1190 replies to this topic

[Bronkhorst]

Yes, your right - nothing in the override script. Works fine now.

 

Many thanks for your prompt reply and help.

[Roxanne]

Yes, your right - nothing in the override script. Works fine now.

 

Many thanks for your prompt reply and help.

Thanks for the report - I have modified it now so it hopefully cannot happen again.

[miker17]

forgot to sign in XD

[Roxanne]

forgot to sign in XD

 

 

Heya, i reported this as well long time ago if you remember... glad you fixed it it was pain fixing my self every time i had installed new version of mod. :3

Sorry, I thought this was a single occurance at that time - I now found that a mod actually assigns a script to her which has a longer name than mine which ends up in the one quoted in your original report, when Sandrah assigns hers that gets tweaked into a script name that does not exist - if you clean your game with BWS crefixer she ends up with no script assigned. 

The other mod that does it makes no sense (it is one of those which assigns scripts to all creatures in the game of a certain class, but it is never actually used in game)

The current fix should now settle the case.

Edited by Roxanne, 11 January 2016 - 11:03 PM.

[konva]

Hello Roxanne I would like to ask you about some quest. I talked to elminster in FAI, he told me that firebead has some scroll... so I investigate the scroll went to bonehill and Landrel found me and told me that elminster want to speak with me again. But I completely forgot, due to work, where he mention to be. Could you please help me? Btw before meeting at FAI, Landrel found me and told me that.

[Roxanne]

Hello Roxanne I would like to ask you about some quest. I talked to elminster in FAI, he told me that firebead has some scroll... so I investigate the scroll went to bonehill and Landrel found me and told me that elminster want to speak with me again. But I completely forgot, due to work, where he mention to be. Could you please help me? Btw before meeting at FAI, Landrel found me and told me that.

If you have the scroll meet Elminster at High Hedge.

[konva]

okay thanks

[Roxanne]

Incompatibility issues found

 

Sandrah is not compatible with

1) Might & Guile component 120 Weapon Proficiency Overhaul

- fighter/clerics can use any weapon (Sandrah cannot use any ranged weapons)

- ALL NPCs you meet will be dropped to level 1, TOB-style, and start with selected base proficiencies. They will have the normal amount of XP however, so you can immediately level them up and direct their advancement. This method doesn't work well for dual-classed NPCs (corrupts Sandrah NPC right from the start)

- This component also tweaks the thac0 tables: Rogues' thac0 is buffed, making it equal to clerics.(This affects Jen'lig so that she is not able to use her Githyanki specific equipment and abilities - reducing her to level 1 at the start completely corrupts her as well.)

2) Might & Guile component 180 Magic resistance Overhaul (is not compatible with her features as a Priestess of Mystra - this affects Sanddrah's abilities to act within a number of quests from the mod on top of her general performance in game.)

3) Might & Guile component 200 Revised Stat Bonuses [sic] - Her stats in conjunction with her equipment will become completely unbalanced by these changes, it would require a different cre-version for her and Shauhana (NPC) for games with or without this component.

[Roxanne]

 Sandrah NPC for the BGT_Readme.doc   233K   152 downloads

 Sandrah NPC for the BGT_Readme.pdf   213.03K   230 downloads

 

Updated the readme to reflect that Sandrah is a megamod as a clear warning for people NOT to install it unless they are die-hard masochists

 

*so called 'mega mods'; I'm sure many have their moments and redeeming qualities, but overall they do all seem to be chock full of ridiculously unbalanced content (as well as subpar writing, occasionally horrible typos, grammar, etc)* quote by Ithildur, 15 January 2016, 09:10 AM.

 

The bigger "mega" mods that add more super-powerful spells!! more super powerful magic weapons!! more super powerful enemies!! reach level 30 before starting SoA!!... I think they are generally buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk that affirmatively *harm* the experience of playing the rest of the game. Strip them of all loot, magic, artificially-buffed enemies, and XP rewards and turn them into good quests with interesting characters and well-written stories, and I'll take another look. But for now, '1's across the board.

subtledoctor, 23 December 2015 - 05:41 PM.

