7 replies to this topic

[Miksip]

Quote from refinements readme:

"BG2 Refinements offers new HLA tables for ALL classes and kits, which means this component may
clash with other mods that modify HLA material. A new Kit, both player selectable and "invisible"
(the player may not select the kit, which is typically used for an NPC or as a method to add a new
set of abilities to a character as it levels up) may come with a NEW HLA table"

"Implementing the Use Scrolls ability required some heavy coding, so a few decisions have been
taken in order to simplify the situation a little. Fortunately they also ultimately... make sense.

First, we've decided to make the Wizardslayer/Mage dual class combo "illegal."

Second, Use Scrolls is intended as a "built-in" ability for all kinds of mage/thieves; this is
perfectly normal most of the times, but technically mages who dual to thieves should not have it
until *reactivation* of the mage class.
That is only a temporary condition though, and those are characters that have very little reason
to "forget" that ability: they naturally have it as mages, and they have ALSO the "tendency" to
acquire it as thieves. In a way, it's a "common" feature of the two classes, not an exclusive one
of the mage part.
Now, handling this pathological case as all the rest would require an amount of work absolutely
unjustified for characters who, after all, have so many reasons to know how to read scrolls, and
this decision leaves the code significantly lighter, which is always a good thing."

 

You can see that this code is combination of mage X class X kit X player.
And the more kits you have the more code it adds to baldur.bcs .
I have cut 9418 lines for 148kb which is twice the Baldur's Gate 2 code.
And there is invisible creature following you around which adds those kits too. It is called LI#STRI .
 

My suggestion is simple: remove this code and creature from refinements altogether.

You wasted more time on this Use Scrolls/Use Magical Device bullshit than it worth.

Now it is time to get rid of it.

Edited by Miksip, 05 November 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[subtledoctor]

"Now" is certainly not the time, since you are writing in the forums of a mod without an owner. Refinements has not officially been updated since like 2012. Maybe even earlier - I don't even know.

To the extent you have an issue with the way Use Scrolls (note that name) is implemented, adding lots of kits etc., and to the extent I want to claim any credit for putting work into this mod, I would suggest you use the v4 beta. It adds Use Magical Device (note the difference) and does so without any extra kits, scripting, or creatures. Just be aware, that feature is EE-only.

To the extent you are concerned about Refinements' HLA tables clashing with other mods, you'll be glad to know this is no longer the case in v4 - no matter which engine you install the mod onto.

To the extent you have some other concern that I didn't understand... I didn't understand it. Try to clarify the issue.

Edited by subtledoctor, 06 November 2017 - 09:21 PM.

[subtledoctor]

And there is invisible creature following you around which adds those kits too.
...
My suggestion is simple: remove this code and creature from refinements altogether.
You wasted more time on this Use Scrolls/Use Magical Device bullshit than it worth.
Now it is time to get rid of it.

I guess I need to clarify, since apparently this poster was offended, though I was never notified of it.

1) Now is not the time, because the people who actually coded it have not been reading the Refinements forums or updating the mod in several years.

The one person who has been working on Refinements (me) has actually followed your advice, and removed that code. Not sure why it is seen as offensive when I actually implemented the suggestion to remove the shadow-kit Use Scrolls Engine.

Of course I removed the Use Scrolls Engine for the EE games only, because 1) they contain the technology to make it work without shadow kits; and 2) the EE games cannot have as many kits installed as the old engine with ToBEx (I think, maybe), so adding a bunch of shadow kits is not feasible on the EE engine.

I [/i]may[/i] have figured out a way implement UMD in the EE fashion, on the old engine. But honestly, I'm not sure I want to. Set aside that I just don't have the time... fact is Refinements has been the premiere HLA mod on BGT for years and years. I always used it when I played on the old engine. And even 10 years ago, with much slower computers, I never had a problem with it. So I don't see a real impetus for change.

EDIT - Also, I'm fairly sure the invisible creature doesn't "follow you around" - That would be crazy. It is simply created to run the kit-change script, and then it disappears. So the complaint is factually wrong as well.

Edited by subtledoctor, 13 November 2017 - 06:15 PM.

[Creepin]

I guess I need to clarify, since apparently this poster was offended, though I was never notified of it.

Hmm? The poster was so rude I'm surprised you cared to answer at all, let alone worry about whether he was offended.

[The Imp]

Well, considered the adverse effect the not tweaked mod does to the poster, I see why they were offended. Even if it was supposed, as a false alarm...

@subtledoctor: you sure the creature disappears in every case the mod can run in. See when you get a non fully clear bug report about something you did and can't see the reason for it ?

 

What about a multi-classed AND kit'ted thieves ?!? Does the script anticipate that, for example ? And kill itself if it sees a Berserker/Necromancer/Assassin*

*Assassin being the kit that summons the creature. Yeah, that might just happen.

Edited by The Imp, 13 November 2017 - 09:57 PM.

[subtledoctor]

@creepin - my desire was not to be offensive, so I figure it's worth explicitly saying so.

@jarno - I have no idea; it's not my script. I said when I took on this mod that I would not make substantive changes to it. My only goals were to 1) update it for EE games; 2) allow players to install new HLAs on a class-by-class basis; 3) make the HLA-table handling more compatible with other mods, on both EE and non-EE games; and 4) if possible, figure out a new, more efficient way to code UMD, using EE technical advances.

Aside from that, it should work just like it always did in v3.31. As I said, people have been using v3.31 for years and years, it seems to be in very good shape.

And btw HLAs on a kitted multiclass have a decent chance of crashing the (non-EE) game, so I'm not too worried about that scenario...

[The Imp]

@jarno -My only goals were to 1) ...

Well, you can do that by allowing the UMD to be installed seperately, by making it's own component, indipendent from the other HLA component. As in, most people who disargree with the method will not install it at all... and make it disable the UAI in case it's installed.

And btw HLAs on a kitted multiclass have a decent chance of crashing the (non-EE) game, so I'm not too worried about that scenario...

Let's not worry about a thing that's happening all the time.
Like I insist that I imp- -lied, I am not saying that I don't understand ... it's just that I can see the other view point as well.

And to your consern, I posted on the lag thread that was made, and would imply again that, had the install made according to the advice I gave, would be much smoother, and Miksip would have been less pissed off.

I haven't seen your upload that markets itself to be free of the ...<insert a bunch of bad words>... system.

Edited by The Imp, 13 November 2017 - 11:24 PM.

[subtledoctor]

Well, you can do that by allowing the UMD to be installed seperately, by making it's own component, indipendent from the other HLA component. As in, most people who disargree with the method will not install it at all... and make it disable the UAI in case it's installed.

Honestly I don't have time to do that kind of major tinkering. And anyway I don't see much impetus to put a lot of effort into modding for the old archaic engine. For this kind of mod, the EEs allow us to do all sorts of cool new stuff. Time to move into the future, I think.

Plus, honestly, can I get some damn recognition of what is possible here? I split up the ability to install HLAs by class. So if you stop and think about it, the solution is very simple if you don't like Use Scrolls:
- Install thief HLAs from Rogue Rebalancing.
- Install all HLAs *except* thief HLAs

Done. So, what are we talking about?

Edited by subtledoctor, 15 November 2017 - 12:08 PM.