175 replies to this topic

[Caedwyr]

The thing is, at high levels monk fists are 1d20 damage weapons. Twice as good as a katana.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

It's not just about raw damage or who can kill bosses the fastest.

Among other things monks have a much higher movement rate which can be used tactically to great effect.

Monks aren't dependent on items for attacks.

And frankly monks are cooler with the new HLAs.

I don't think that monks need +5 fists, though an HLA to temporarily make them +6 might be interesting.

Let me throw something else out there. I assumed that one of the reasons that Balthazar has some of his unique stances would be due to the style he used. The fire attack seems quite in character for a mystical style developed in the desert.

IMO it?s quite likely that the PC would have learned a different style at Candlekeep and might have vastly different stances for HLAs.

It would be a load of work but it would be really cool if, at Refinements install time you got to pick a default ?school? for PC monks. Each school could have different stance HLAs. One option would be the ?fire? school or some such like Balthy knows. This would go a long way towards both evening out monks coolness wise with Balthy *and* give them the opportunity to be unique. In Ascension you could have a PC monk and Balthy with vastly different special HLAs ... and that just reeks of kung-fu coolness to me!

[Baltrek]

Ah, and also remember that a Kensai can have 5 stars, and a Paladin gets 2. Thta is a big difference.

[T.G.Maestro]

It would be a load of work but it would be really cool if, at Refinements install time you got to pick a default ?school? for PC monks. Each school could have different stance HLAs

A fair idea Rathwellin, but as you say, it requires crazy amount of work (and time), and we don't have much at the moment. Creating a system like that for monks would be nearly equivalent with the work I'm planning for mages (True Dweomers), and frankly, we can't "afford" it right now.
Maybe for a future version.

[Schatten]

you cannot compare every character to the ultimate hackerslasherbutcher powergamewetdream character.

the idea is really good. is there something like that in pnp?

[T.G.Maestro]

Maybe it seems surprising, maybe not, but I'm not 100% satisfied with the current monk table. That is why I keep thinking on possible modifications, but again these are only *THOUGHTS* (do you read this Littiz? ).
Please read through these proposed changes, and tell me your ideas about them.

Sorry, but I'd like to ask you to *NOT* post any new ideas, I'm awaiting comments on these first.

First, here are the things I'd like to remove from their table:
- remove the 2 Deathblows (not really fitting, quite useless, and the icons contain sword animations);
- remove Snatch Arrows (it is still buggy, and the icon should be white).

And now, the new additions:
- A new passive ability, possibly the prerequisite of many more powerful HLAs -the base idea of this one comes from a 3rd E monk ability:
Diamond Soul
The monk has turned himself with training and quasi-magical abilities to the point that he becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider (extraplanar creature) rather than as a humanoid. For instance, charm effects won't affect him anymore and can only be harmed by weapons of +1 enchantment level, or higher. A monk with Diamond Soul will become vulnerable to spells that repel extraplanar creatures.

- The 3 Stances from Balthazar, slightly modified:
Shadow Stance
This high-level ability allows the monk to become completely invisible and undetectable -even by magical means- for a short time. His whole body becomes almost ethereal, and his AC will be reduced by 5 points. If the monks makes an attack or any other action, the ethereal state ends, but he will remain partially invisible until the duration expires, which is 4 rounds.
Shadow Stance cannot be used together with other monk Stances.
Lunar Stance
As an outsider, the monk can achieve a state where he becomes immune to many magical effects for a limited duration. Spells and spell-like abilities that hinder movement and free action (like Maze, Stun, Hold, etc.), instant death effects and those that manipulate the mind like Confusion or Domination will have no affect on the monk. In the first 2 rounds of Lunar Stance he becomes immune to the effects of Time Stop and Imprisonment as well. The duration of this ability is 4 rounds.
Lunar Stance cannot be used together with other monk Stances.
Solar Stance
This Stance unleashes the monk's pulsating Ki energies, which results in a heavy shockwave that blasts away everyone around him in a 30' radius area. The massive fiery outburst deals 10D6 fire damage to nearby creatures (save vs. breath for half) and knocks them far away from the monk. Those who fail their saves vs. breath will suffer additional 1D8 crushing damage.
Solar Stance cannot be used together with other monk Stances.

- a pair of "evil-good" abilities, like seen on the mage or cleric HLA tables:
Finger of Venom (Evil only)
Evil monks can direct their innate Ki energies in the most harmful ways. Concentrating their rage in one attack, they can transfer a deadly poison into the victim's body through their pointing left forefinger. If successful, this vile attack immediately reduces the target's Constitution by 5 (no save). Furthermore, the creature struck by this attack will lose another point of Constitution every 2nd round for 1 turn (save vs. death to avoid this effect entirely). The monk has 1 round to make a successful attack.
Golden Bell (Good only)
Monks of the good and righteous path can develop this ability after many yearsspellholdstudios.net of training and meditation. It requires the purest of minds to achieve this state, that is why only good-aligned monks can use it.
By activating this superhuman power, the monk's body becomes nearly invulnerable to weapons for a short time - only weapons with an enchantment level of +5 or higher can harm him. The only possible drawback of this ability is that it requires significant concentration (1 round) to be activated and lasts only 3 rounds.