 

This pretty much sums it up I guess....

kreso Posted 25 December 2015 - 02:30 AM

Edited by Roxanne, 15 January 2016 - 12:36 AM.

[agb1]

It is unfair to apply these criticisms to Sandrah, a mod that is story and character driven and that even has a balance patch to restore Sandrah's items not because they were originally unbalanced but because tweak mods can make them so.

Seems to me that Sandrah does a lot to improve the experience of other "big mods" also, while creating a continuous narrative around them.

Some typos in other big mods are corrected already in the BiG World text packs. I'm sure that more will be corrected over time. Grammar issues are in part due to text being written by non-native-English speakers. I appreciate that someone made the effort to translate at all.

Has anyone created a new BP Balancer type of mod to correct some of the perceived deficiencies of big mods that BP Balancer does not cover yet? I saw that K4thos rebalanced DSotSC items in the EET compatible update he has prepared, so maybe the same approach for the other big mods would be better in the long run (ie rebalance them while updating for EE/EET compatibility, instead of making a new balancer mod).

[Roxanne]

It is unfair to apply these criticisms to Sandrah, a mod that is story and character driven and that even has a balance patch to restore Sandrah's items not because they were originally unbalanced but because tweak mods can make them so.

Seems to me that Sandrah does a lot to improve the experience of other "big mods" also, while creating a continuous narrative around them.

Some typos in other big mods are corrected already in the BiG World text packs. I'm sure that more will be corrected over time. Grammar issues are in part due to text being written by non-native-English speakers. I appreciate that someone made the effort to translate at all.

Has anyone created a new BP Balancer type of mod to correct some of the perceived deficiencies of big mods that BP Balancer does not cover yet? I saw that K4thos rebalanced DSotSC items in the EET compatible update he has prepared, so maybe the same approach for the other big mods would be better in the long run (ie rebalance them while updating for EE/EET compatibility, instead of making a new balancer mod).

rebalance them while updating for EE/EET compatibility, instead of making a new balancer mod

This is a very good point and this exactly the right moment to bring it up!!!

This topic should be further discussed on the EET thread rather than here. (I put http://www.shsforums...ee/#entry585383 for further discussion of the topic)

In BGT we ended up in (three?) mods that tried to balance the game XPs, items etc in the end and they did it cumulative. For EET there should be a unique convention to say it is either done in the mod (while you never know how a user will install the game with one, more or none of the other megamods) or by a final cleanup mod that does a balancing based on which mods are there.

Edited by Roxanne, 15 January 2016 - 02:32 AM.

[Roxanne]

It is unfair to apply these criticisms to Sandrah, a mod that is story and character driven and that even has a balance patch to restore Sandrah's items not because they were originally unbalanced but because tweak mods can make them so.

Seems to me that Sandrah does a lot to improve the experience of other "big mods" also, while creating a continuous narrative around them.

Even if this defense is well intended, I must object to it.

The verdict against ALL megamods comes from a couple of highly respected game authorities who base their death sentence on careful analysis, extended gameplay and expertise. Their intention is to prevent lesser experienced players from negative impressions of the game we all love.

The megamod taint is something a mod needs to live with just like the protagonist has to accept his/her Bhaal taint.

Some typos in other big mods are corrected already in the BiG World text packs. I'm sure that more will be corrected over time. Grammar issues are in part due to text being written by non-native-English speakers. I appreciate that someone made the effort to translate at all.

Has anyone created a new BP Balancer type of mod to correct some of the perceived deficiencies of big mods that BP Balancer does not cover yet? I saw that K4thos rebalanced DSotSC items in the EET compatible update he has prepared, so maybe the same approach for the other big mods would be better in the long run (ie rebalance them while updating for EE/EET compatibility, instead of making a new balancer mod).

[agb1]

I don't challenge kreso and subtledoctor and Ithildur on their overall expertise. I doubt however that they have analyzed your mod in any great detail, as I have seen no evidence of that. So again, although they said "all" it is not fair to apply that criticism to Sandrah. They also have not reviewed those mods in the context of playing with Sandrah and the tweaks you have included.

