculations throughout my fixes to the locks in the game. I'll mainly be basing it on the bash percentages, since it'll be significantly easier for a thief TNO (or Annah) to keep a decent lockpick skill than for TNO to have a really solid strength even with the prybar and even with strength spells, unless they're focused as a figher (which frankly makes sense).

Hope everyone will enjoy this, I think it will make the game a bit more challenging and interesting (and will make the various text I quoted above not be meaningless) without unduly interrupting the story of the game Not to mention levelling as a thief not quite the intentional self-nerf it used to be.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 September 2008 - 08:24 PM.

[Qwinn]

One more example for those still not convinced this is properly in a Fixpack... then I'll just shut up about it and finish it

SPOILERS. Beware:

In the house with the Painted Thugs, there's a locked crate. This crate can be opened by a key which can be looted or pickpocketed off the head thug. It is trapped, with a trap difficulty of 50. And the lock has a difficulty of 5. A naked level 1 mage with 9 strength is 100% guaranteed to succeed. Said mage with the worst luck in the world is guaranteed to bash a difficulty 10 lock.

If that ain't broken, I don't wanna play it fixed. If all the hints in the mortuary aren't enough evidence that the lock percentages weren't meant to be trivial, I think -this- easily puts it over the top.

Now, when you first get Annah, she has a lockpick skill of 50% (including bonus from her earrings). I'm giving the lock on this crate a 65 difficulty. Which means Annah needs 6 more points of thieving skill to have any chance of opening it (56% skill + 9% best luck roll).

So you may think, wow, it sucks that Annah can't open the first crate she comes across. To that, I'll add this: first - the crate has a key available, which is always a special case and should make picking the lock more difficult in my view - otherwise, what's the point? Second - she can open it, if you prepare her at all for her thieving duties. If you took a moment to bop down and pick up a Tattoo of Greater Action for her, she'll have 60% skill (and another 10% if you pick up two more +1 dex tattoos), giving her a better than 50% chance each try (and she can try as often as she likes). And if you got your own thief skills high enough to in return teach her, which isn't hard (10k xp total - level 5 - as a thief is enough to get all skills high enough to train her in everything) that's another 5%, meaning guaranteed success. So if you just got her the +2 tattoo, you have like a 50% chance for Annah to unlock it. A second +1 Dex tattoo, or teaching her what you know about picking locks, increases it to 100% chance of success. Teaching her also generally gets her to 5th level as a thief, so you can add points then if you like. You've also got a good chance of levelling her when you go fight the mage upstairs, and can unlock it on your way down. Finally, she can always try to stealth and pickpocket the key from the head thug. In other words, there's plenty of opportunities for TNO or Annah to deal with it -as- thieves, but it's not going to be automatic success... preparing her properly will actually be rewarded, as it should be.

This is consistent with the difficulty of the trap as compared to her starting skills. She starts with 40% disarm, and the trap has a difficulty of 50. So if you don't prepare her at all, she won't be able to disarm the trap either, but preparing her at all will give her a chance (or guarantee) to do so.

The difficulty is too high to easily bash, but then the "fighter" option of dealing with it is to kill the thugs and get the key. And the mage TNO can cast Knock as usual, or also kill the thugs.

Obviously, I'm putting a lot of thought into what's a good value for each lock, so I'm hopeful that folks will feel this will be a good fix to the game.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 September 2008 - 10:31 PM.