- and finally, the greatest of all the monk HLAs (this one will have heavy prerequisites):
Inner Time
Inner Time is clearly the pinnacle of the monk's mental abilities. Having achieved perfect focus in their body and soul, the most experienced monks are able to slow their inner time to the point that they sense every second in reality as a full round. This state allows them to judge things wiser and react to the surrounding world much more faster and effective.
In addition, Inner Time not simply hastens the mind, the body of the monk becomes faster too . Every spectator would find his movement and actions incredibly fast, his fists will become more dangerous than any other weapon: he gets 8 attacks/round, his damage and THAC0 increases by 4 points, he can catch missiles and throw them back to the attacker with the same move, and will become protected from backstabs as well.
After the duration of the ability expires (which is 3 rounds), the monks will become fatigued and will be unable to use any special attacks or abilities for 3 rounds.
Note that there are a few -mostly magical- creatures that are "immune" to the effects of Inner Time, since they have a similar perfect (or inborn) inner harmony.

So please tell me your opinions on these - I'm not awaiting any serius debates on balance or such, simply a few thoughts.

[T.G.Maestro]

why give them an 'inner time' which looks even worse than plain old whirl wind since its only 8atks and it gives them huge penalties after it expires? Am I the only one who feels this doesn't make sense?

No, you don't understand. Inner Time not only gives the monk 8 attacks and THAC0/damage bonuses... it makes the monk's movement as fast as the game engine can handle, while slowing everyone on the screen at the same time... which means 4 AC bonus because of the lowered THAC0 of opponents as well... and I still haven't mentioned the integrated Snatch Arrows effect, nor the immunity to backstab...
After a few attempts of testing, the result was shocking: my 25th level monk killed Illasera's 4 goons in 3 rounds without losing more than 60 HPs...
No, I'm pretty sure that this ability makes a monk clearly superior to a fighter in every aspects...

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I?m not going to suggest anything new at this point ? but I do want to say that overall I would rather go in a different direction than the Lunar, Solar, & Shadow Stances.

If I want to play a Balthy clone there is a mod for that. Oversight.

If I want to have a Blathy+ clone in my party there is a mod for that too with a decent backstory to explain the similar stances. Kiara - Zaiya.

What I would really like to play is a cool monk that *isn?t* like Balthy. Some overlap is OK, but I would rather have my own unique powers as a PC. I would like for my PC monk to be *different* from Balthy.

Now on to specifics of the powers you posted.

Diamond Soul ? this isn?t all that. Sure it appears to be based on the 3rd ed thing of the same name but the PC can *already* be invulnerable to non-magic weapons. Adding +1 weapons to that doesn?t seem big in ToB. It just doesn?t seem very cool or useful and has a decent enough penalty that I would be reluctant to pick it. I give this one the big shrug & just narrowly avoid the thumbs down.

Shadow Stance ? pretty potent against mages. How does True Sight affect it? This one gets a qualified thumbs up. The ability itself seems fine, though as noted above I would rather have unique stuff.

Solar Stance ? fine fine, as above. Is this one affected by MR?

Lunar Stance ? ditto. Timestop immunity. Mmm. Cheesy.

Finger of Venom ? Is this thing chooseable more than once? If so death by Con drain becomes a real possibility and is probably too much IMO. Why have it nuke Con? Why not disrupt AC and or THACO instead? Thumbs down.

Golden Bell ? nice ability but needs a new name. Thumbs up.

Inner Time ? this ability just doesn?t look right for some reason. Bumping up the arrow catching is good. More attacks is good. THACO & damage bumps are OK, but don?t grab me as much. Protected from backstabs, well it?s OK, but that would make a better passive innate of it?s own IMO. I think that it?s the fatigue that I don?t like. Temporary penalties I can live with, but getting a whole day?s worth of fatigue just seems silly. Is my monk really that easily tired? I hope not. No specials for 3 rounds is fine. Why on *earth* are some folks immune to this? Are they immune to GWW too? I sure hope so. Better to just drop the THACO & damage bumps than have artificial immunity IMO.

I?m glad that you were able to beat Illasera & co with these HLAs. I?ve been trying to do so with a 6mil XP monk for the past two days without success using the 1.0 HLAs.

[T.G.Maestro]

I would rather go in a different direction than the Lunar, Solar, & Shadow Stances.

Yes, it was suggested before, and I found merit in those suggestions - yet they were far from the quality of B's abilities. Actually, I'd rather drop the whole Stance-idea than adding something inferior.

Diamond Soul ? this isn?t all that. Sure it appears to be based on the 3rd ed thing of the same name but the PC can *already* be invulnerable to non-magic weapons. Adding +1 weapons to that doesn?t seem big in ToB. It just doesn?t seem very cool or useful and has a decent enough penalty that I would be reluctant to pick it. I give this one the big shrug & just narrowly avoid the thumbs down

Wait a minute please - I see you are still not used to the new HLA System Rathwellin . Hey, tell me ONE passive HLA that is required for more powerful abilities, that is worth picking by itself? I don't know any. And there is a reason - you pick those to GET the more powerful ones - consider this as a sacrifice for the real power. Remember, you can almost always choose a quicker path with other abilities, but those are likely less powerful. So believe me, this passive is still much more useful than Inner Focus for the Sorc class for example.