I don't deny that several big mods contain unbalanced items and spells and excessive XP rewards. However, I think it goes too far to say that players need to be protected from this. The recommended pre-selection in BWS avoids mods that add unbalanced content or integrate poorly with the original game. For that reason, I do not advocate for the old big mods to become part of the recommended set at this time. On the other hand, the maximized and tactical pre-selections are filled with unbalanced content from smaller mods as well. Avoiding the big mods in those pre-selections hardly eliminates that problem. I view this lack of quality control for the maximized content experience as something we should document and make evident to new players. I also view it as a transition; my goal is to move more mods over time to be recommended, by making them more balanced and better integrated into the original game. Some mods might never fully go this way, but I would like to see us try to salvage the good wherever we can.

[Roxanne]

I don't challenge kreso and subtledoctor and Ithildur on their overall expertise. I doubt however that they have analyzed your mod in any great detail, as I have seen no evidence of that. So again, although they said "all" it is not fair to apply that criticism to Sandrah. They also have not reviewed those mods in the context of playing with Sandrah and the tweaks you have included.

I don't deny that several big mods contain unbalanced items and spells and excessive XP rewards. However, I think it goes too far to say that players need to be protected from this. The recommended pre-selection in BWS avoids mods that add unbalanced content or integrate poorly with the original game. For that reason, I do not advocate for the old big mods to become part of the recommended set at this time. On the other hand, the maximized and tactical pre-selections are filled with unbalanced content from smaller mods as well. Avoiding the big mods in those pre-selections hardly eliminates that problem. I view this lack of quality control for the maximized content experience as something we should document and make evident to new players. I also view it as a transition; my goal is to move more mods over time to be recommended, by making them more balanced and better integrated into the original game. Some mods might never fully go this way, but I would like to see us try to salvage the good wherever we can.

Here are some facts from my past two years with extended expert level BWS supported BGT-installations, all you can install while still expecting the game to be useable (and fun)..

I did about 40 installs (I mean installs that I played over a significant period.)

I played through the whole game including most extensions and megamods 6 times.

I had to abort the rest of the started games for some reason or other

- no game was trashed because of any megamod (if there is an overpowered drow item in chapter 2 - just do not pick it up) - you can always omit and episode or miss an item in the game, no problem.

- I had to abort the game more than 20 tiimes because a number of mods (their names are in the threads of this forum mentioned almost daily) had corrupted the game - whole towns going hostile on my group, spells causing crashes, powerful enemies standing around like sticks, kit mods that copy the same line of trash from each other to corrupt essential game files etc...Or in expert words, issues *that affirmatively *harm* the experience of playing the rest of the game.*

In such a case I always have tried to gather facts, make reports, notify the modders in order to improve the mods and the game.

Despite above frustrating experience I have never accused ALL makers of any tweak mods to produce buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk or worse.

Edited by Roxanne, 15 January 2016 - 04:32 AM.

[agb1]

I think we are in agreement on this.

[konva]

Hello again, just a quick reminder.. I read some tips about Sandrah... I should rescue viconia, but I totally forgot where she is. Isnt she supposed to be at peldvale? If yes, shes not present here

[Roxanne]

Hello again, just a quick reminder.. I read some tips about Sandrah... I should rescue viconia, but I totally forgot where she is. Isnt she supposed to be at peldvale? If yes, shes not present here

Depends which other mods you have installed - if not in Peldvale she is in the area south of Beregost - off the main road in the NW of the area.

[subtledoctor]

Hmm.  I feel I have to address something here.  In another thread, where the OP specifically asked for people to *judge* various megamods (which I specifically called out as being a bad idea)... people responded.  Not everyone had glowing praise to shower upon TDD and NEJ and the like.  Some of the more critical opinions were gathered by Roxanne and posted right here in this thread:

http://www.shsforums...sting/?p=585373

 

Based on her post above, it seems that Roxanne understood those critiques to be related to the Sandrah mod.  Because I was one of the people writing such critiques, I think it's important to set the record straight: I was not talking about the Sandrah mod.  To my knowledge, ithildur and kreso were not talking about Sandrah either.  I have never said a bad thing about Sandrah.  I think it's a marvelous idea as a standalone mod, and based on what little I've seen of Roxanne's skills, it is probably coded very well.  My only criticism of Sandrah is that in order to play it, I have to also have cheesy, unbalanced junk mods in my game that seem inferior to Sandrah.  I wish it were more modular.  (I wish those mods were more modular as well - someone recently mentioned creating a fork of TDD that strips it of all kits/spells/etc. and only presents the *content*... that sounds great to me.)  I think mods in general should be modular, and compatible with each other.  No need to bundle tweaks and item packs with an NPC - surely a better approach is to have various optional components, one for the tweaks, one for the item pack, and one for the character, etc.

