74 replies to this topic

[fallen_demon]

On second thought i hate Ellesime, she made Irenicus live as a human (a mockery of one, but how she percived humans) and considered it a punishment worse than death, and a human pc dosn't even have the choice to get insulted?

[Kish]

On second thought i hate Ellesime, she made Irenicus live as a human (a mockery of one, but how she percived humans) and considered it a punishment worse than death

What?

The one and only reference to a human in Irenicus' punishment is, "A life no longer than a human's." The fact that so many people look at "made him no longer an elf" and assume he was turned into a human seems just as biased toward one species as they charge Ellesime with being.

[Timbo]

It's not very complicate to define her:

Just some perky elf in a sexy swim suit - looks hot!

and thats it! B)

[Briannandoah]

I am sorry, I am too tired at the moment to really read and understand everything that has been written here before

I never liked Ellesime. And as a Tolkien fan, I really wouldn't compare her with Galadriel. I like Tolkien's elves (usually, they do have their bad sides at times), but I disliked the elves in BGII. Though these 'high gueens' never make any sense to me, anyway.

I don't know what Ellesime could have done to Jon other than what she did, though I think she brushes the deed aside too carelessly. I don't know if I am the only one, but I always thought that Jon still loved her when she did her deed to him, and he tried to keep that love alive, but because his soul had been taken from him, his feelings toward her faded in time. So there could be no remorse, nor could he have ever learned anything from that, because he could not feel and the missing of his soul was eating him inside.

I understand, that it was meant that he had only human soul after his elven soul had been taken from him, but I don't understand where could he have had one? I mean, do elves have a human soul, and on top of it an elven soul? Or did Ellesime take the human soul somewhere and gave it to Jon? Or is it automatic, that when you take elf's soul away, he gains a human soul? What? Because the most logical thing to me was, that Jon had no soul at all after Ellesime had taken his elven soul, and therefore lost the ability to feel. Though I have never really understood the fact, that how one is supposed to live without a soul at all? So I usually tend to avoid the questins in my mind, and just happily play along even when I have different opinions...

[Kish]

I understand, that it was meant that he had only human soul after his elven soul had been taken from him, but I don't understand where could he have had one? I mean, do elves have a human soul, and on top of it an elven soul? Or did Ellesime take the human soul somewhere and gave it to Jon? Or is it automatic, that when you take elf's soul away, he gains a human soul? What? Because the most logical thing to me was, that Jon had no soul at all after Ellesime had taken his elven soul, and therefore lost the ability to feel.

Good questions. Where did you get the idea that Irenicus had a human soul, at any point?

[Briannandoah]

Well, I think I either interpreted it like that (I think it was said somewhere in the game that he lost his immortal soul and became mortal, mortal=human, or so my mind explained it) or it was said either in the game or in some discussion board. Of course it could mean he had a goblin soul etc., which I very much doupt, though

I don't know, I just have had the impression during the whole game, that he either has somekind of soul and 'has become' human, or that he has no soul at all, which really doesn't make any sense to me. That is why I usually just shrug to the matter. Though the thought that you can give/take a PART of someone's soul is also a thing I find hard to deal with, like okay I am going to buy meself a little piece of that soul there... - it goes a bit over the border, even if this is a fantasy game. Like in the end of SoA I get the impression that PC has about 10% of his/her soul left and that is what still has him/her going on, and Irenicus has about 90% of the soul. It kind of trivializes the feeling of the game totally (for me anyway).

Edited by Briannandoah, 21 August 2004 - 10:16 PM.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Combination of these two: "Tortured soul who did something she regretted deeply" and "A woman deeply in love who was betrayed by her lover". As you can see most people voted so...


As for me I voted so too, but what I really want to see is a joinable and romanceable Ellesime as well. If not for ToB, maybe for future BG3, because we all know that it's in the works. Whether it will be Atari, BioWare or Obsidian - matter of time... B)

[Kish]

Well, I think I either interpreted it like that (I think it was said somewhere in the game that he lost his immortal soul and became mortal, mortal=human, or so my mind explained it) or it was said either in the game or in some discussion board.

It's said on a lot of discussion boards. But you realize it's wrong? That "mortal" is nothing like "human"? That the question "where did Irenicus get a human soul" has the very simple answer "he didn't"? That he is no more or less likely to have a goblin soul than he is to have a human soul?

Edited by Kish, 22 August 2004 - 02:31 AM.

[Laufey]

Well, I think I either interpreted it like that (I think it was said somewhere in the game that he lost his immortal soul and became mortal, mortal=human, or so my mind explained it) or it was said either in the game or in some discussion board. Of course it could mean he had a goblin soul etc., which I very much doupt, though

Irenicus lost his soul, or to be exact, his elven spirit. This means he lost his elven longevity, and got a 'life no longer than a mortals' or however Priestess Demin puts it.

However, having a mortal lifespan is not the same as having a human soul, or being a human. Irenicus was never a human, fortunately for all of us 'human' means something else than 'being a damaged elf'.

[Briannandoah]

Then why this big issue over the PC's soul ... if soul and spirit are two different things in FR, how could a divine soul replace the empty space where the elven spirit had been? Sorry, but I am not that well aware of AD&D 'spiritual' matters (if this would be some other RPG I would know more). Or is it just something their cooked up for this game? Oh well, there are lots of other subjects I would like to know or at least I sometimes wonder these things But I guess it is not that a big deal. I just have this tendency to go too deep sometimes with the philosophical questions in these imaginary worlds...

Of course there are all these issues about Jon's scientific experiments also... in some point of the game I felt like I was in the middle of Shadowrun, not AD&D game

But enough for this in this thread. I've already voted and told my opinion about Ellesime. Thank you for the response.

Now I only wonder, that how can an elf live at all without his elven spirit... :bash:

[Laufey]

I'd say that Bioware simplified things quite a lot for the sake of the game, in order not to make the story too complicated. Of course, sometimes the very act of simplifying things can lead to people getting confused.