38 replies to this topic

[Userunfriendly]

ok, bard song is very buggy...

mislead clones can sing it (regular and enhanced), and it stacks...

enhanced bard song affects whole map...have a bard cast mislead many times, set each clone to sing, and the entire party gains mondo bonuses...

jester song affects entire map...solo jesters can sing, and induce creatures to attack each other, killing themselves off....

skald song can enhance summons but is range limited...

so what i am thinking the intent of the designers is...

no clones singing bard songs (d'uh!!!) but images and simmys should be able to...

range limited on all bard songs...

all bard songs should be able to enhance summons...(this to make up for losing the clone cheese...)

course, i like the clone cheese and have used it many times...(no surprise there)

what do you all think????

[rreinier]

I don't think the clone exploit can really be called cheese. I can imagine a smart Bard conjuring up a few clones and making them sing a song. If they sing together, it will only be more inspiring...

I do think that there should be a range limit to the bard song, though. Maybe the normal visual range or slightly longer would be good.

[Userunfriendly]

I don't think the clone exploit can really be called cheese. I can imagine a smart Bard conjuring up a few clones and making them sing a song. If they sing together, it will only be more inspiring...

I do think that there should be a range limit to the bard song, though. Maybe the normal visual range or slightly longer would be good.

NO other special ability, without exception, can be used by a mislead clone...and i'm talking about a mislead clone, NOT an image or simmy, who should be able to sing enhanced bard song/bard song..and the benefits certainly should not stack..

agreed, bard images and simmys should be able to sing, but a mislead clone???

[T.G.Maestro]

This is truly a problem, and we shall work on it as soon as we find the time. I doubt that it will fit into v1 (not if we intend to release it before April), but it surely is a must. My idea on the fixes would be much like your version, Userunfriendly.

no clones singing bard songs (d'uh!!!) but images and simmys should be able to...

range limited on all bard songs...

Something like this. And since all the bard songs have an improved version in Refinements (using aVENGERs work as a basis), we will have to revise them too.

Thanks for the input!

[Littiz]

I've already done most of the work.
In answer to a "request" collected in another forum, I posted the following (now copy-pasted):


aVENGER's Rogue Rebalancing mod, among the rest, changes the regular Bards' song.
Original one seemed to do nothing, aVENGER's version does, and it also improves with levels, as it was meant to.

Each kit gets its own Bard song, too (Blades get the only one that does NOT improve with levels).
These fixes are ONLY included in aVENGER's mod (Refinements indeed is meant to be used together with it. Even though the two may live separately, our documentation will highly suggest to use them together).
All of these versions use a ranged, allies-including effect, except Jester's one, which affects enemies.

Then aVENGER created new HLAs for bards, a new Enhanced Bard Song, and two other versions for Skalds and Jesters (no enhanced version for Blades!). Enhanced versions are followed by Lingering Songs, which improve the duration of the effects after singing has stopped.
So there are three Enhanced Songs, and three Lingering Songs, for regular bards, Skalds and Jesters.
All of these songs use a simple "TargetParty" effect, again, except Jester's one. I assume aVENGER used this impostation since that was used for the only originally existing Enhanced Bard song.

Refinements was already using those new HLAs, with a few adjustments and rebalancing, and some other changes to the HLAs tables (ex: Skalds get two new, mutually exclusive HLAs: Blunt Weapon Specialization, and Bladed Weapon Specialization).
What I have done now:
I've modified ALL Enhanced Songs and Lingering Songs (except Jesters'...), so that they also use a ranged effect that targets allies.
In a word, if you'll install the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, and then Refinements, you'll finally have a normalized behaviour for all songs.

Of course all of these things must still face beta-testing



What needs to be done yet? Well, I should make them all unstackable.
Yes.
About Misleaded Clones, I frankly think it is an hardcoded bug. Will check, but I bet I'm right.

[Userunfriendly]

so the blade kit won't get any enchanced songs at all???

urm...

oh well, i guess its ok...the blade is a pretty powerful kit already...

(besides, you guys know already i can make kensai blades... )

[jester]

The mislead thingy is no bug, sorry mates


I myself represent the famous Jester's choir. We travel light, but we fill the whole stage. A multiple personality helps, if you sing along with yourself though...


Blades should not get an enhanced song IMHO, because that is their only real drawback as bards which would be obsolete as a RP-decision.

[Userunfriendly]

The mislead thingy is no bug, sorry mates


I myself represent the famous Jester's choir. We travel light, but we fill the whole stage. A multiple personality helps, if you sing along with yourself though...


