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[aVENGER]

Note: This topic has been archived and locked. Any further discussion should go into the new threads.

As some of you may know, I'm currently working on the third (and hopefully final) revision of my Rogue ReBalancing mod. Among other things, it will include a final revision of the high level abilities for the Bard and Thief classes.

In the past revisions, I have tried to create a viable replacement for the Traps HLAs which Bioware originally gave to Bards. The reactions to this were mixed, and some people preferred the old HLAs to my changes for various reasons, though most of them stated that my HLAs were simply not useful enough, especially for the solo players. So, I decided to make one final revision which should rectify the past errors and hopefully provide some interesting possibilities.

These High Level Abilities which I offer now are loosely based on the 3.5e D&D rules and some suggestions I have received from fellow players/testers by e-mail and from this forum. In addition, I'll make the revised Bard and Thief HLAs optional and fully separate from the rest of my mod components in the next mod revision so the players can choose for themselves which ones they want to install.



Mass Charm (loosely based on 3.5e Mass Suggestion)

Range: Visual range of the caster
Duration: 5 rounds
Casting Time: 5
Area of Effect: 30 feet radius
Saving Throw: Special

By focusing his willpower the Bard influences the actions nearby creatures by suggesting a course of activity. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out and break the enchantment. If a common language is shared, the Bard can generally force the subjects to perform as he desires, within the limits of their abilities. If no common language is shared, the character can communicate only by using basic commands, such as "Come here," "Go there," "Fight," "Stand still" etc. The creatures can attempt a saving throw vs. spells in order to avoid being controlled, but even if they succeed, there is still a 50% chance that they will suffer a mental breakdown. This will effectively cause them to enter a Berserk state (no save) and attack the nearest creature for one round.

Note: This is a supernatural spell-like ability, therefore it completely ignores any magic resistance of the subject creatures. Specific effect immunities (like the Elven innate Charm resistance) still apply while Undead, Constructs and Demonic creatures are completely unaffected by this ability. Anyone who successfully resists or frees himself from the Bard's control is much less suspectable to fall for it again, at least for a while.



Enthralling Melody (loosely based on 3.5e Mass Fascinate)

Range: Visual range of the caster
Duration: 5 rounds
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: 30 feet radius
Saving Throw: Special

While the Bard softly hums this catchy tune, he can amaze and enthrall any audience, even those that do not understand his language. Listeners in the area of effect must successfully save vs. paralyzation or give the Bard their undivided attention, totally ignoring their surroundings. Even enemies become stunned in amazement for 5 rounds if they fail their save. In addition, even if the saving throw is made there is still a 50% chance that opponents will become so deeply immersed into the hypnotic song that they effectively become stricken with Feeblemindness (no save) for 1 round.

Note: This is a supernatural spell-like ability, therefore it completely ignores any magic resistance of the subject creatures. Specific effect immunities still apply while Undead, Constructs and Demonic creatures are completely unaffected by this ability. Anyone who successfully resists or frees himself from the enthralling effect is much less suspectable to fall for it again, at least for a while.



Sound Burst (loosely based on the 3.5e spell)

Range: Visual range of the caster
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: 30 feet radius
Saving Throw: Special

The Bard magically amplifies the capabilities of his musical instrument in order to fill hi surroundings with high pitched, stone shattering Sound Waves. Creatures in the nearby area take 15d6 points of magic damage and are also deafened for 5 rounds. (A deafened creature has an effective 50% chance of spellcasting failure.) A successful save vs. breath halves the damage and negates the deafness.

Note: This is a supernatural spell-like ability, therefore it completely ignores any magic resistance of the subject creatures.



Lingering Song (loosely based on the 3.5e feat)

Requires: Enhanced Bard Song

Once a Bard's musical talents have reached a significant level, his music can stay with the listeners long after the last note has died away. After the Bard stops playing, the effects of his or her song last an additional 2 rounds.



Crippling Strike (loosely based on the 3.5e ability)

An experienced Rogue can use the knowledge of his opponents' weak spots to gain an advantage in combat. For five rounds after this ability is activated, every attack of the Rogue deals a devastating blow that weakens an enemy. Any time the Rogue makes a successful attack he deals maximum damage, the Strength score of his victim is lowered to 10 (save vs. death to avoid) for 5 rounds, and there is also a 50% chance that the opponent will be Slowed or Blinded for 3 rounds (no save).