 

But I digress.  tl;dr: Sandrah sounds cool, seems high-quality, and I wish it the best.

 

Unfortunately, the story doesn't end there.

 

Roxanne then published an "incompatibility" report about my mod here:

http://www.shsforums...sting/?p=585359

 

Some harsh language there - talk of "corrupting" NPCs.  And from what I can tell, it is not based on actual play-testing, and has several false statements.  Nothing was ever mentioned to me, no reports were ever written about such "corruption" or any bugs on any of my mod's various forums.  This only came to my attention because someone else pointed me here.  Not cool, Roxanne.

[subtledoctor]

So I feel I must address these issues and correct the record, and also ask for more information - as I mentioned, I like mods to be as compatible as possible and I am more than willing to adjust mine to improve compatibility.  I have already made very substantial changes to the coding in one of my mods to accommodate Roxanne's concerns.  But anyway, about Might & Guile.

 

It is a tweak mod.  BOOOOOOO!!!!!  No, actually not boo, it makes changes aiming to increase fun and playability.  The vanilla game deviates substantially from the AD&D PnP rules, essentially comprising a bunch of "house rules." The Sandrah mod involves several "house rules" that deviate from the basic ruleset.  Might & Guile, similarly, can best be thought of as a set of house rules, which some will like and others will not.  Also it adds some stuff that comes *straight* out of the PnP game - mostly kits like the Corsair, the Loremaster, the Meistersinger, and the Gallant.  It does not cause whole towns to be hostile; it does not cause enemies to stand around like sticks; it does not corrupt essential game files.  Occasionally a bug has snuck in the causes a crash (something that happens a lot with NPC mods as well) but I have addressed those issue promptly and I think the mod is in good shape right now.  So hopefully it is not what Roxanne is talking about here:

http://www.shsforums...sting/?p=585386

 

As to incompatibilities, Roxanne wrote this:

Incompatibility issues found

 

Sandrah is not compatible with

1) Might & Guile component 120 Weapon Proficiency Overhaul

- fighter/clerics can use any weapon (Sandrah cannot use any ranged weapons)

- ALL NPCs you meet will be dropped to level 1, TOB-style, and start with selected base proficiencies. They will have the normal amount of XP however, so you can immediately level them up and direct their advancement. This method doesn't work well for dual-classed NPCs (corrupts Sandrah NPC right from the start)

- This component also tweaks the thac0 tables: Rogues' thac0 is buffed, making it equal to clerics.(This affects Jen'lig so that she is not able to use her Githyanki specific equipment and abilities - reducing her to level 1 at the start completely corrupts her as well.)

2) Might & Guile component 180 Magic resistance Overhaul (is not compatible with her features as a Priestess of Mystra - this affects Sanddrah's abilities to act within a number of quests from the mod on top of her general performance in game.)

3) Might & Guile component 200 Revised Stat Bonuses [sic] - Her stats in conjunction with her equipment will become completely unbalanced by these changes, it would require a different cre-version for her and Shauhana (NPC) for games with or without this component.

 

1) The WPO, component 120, edits bladed weapons to be usable by clerics.  They are still limited in proficiency, however.  Multiclass clerics may gain proficiency in weapons their 2nd class can use.  So, you can have a cleric/thief backstabbing with daggers.  This is actually 100% in agreement with the PnP rules in the Forgotten Realms setting.  This also means fighter/clerics can use swords.  Roxanne is concerned about what this means for Sandrah, who cannot use ranged weapons... but I have no idea how that was coded.  Fighter/clerics could always use ranged weapons (slings) even in the base game, so my mod allowing them to use sharp weapons doesn't change that.  Without knowing more about how Sandrah is coded, I can't say how this interacts.  I suspect Roxanne has not actually played with my mod installed (more on this in a second), or she would have more specific information.  If Roxanne uses a special NPC-only kit (lots of NPC mods add kits, even those made by people who trash-talk kit mods ), and her special kit cannot gain proficiency in ranged weapons, then the solution is very simple, install Sandrah after the WPO and she will not be able to gain proficiency in ranged weapons.  Or, if Sandrah uses the kensai or cavalier usability flag or something like that, it should also work fine - the WPO does not change anything with usability flags.