Blades should not get an enhanced song IMHO, because that is their only real drawback as bards which would be obsolete as a RP-decision.

???

are you saying the enhanced bard song is a drawback to blades???

sorry, i've only had haery once in my party...and ended up petrifying him anyway...

[jester]

No I am saying that there are the gloggles of identification to make up for low lore, the gloves and potions to make up for the anyway seldom used pickpocketing ability and the enhanced song to make up for the fact that blades are essentially nasty singers and do not level up in it. If someone uses a blade or use this stupid doomguard, then he/she has to either sing him/herself or have a Edwin/Minsc/Jan choir:D , but not get it later on anyways. I would also petrify him, since a dual in short swords makes for a decent way to hang your coats.

[Bruce Lee]

Okay Littiz. I found my way here now hehe.
Here is what I think about the bard songs.
Of course it should give benefits to both party and summons and other allies. Meaning that it should for example also benefit drizzt when fighting bodhi for instance. The way I see this is that it should therefore benefit everyone who isn't an enemy. How exactly does the jester song work? What happens to neutral/blue character when the jester sings?
I like the rogue rebalancing bard song themes. The blade not getting song etc. But the problem there is that the songs don't stack. But they do stack at different levels. Say if you have a skald singing enhanced skald song it stacks with regular skald song, but two skalds singing enhanced does not stack.
Realistically two different skalds singing, the effects should stack, atleast to some extent. If it is a skald and his simulacrum they shouldn't stack. Dont know if this can be done though. Also a simmie or image should be able to sing but perhaps not mislead clones. You could argue that an image shouldn't be able to sing but since the image can do so much for mages then ofcourse they can sing as bards.
I would very much like all song to have some kind of range, and the lingering song HLA could perhaps also increase that range. That would be perfect I think.
Have you looked into the range effect of the skald song as it seems very instable, it comes and goes even when withing range. If this can be fixed it would be great.

[Littiz]

I'd need some more feedback on this point.
Range to Lingering Songs can be augmented through a new projectile.
WeiDU now offers all the tools to add a new projectile to the game in a clean way, so it's doable.

Any additional opinions about balancing? Would they become too powerful?
The glitch is probably hard-coded... Bard songs use a very special time setting for their effects (maybe basically they're just reapplied now and then). This actually might cause problems even with a possible fix to make them unstackable...
I'll try something sooner or later.

[T.G.Maestro]

I'd advise keeping the songs area of effect to the bards line of sight. This is only a balancing issue, and since these songs will affect summons and allied creatures, something is needed to stop them from becoming too powerful.
Another thing I would suggest is to make it so that the bonuses affecting the party would NOT effect the bard. I think he/she must concentrate on the song to get the best results, so I truly doubt that a skald should receive more than 2-4 bonus to his/her THAC0 while the party receives 6. Just an example.

[Tom]

My opinion: It should stack, more voices = louder = more motivating/inspiring

The range should be line of sight (or hearing) - how is a person at the opposite end of a dungeon going to hear a bard song?
It should effect all people fighting with the Bard - regardless of the colour of their circle (includes charmed/dominated people) and this includes summons. But will it effect animals? Or more importantly can you STOP it from effecting animals? My pets never take much notice of my music unless it is very VERY loud, so Im inclined to say that it shouldnt effect animals except for the jesters song... (if its possible to do this that is)
If mislead clones have a voice, then they should be able to use the bard song - if not then not.

This final one im not sure is possible, but if you have two bards singing together would it be possible to increase the range of effect? it would be louder, so audible further away...

And yes I agree with you TGM, the song shouldnt effect the bard as much (if at all) as other party members.

[Bruce Lee]

I agree that it shouldn't effect the bard himself, not his own song atleast. I don't think two bards singing and the effects stacking is cheesy but I think a bard casting simulacrum having the simmie sing and getting big bonuses is cheesy. So preferably the bard gets no bonuses from his own song, other than the ones he get when singing himself. Maybe they should be toned down aswell..

[jester]

My opinion: It should stack, more voices = louder = more motivating/inspiring

The range should be line of sight (or hearing) - how is a person at the opposite end of a dungeon going to hear a bard song?

If mislead clones have a voice, then they should be able to use the bard song - if not then not.

And yes I agree with you TGM, the song shouldnt effect the bard as much (if at all) as other party members.

If you cast a sim as a mage or fighter you can use it as a carbon copy of yourself and that is the reasoning behind it. That is why I think it should stack. Think about different simmis singing different songs. The bard singing the song shouldn't get the bonuses or at least different ones, but everyone else listening, other bards in the party real or magical, should be affected. It would be nice to have different songs like the war song from IWD2 to choose from and not only linear increasing,i.e. stronger, songs. In this respect I put all my hopes in the hard working hands of Littiz and TGM. More power to music!!