Note: This is a supernatural spell-like ability, therefore it completely ignores any magic resistance of the subject creatures. Crippling Strike can be applied to each opponent only once.



Special Notes:

• Blades don't get Enhanced Bard song and Lingering Song. Instead, they gain the Whirlwind and Crippling Strike HLAs.
  
• Bonuses from the Bard songs of the same type no longer stack, i.e. five Skalds singing will no longer net a 20 point bonus to damage...etc.
  
• Mass Charm and Enthralling Melody have a 5 round 'cooldown' period. This means that you won't be able to repeatedly charm/stun the same opponent(s). It was done for balance reasons.

If you are interested, please share your thoughts on these new HLAs. They are open for discussion, and not yet in final stages, as the next revision of my mod should be finished by the end of the next month.

[T.G.Maestro]

As far as some of those HLAs were my suggestions , I can send You the original files for them. They worked out very well in my games, and they were already tested by some other players. (They will be included to a new mod that will come out in time, and will have an alternate revision/replacement for all HLA tables, including thieves and bards. It would be more comfortable to "synchronize" our tables, and use the same spells/abilities.


Bard HLAs:

Mass Charm
(Enchantment/Charm)
Level: Quest
Range: Visual sight of caster
Duration: 5 rounds
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: 30 foot radius
Saving Throw: Neg.

The Mass Charm spell is the improved version of the wizard spell Charm Creature, only available for Bards. It enables the caster to control the actions of any creature in the area while the spell is in effect. This effect can only be reversed by dispel magic. Every target gets a saving throw vs. spell at -2 in order to avoid the effect.

***

Phantasmal Killer (Illusion/Phantasm)
Level: Quest
Range: Visual sight of caster
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: 1 Creature
Saving Throw: Neg

The bard can use this spell to awake his opponents most horrid nightmares. The vision is so real and terrifying, that if the target creature fails its saving throw vs. spells with a -2 modifier, it immediately dies. Even if the saving throw is successful, the victim will become berserk because of the horrible experience and will attack the nearest creature (be it friend or foe) for 3 rounds.

***

Sound Burst (Evocation)
Level: Quest
Range: Caster
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: 30-foot radius
Saving Throw: Special

One of the Bards deadliest weapons is his/her voice. High level Bards have the ability to focus their voice in a massive burst of sound with devastating effects. Every creature around the caster suffers 10D6 points of damage (save vs. breath for half) and becomes deafened for 1 turn (no save). If someone fails his saving throw vs. spell at -2, immediately becomes stunned for 2 rounds or until dispelled. This spell won't affect party members.

***

Magic Flute
This ability creates a magic flute made of pure magical energy. When played, the flute can be used to cast the following spells:
Remove Fear (Party) - 3 charges
Mislead - 2 charges
Prismatic Spray - 1 charge

The spell-like abilities on the Flute are used in the same way that a wand's powers are used. The Flute lasts for 1 day.

[T.G.Maestro]

And here are some HLas for the thief class:

Dirty Fighting
A skilled thief can focus its attacks to cripple enemies in many ways. For two rounds the thief's every succesful attack will either blind (50%) or slow (50%) the target creature for 4 rounds. There is no saving throw versus the effects of this ability.
However, when using this feat the thief's Attack rolls suffer a 2 points penalty and the damage is reduced by 5 points as well.

***

Improved Dirty Fighting
A skilled thief can focus its attacks to cripple enemies in many ways. For two rounds the thief's every succesful attack will either blind (50%) or slow (50%) the target creature for 4 rounds. There is no saving throw versus the effects of this ability.
The thief has no penalties on his/her Attack Rolls and damage.

***

Greater Evasion
A more powerful version of Evasion, this ability is only available to thieves and monks. It decreases AC by 4 and adds 3 to all saving throws. In addition, Greater Evasion allows one to move so quickly that his movement rate is increased by 2 and always escapes breath spells and spell-like abilities (only takes half damage). Greater Evasion lasts for 5 rounds.