 

When I made the WPO, I took great pains to make it compatible with the most popular NPC mods out there - basically, my mod gives people more proficiencies at 1st level (only up to 1 * though), so I dropped a bunch of NPCs to level 1, with a bunch of new proficiencies, and let the player level them back up and choose proficiencies as they see fit.  I coded each by hand, it was very painstaking and time-consuming.  At the time, Sandrah did not exist.  So, Sandrah is not specifically affected by this.  She is not dropped to level 1.  Nor is Jet'lig.  They are not "corrupted" by this component.  Anyway, I would not use that technique for a dual-classed NPC, because I know perfectly well it doesn't work well.  If Roxanne had actually played with this mod component, she would see that Sandrah is unchanged - and BG2 Imoen and Anomen and Nalia are unchanged.  No "corruption" here. 

 

The WPO does edit thac0.2da - it makes rogues a bit better on offense and slightly modifies the distribution of how much thac0 is determined by level, vs. proficiency.  But, I can't see how edits to the thac0 table could possibly render an NPC "unable to use specific equipment and abilities."  I call BS, unless Roxanne can explain her concern better.

 

So in short, while the WPO makes some serious changes to various game mechanisms (which I make quite clear in a sternly-worded readme warning), if a player wants to use and enjoy those changes, I think they can do so with the Sandrah mod and it will be fine. 

 

2) The MRO, component 180, removes magic resistance from the game almost completely.  Kit abilities, items, enemies, all have MR replaced with other bonuses.  A few small and temporary sources of it remain - Bhaal's Tear, Lum's machine, the Magic Resistance spell, etc.  This component also carries a very sternly-worded warning that it may not be to some players' taste.  But, not being to someone's taste is a very different thing from an actual incompatibility.  If Roxanne has coded in something the relies on the presence of MR, then there may be an issue here.  But, while I've explained what this component does, Roxanne has not explained how the Sandrah mod conflicts with it.  I can't determine whether there is a real incompatibility without more information.

 

3)  Component 200, my stat revisions, change various stat bonuses.  Example, it tries to solve the problem of the inconsistent and generally terrible way the vanilla game uses the 18/xx 'exceptional' strength scores by spreading some of those bonuses to lower values.  Having 14 STR now really means something different from having 9 STR.  It also has two rather experimental things: high Intelligence grants bonus wizard spells to arcane casters, and very high Charisma grants save bonuses and luck bonuses.  These latter bonuses actually don't affect NPCs (where's the sheepish emoji??  I actually need to fix this!) so they don't affect Sandrah at all.  The basic STR, DEX, and WIS bonuses will affect Sandrah... but only to the tune of +1 or -1 damage, or AC, or something like that.  Hardly very much in the grand scheme of a mod that takes you beyond TOB.  While there may be some slight change here (who's complaining about "balance now?") I think if a player wants to use those stat tables in their game, they can do so with the Sandrah mod, according to their preference.  Nothing should break.  So here too, no incompatibility.

 

FINALLY: pointing to her supposed (totally untested) "incompatibilities" Roxanne also asked the BWS people to "please take this into account when updating BWS next time."

http://www.shsforums...ogram/?p=585360

 

I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't sound very nice.  My suggestion to the BWS folks: since Sandrah seems to be in beta right now, and M&G is relatively stable, maybe that means M&G components should be selected by default, and Sandrah should not.  EDIT - ah, maybe that was asking for BWS to add a conflict warning, or something.  But as described above, I think there are no conflicts here and that is unnecessary.

 

Or, you know, people could do actual testing before making such a decision.  In all likelihood they will work perfectly well together.

Edited by subtledoctor, 16 January 2016 - 10:18 AM.