BTW Line of sight makes a lot of sense though.

[Littiz]

Ok, let's try some order again.
Please consider that when it comes to such things, TGM doesn't test ANYTHING and leaves ALL the hardest matters to me, so bear with me but it takes time (this will have to change for version 2 )

I placed some highly visible effects to see how these Songs really work.
The effect is reapplied every now and then, but not continuously.
Now that all the Songs use a projectile (like original Skalds' song), the caster himself is affected as a target of that projectile. If he moves, chances are that he exits the area of effect created by the last casting, so he'll lose the effects for a while until the song is applied again.
This is my interpretation at least. So the glitch can only be "smoothed" by raising the area of effect...
But I'll leave this to Lingering Songs only, creating a new projectile for those (hoping it'll work..)

About stacking: aVENGER already used a trick for this but if I'm not mistaken it only affects the caster.
With a few simple changes it will affect everyone, with this result: different songs will stack, identical songs won't, no matter who cast them (clones, other bards...)
Actually I could also use other combinations (ex: only one of the songs may work at a given time), but I think the easiest solution is also the best here.

The caster can be made immune to all of the effects, if needed, but I see no real need: if he sings he can't attack, and why removing from him protections and immunities, while other party members do nothing but hearing to get them?
If he stops singing to attack, he'll have the benefits for a while... like the rest of the party, again. Why can't he be exhalted as well?

About animals. Now this is tricky. To exclude them, I'd have to do something like that:

-Use IDS/TARGETING in conjuction with the projectile.
-Use lots of such effects, to target everything *BUT* animals...
-Those spell effects could only call an EFF file, so to place the actual song's effects a new spell should be called from it.

Nothing terrible, in itself, but given the nature of the songs' timings, I don't know what would really happen in the end. Is it really wanted? Can't we consider songs' effect as something magical, in a way? Bards use magic after all


Last problem: all of these modifications (except the one to Lingering Songs) would disrupt coherency with aVENGER's "lesser" songs, since we are modifying only the HLAs.

[jester]

No probs with me! It all sounds excellent as you stated it. Can you please post the download link and the first two patches asap

[Tom]

Ok, let's try some order again.
Please consider that when it comes to such things, TGM doesn't test ANYTHING and leaves ALL the hardest matters to me, so bear with me but it takes time (this will have to change for version 2 )

Maybe this should be considered as a compliment - he respects your ability

Anyway, that sounds good, I wouldnt worry about the animals it was just a suggestion. Perhaps not a very good one. From now on the bards song magically effects animals

[T.G.Maestro]

Ok, let's try some order again.
Please consider that when it comes to such things, TGM doesn't test ANYTHING and leaves ALL the hardest matters to me, so bear with me but it takes time

Yep, every great creator needs an apprentice...

this will have to change for version 2

Hmm.. maybe we can talk about letting you in a well-trusted sidekick position..

Hey, but jokes aside, you do a great work with all that debugging and such Littiz. Trust me, I would do it myself, if I'd have the time..
All I can do right now is producing stuff, testing is a no-op for me right now .

Maybe this should be considered as a compliment - he respects your ability

My words exactly.

[Littiz]

Hmpf. "Apprentice".
Hmpf. "Debugging".

Wait to see the 1500 lines of script of the updated RUNCHECK.baf and we'll talk about "apprentices" ...
I shall remind you your words the next time you ask "How do I....?"


Truth is, TGM dwells in chaos, disorder, mess, untested stuff.
I dwell in order, logic, efficience, working stuff. B)
In a word, we are the *PERFECT* team!
ehm, back on topic...

The animals related idea is quite cool actually, and trust me, the targeting for Sword Angel's Spiritual Integrity has been *A LOT* harder than that. It's doable. It's just that I think it might not be worth it, and possibly buggy given the way songs' effects are applied. But it's an option that will remain open for the future.

Lingering songs are now updated, the range has been raised from 256 to 450.
They seem quite stable now.
The protection from spell effects used by aVENGER were applied surely correctly for the Enhanced songs, but the timings used for Lingering songs seemed to cause some glitches, actually preventing the effects of the SAME song to be applied, now and then.
The idea seemed right, but the time settings of the songs are quite strange, and the values don't seem to have the usual meaning. I've loosened the timing of those effects, they seem to work fine and I think they're still not stackable.
BETA testing will say more!
Speaking about that, people, if you're willing to sign for it, we'll be really happy you know