Requires: Evasion

***

Scribe Scrolls
This ability allows a rogue or a mage to create low and mid level spell scrolls. The scrolls that the one can create are randomly chosen from the following list:
1) Magic Missile
2) Fireball
3) Dispel Magic
4) Invisibility 10' Radius
5) Stoneskin
6) Confusion
7) Cone of Cold
Invisible Stalker
9) Pierce Magic

[aVENGER]

Hi T.G.! Long time no see...erm read.

Yes, after reading some of the comments from the other players and checking out the new 3.5 SRD, I decided to give them a chance after all. (makes note to reserve a BIG place for T.G. in the credits section).

BTW, which mod are you referring to and will it alter all of the HLAs in the game or...? Anyway, the thief abilities which you suggest sound ok, though I'm strictly against having 'Improved' variants of standard abilities. Think about it...what's the purpose of (lesser) Whirlwind but to select it one single time in order to gain access to Greater Whirlwind IMO, it's just another example of the rushed and ridiculous Bioware design decisions. Also, I think Blucher already covered the Scribe Scrolls/Alchemy HLAs so I decided to stay away from them.

Oh and, if you are looking for some adittional references, check out the oficcial 3.5e D&D SRD. Lots of fun stuff there, and it's completely free!

[T.G.Maestro]

My apologies for being a bit fast, and forgot to greet an old friend: Greetings aVENGER!

That mod will be my common project with Littiz. It is mainly about balancing things. It will bring a few new kit, offer an alternate (or changed) HLA table for all class, change some spells, abilities, and add an optional replacement for many of the .cre files of the original game +some player made mods out there (this part is still under consideration, since it will require permission from the authors). It will come in two or three parts, the first one will contain those HLAs as well.

"Think about it...what's the purpose of (lesser) Whirlwind but to select it one single time in order to gain access to Greater Whirlwind IMO, it's just another example of the rushed and ridiculous Bioware design decisions."
- I wouldn't go that harsh against those 'impeoved' abilities there! You know, I think there is another aspect for those spells and alikes: to get a really good HLA, you must spend a point (or 2) in a less useful ability. This makes sense in the end, since even in real life, you can't be an expert in something in no time, you'll have to practice and be less skilled for a while. Therefore I think there is a good reason behind abilities like Whirlwind and such.

[aVENGER]

That mod will be my common project with Littiz. It is mainly about balancing things. It will bring a few new kit, offer an alternate (or changed) HLA table for all class, change some spells, abilities, and add an optional replacement for many of the .cre files of the original game +some player made mods out there (this part is still under consideration, since it will require permission from the authors). It will come in two or three parts, the first one will contain those HLAs as well.

Sounds very good! Oh and, I'll definitively consider the synching of the HLAs, although I'm rather fond of the current selection. B) I think, with a bit more tweaking, they could make the game much more fun.

I wouldn't go that harsh against those 'impeoved' abilities there! You know, I think there is another aspect for those spells and alikes: to get a really good HLA, you must spend a point (or 2) in a less useful ability. This makes sense in the end, since even in real life, you can't be an expert in something in no time, you'll have to practice and be less skilled for a while. Therefore I think there is a good reason behind abilities like Whirlwind and such.

IMO, it would be ok if the prerequisite abilities were a bit more involved, i.e. if you needed 5 levels of Whirlwind in order to get Greater Whirlwind. As they stand right now, I think it's really pointless.

[T.G.Maestro]

"I'll definitively consider the synching of the HLAs, although I'm rather fond of the current selection."
- Good to hear that you are willing to cooperate in this one. In the following one-or-two weeks we will come to an agreement, I'm sure .

By the way: is there any improvements on the storyline and quest around the Chosen of Cyric encounter or is it still the previous beta?

[aVENGER]

The story is nearing completion, although I was forced to put it all into that one encounter instead of making a quest. Blame my lack of time and various IE issues... I have about 95% of the dialogue written and about 60% of it scripted.

BTW, concerning the HLAs, I tried to make them loosely based on the 3.5E abilities, hence the descriptions. You can find those in the SRD that I've linked above ^

[aVENGER]

I'm now in the process of finalizing the HLA section so if anyone else has something more to add better do it fast! BTW, I have also revised my Weapons Display ability for the Blade kit:


Weapons Display

By whirling a melee or hurled weapon about his body, a Blade can affect the morale and courage of others. Such a display of skill, precision, and deadly grace automatically lowers opponents' morale incurring a 2 point penalty to hit (no save) and often frightens weaker enemies (save vs. spells) causing a morale failure, which forces them to either run away in fear or enter a berserk state and engage the nearest creature (whether friend or foe) in melee combat. This act also inspires allies, giving a +1 bonus to their attack rolls. The display must occur for a full round without interruption. During this time, any successful attack upon the Blade, or failed saving throw by the Blade, disrupts the display.

Note: This is a supernatural spell-like ability, therefore it completely ignores any magic resistance of the subject creatures. Undead, Constructs and Demonic creatures are completely unaffected by the Weapons Display. Also, someone who has recently witnessed the display will not likely be impressed by it again, at least for a while. The effectiveness of this ability improves as the Blade gains more levels. The bonus to attack roles of allies and the saving throw and the attack roll penalty of the enemies increase by one point per ten experience levels of the Blade, i.e. +2 at level 20, +3 at level 30 up to +4 at level 40. The morale failure always lasts for three rounds, but the duration of the other effects increases by 10 seconds per ten levels.


On a side note, I have changed the damage of Sound Burst to 15d6 so it now matches the middle damage of range the Thief trap HLAs (except it has a saving throw).

[T.G.Maestro]

Hi there!

I would like to ask for your permission in using your newest HLA table for bards in our mod. It will solve the problems of synching the different HLA selections, and I find most of your/my new HLAs really nice.
Some comments though:

Enthralling Melody:
- I would advise to make the bard stuck to the spot and unable to attack or take any action while the spell is in effect. Since it is difficult to play that tune, it would be reasonable to make the bard concentrate only on this one.

Crippling Strike:
- that 5 round duration is very high. Imagine a high level kensai-thief as he cripples each and every opponent, lowering their STR to 10 and blinding/slowing them, plus, this is a 5 round long Kai ability! I say the duration should be maximized at 2 rounds.
An other possible balancing effect could be a moderate THAC0 reduction (around 4-5 points) until this ability expires, since it requires perfect targeting.

Lastly I would still advise to include the Phantasmal Killer ability to bards.

[aVENGER]

I would like to ask for your permission in using your newest HLA table for bards in our mod. It will solve the problems of synching the different HLA selections, and I find most of your/my new HLAs really nice.

Heh, of course you have the full permission to use my HLAs T.G. just as long as you don't forget to mention me somewhere in the readme. BTW, the spell files are done and I can send them to you via e-mail if you wish but...could you per chance wait with the implementation until I publish v3 (should be done in a week or so) just in case I decide to change something on the fly. You are free to test them in the meantime, should you desire to. Also, some of the HLAs require other components from my mods, i.e. Mass Charm requires a few EFFs from my Elven Charm/Sleep resistance fix, the Lingering Song requires my versions of the Enhanced Bard/Skald/Jester songs...etc, so I need some time to discern all the files that I need to send you.

Enthralling Melody:
- I would advise to make the bard stuck to the spot and unable to attack or take any action while the spell is in effect. Since it is difficult to play that tune, it would be reasonable to make the bard concentrate only on this one.

Hmm, an interesting idea...I'll think about it some more when I start my playtesting session as I haven't had a chance to try the abilities in actual gameplay. Also, note that none of my HLAs have a saving throw penalty and save vs. death is usually harder to beat than a save vs. spells. At best, I think I might add a 6 second delay via 'Burning Hands overlay' effect.

Crippling Strike:
- that 5 round duration is very high. Imagine a high level kensai-thief as he cripples each and every opponent, lowering their STR to 10 and blinding/slowing them, plus, this is a 5 round long Kai ability! I say the duration should be maximized at 2 rounds.
An other possible balancing effect could be a moderate THAC0 reduction (around 4-5 points) until this ability expires, since it requires perfect targeting.

Good points, I could limit the duration to 18 seconds then (3 rounds), but I won't implement a to hit penalty though. Thieves already have a pretty sucky THACO, especially when one considers the ToB monsters. BTW, the 50% chance of Slow or Blind on each hit is a combined effect, meaning that the ability has a 25% chance of Slowing the target, a 25% chance of Blinding it and a 50% chance of doing nothing. The Blind and Slow effects are mutually exclusive, i.e they can't happen on the same hit. Also note that I've planned for this ability to affect each creature only ONCE - on the first hit, i.e. any further hits on the same opponent would cause no ill effects to it, but a hit on a different opponent would work properly.

Lastly I would still advise to include the Phantasmal Killer ability to bard

Well, I kind of feel that Bards already have enough abilities, Thieves in comparison gain only one so I'd rather add another one for them...if I do it at all. You can always add it in your own mod though. B)

[T.G.Maestro]

Heh, of course you have the full permission to use my HLAs T.G. just as long as you don't forget to mention me somewhere in the readme

Hehh, thank you for that one! I'll put your name in the "Thank You..." section right after my Mother..

BTW, the spell files are done and I can send them to you via e-mail if you wish but...could you per chance wait with the implementation until I publish v3

Good, I would like to try them. Don't worry about the release date: if it takes a bit more than one month, there will be no troubles at all.

At best, I think I might add a 6 second delay

Either that or a simple stun effect (like at elemental summoning spells) would do the trick. Since it is a confusing effect on the opponents, other party members should be more than able to safeguard the bard while he/she is playing.

I could limit the duration to 18 seconds then (3 rounds), but I won't implement a to hit penalty though. Thieves already have a pretty sucky THACO, especially when one considers the ToB monsters

True, the reduction of the duration is well enough.

the 50% chance of Slow or Blind on each hit is a combined effect, meaning that the ability has a 25% chance of Slowing the target, a 25% chance of Blinding it and a 50% chance of doing nothing. The Blind and Slow effects are mutually exclusive, i.e they can't happen on the same hit. Also note that I've planned for this ability to affect each creature only ONCE - on the first hit, i.e. any further hits on the same opponent would cause no ill effects to it, but a hit on a different opponent would work properly

Thank you for this clarification, it looks much better now.

Ans one another question: what icons do you use for your mod? Do you import them from IWD(1-2) or edit the existing ones? Since our mod features revisions to all classes (I plan to do it for kits as well), I have a slight trouble when it comes to in-game icons. I have chosen the most fitting icon to each spell and ability, but it would be much more better to use new ones.
So how do you do this?

[Littiz]

forgot to log

[aVENGER]

T.G Maestro wrote:

Good, I would like to try them. Don't worry about the release date: if it takes a bit more than one month, there will be no troubles at all.

No problem, I just have to finish up the .2DAs, sort out the EFFs (there's a dozen of these or so) and update my TP2. That should be done in a few days at most, unless ToEE (which I'm getting this afternoon) completely dominates my week willpower. *casts Chaotic Commands on self*

Either that or a simple stun effect (like at elemental summoning spells) would do the trick. Since it is a confusing effect on the opponents, other party members should be more than able to safeguard the bard while he/she is playing.

Yeah, that might do the trick as well, I'll try it out tonight. BTW, during my simulated testing attempts (i.e. I've summoned a dozen of Fire Giants or Gromnir's Gurds via CLUA Console) the ability didn't prove to too unbalancing, as most ToB monsters have a low save vs. death, but when it was coupled with Greater Mallison heh... Also, note that both Mass Charm and Enthralling Melody have a 5 round 'cooldown' period after the first casting (no matter if the enemies were stunned/charmed or not), meaning that you can not repeatedly cast them to charm/stun everything on the screen (that would be very cheesy IMO).

Ans one another question: what icons do you use for your mod? Do you import them from IWD(1-2) or edit the existing ones? Since our mod features revisions to all classes (I plan to do it for kits as well), I have a slight trouble when it comes to in-game icons. I have chosen the most fitting icon to each spell and ability, but it would be much more better to use new ones. So how do you do this?

Well, I'm currently using some 'hidden' BG2 icons as I encountered a few problems with implementing the IWD2 files (see my thread in the IE Help forum) but you are free to use the IWD2 art, it looks much better anyway.

Littiz wrote:

Synch problems would remain anyway, as probably all thief charts will be very different. But I agree that all those Bard abilities are very nice, it'd be cool to use them

No worries Littz, I'll send you and T.G. all my 2DAs and my TP2 along with the spell files...once I finally get myself to update them. You can rename the files of my HLAs if you find it more convenient as well.

forgot to log

I use auto-login here, it's much easier

[T.G.Maestro]

Well, I'm currently using some 'hidden' BG2 icons as I encountered a few problems with implementing the IWD2 files (see my thread in the IE Help forum) but you are free to use the IWD2 art, it looks much better anyway.

Well, we are using those icons as well . I plan to take a look at the IWD2 icons and see what I can get out of them.

Synch problems would remain anyway, as probably all thief charts will be very different

Again, we would use the 'bard' table only. For thieves we have different ideas, but one is sure: we will get rid of that cheesy UAI.

QUOTE 
forgot to log



I use auto-login here, it's much easier

Umm...Littiz, welcome to the 21st century pal!

[Littiz]

Hey you've stolen my idea!
I used a “hidden” icon for the special ability of the Sword Angel Kit that will be included in the mod, then proposed the remaining ones to TGM!
So, so far we’ve used:
SPWI204
SPWI906
SPPR706
SPPR316 (not yet, really)

We were considering the rest.
Oh, we need a LOT of BAMs anyway, we have to resign and learn how to create new ones...
we could even change these in the end...

EDIT: about the log thing, it's only that I have WIN 2000 with alternative identities for my mother and my sister, but I have access to those too to keep them working!!

[aVENGER]

T.G.Maestro:

Again, we would use the 'bard' table only. For thieves we have different ideas, but one is sure: we will get rid of that cheesy UAI.

Could you elaborate a bit on your plans for the Thief table, i.e. do you want to revise the Bioware standard HLAs or will you create some completely new ones for each kit separately. Also, do you plan to remove the HLA Traps ?


Littiz:

Hey you've stolen my idea!
I used a ?hidden? icon for the special ability of the Sword Angel Kit that will be included in the mod, then proposed the remaining ones to TGM!
So, so far we?ve used:
SPWI204
SPWI906
SPPR706
SPPR316 (not yet, really)

Heh, from that list above, I only used SPPR706B for my Lingering Song icon (couldn't find a better fitting one). As for the rest, my Mass Charm icon is the standard edition of Charm person (SPWI104B), the Enthralling Melody is currently using SPPR709B, Sound Burst is using SPPR716B and Crippling Strike is using the Ray of Enfeeblement icon (SPWI221B).

BTW,since you are planning on revising a lot of the other HLAs, you might consider importing some IWD2 art, I've been discussing that with Seifer on the help forum, and it seams to be possible, but they don't look quite as they should due to image size issues...

[T.G.Maestro]

Could you elaborate a bit on your plans for the Thief table

For now, some of the original HLAs will stay as they are (Avoid Death for example), some of them are revised (Evasions) and there are 3-5 new ones created for common use (all kits). One special HLA to each kit will be added in the near future.
I plan to GIVE new traps to thieves instead of removing them. In NWN thieves have a pretty wide selection of traps, I will use a few of those abilities. One will be given to the shared selection, and 1-2 unique traps to the Bounty Hunter kit.
Thieves will generally lose UAI and because of this Scribe Scrolls and some of the currently available potions (through Alchemy) as well. This is a great loss, so I'll try to compensate this with a couple of "passive" HLAs (specialization in different types of weapons for example).

Sound Burst is using SPPR716B

Take a look at the icon of Wail of the Banshee! I think it is much more fitting (I used that one to my version of Sound Burst).

you might consider importing some IWD2 art

That seems to be a must-have .

[aVENGER]

Hey guys, sorry for the lack of updates, as I had predicted ToEE is getting the most of my free time at the moment. BTW, just in case you don't know what I'm talking about, it's a new D&D game called The Temple of Elemental Evil and so far, it seams to be the best one I've played in a looong time.

Well anyway, after a lot of failed Will Saves I've somehow managed to turn it off for a few minutes and work on my mod. The abilities are finished as I mentioned, but I'm having trouble with my TP2...namely, I can't get the SET_2DA_ENTRY command to work properly on the WEAPPROF.2DA file. I'm using WeiDU v1.37 and my wording in the TP2 was:

COPY_EXISTING ~WEAPPROF.2DA~                 ~override/WEAPPROF.2DA~
SET_2DA_ENTRY  34   6   1   ~3~

If I have interpreted the WeiDU documentation correctly, this should change the 1 in TWS for Thieves to 3 thus allowing them to put three points into it. But, when I try the same thing for Bards or any of the Kits it fails miserably and often ruins the entire 2DA !? Any advice...or do I have to hop over to the WeiDU support forum and pester Wes about it ?