Finger of Venom ? Is this thing chooseable more than once? If so death by Con drain becomes a real possibility and is probably too much IMO

No, the "good/evil" HLAs would only be useable once/day. And the "death by CON drain" is the prime purpose of this one, believe it or not!

I think that it?s the fatigue that I don?t like. Temporary penalties I can live with, but getting a whole day?s worth of fatigue just seems silly. Is my monk really that easily tired? I hope not.

The description is not entirely precise, I'll change it: it is not fatigue, but a winded state, similar to the Sword Angel version (after Spiritual Harmony). So it lasts only 3 rounds .

Protected from backstabs, well it?s OK, but that would make a better passive innate of it?s own IMO.

Maybspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.nete for thieves, but then the Rogue's Cowl (or something like that.. ) item in ToB would become useless... and I think the description of Inner Time explains clearly why a monk would become "immune" to backstabs.

I?m glad that you were able to beat Illasera & co with these HLAs. I?ve been trying to do so with a 6mil XP monk for the past two days without success using the 1.0 HLAs.

Ehm, I killed the 4 Reavers with Inner Time only...
Illasera was a bit annoying (as she is always) because of her arrows made me unable to use any special attacks on her, but after a few minutes of "hide&seek" she started to cast Cure Serious Wounds, and that was the end of her journey... (Shadowless Kick can do wonders with its uncounsciousness effect... )

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I'd rather drop the whole Stance-idea than adding something inferior.

Agree with you here. I don't recall the specific suggestions you mention but I would like to have unique enough HLAs that I don't feel redundant playing a Monk with Kiara in the party for instnace ... and unique enough that if the PC fights Balthy then it is more than just two clones fighting.

Diamond Soul ? has a decent enough penalty that I would be reluctant to pick it. I give this one the big shrug & just narrowly avoid the thumbs down

Wait a minute please - I see you are still not used to the new HLA System Rathwellin . Hey, tell me ONE passive HLA that is required for more powerful abilities, that is worth picking by itself?

I am somewhat used to it, that's why it got a shrug instead of the thumbs down. However *none* of your other required passives have a 'side effect' or downside. Adding one here is a problem IMO.

Finger of Venom ? death by Con drain becomes a real possibility

No, the "good/evil" HLAs would only be useable once/day. And the "death by CON drain" is the prime purpose of this one, believe it or not!

Then it doesn't look like it would work. -10 Con once per day? Doesn't seem very deadly. How many foes have only 9 or les Con? The main problem I see here though is that it becomes like the Mind Flayer shapechange cheese. A way to kill 'unkillable' foes. This just seems too open to potential abuse.

The description is not entirely precise, I'll change it: it is not fatigue, but a winded state, similar to the Sword Angel version (after Spiritual Harmony). So it lasts only 3 rounds.

That sounds fine then.

Protected from backstabs, well it?s OK, but that would make a better passive innate of it?s own IMO.

Maybe for thieves, but then the Rogue's Cowl (or something like that.. ) item in ToB would become useless... and I think the description of Inner Time explains clearly why a monk would become "immune" to backstabs.

Why would a Monk be immune? Maybe some level of innate danger sense, the ability to sense the 'chi' of the attack just before it's made, or even supernatural lifesaving reflexes. I've actually played a fair number of martial artists in other systems and one of the common themes is that MAs are hard or impossible to suprise at high levels.

I'll also note that Barbarians are already immune from level 1 up & that other fighters can gain immunity with the Enkidu Plate. Folks with the Ritual from Tactics can also get boots that grant immunity.

How many thieves do you face in ToB anyway? Not too many. And IMO that's what counts not PvP....

I also notice that you didn't mention my previous Inner Time comments about the 'immunity'.

[T.G.Maestro]

I am somewhat used to it, that's why it got a shrug instead of the thumbs down. However *none* of your other required passives have a 'side effect' or downside. Adding one here is a problem IMO.

Maybe. I'm not even sure how I could code that anyway. Yet I find the idea to count the monk as an outsider intriguing, and worth to think on this possibility a bit more.

Why would a Monk be immune?

Easy. Why is a Deva Immune? Because he cannot be surprised - thats what IT is about.

Why on *earth* are some folks immune to this?

Because they are able to use the same kind of "inner focus". To b technical, thats simply there to explain the "Slow" immunity of opponents .

The APR boost is nice, but it's nothing more than a weak GWW

Is it? Does GWW add a bonus +4 damage? Does it add -4 THAC0 bonus?

and Critical Strike is infinitely superior to that anyway for anyone but a kensai, says I

The probelm is that I already tried this ability in action, while you haven't - I've never been able to vanquish those 4 Reavers with a single ability before..

ah, so it also slows opponents while hasting yourself...i guess that brings it up to par with GWW & critical strike

Far beyond, trust me. You cannot imagin how powerful a hasted, GWW monk is against slowed opponents;)

[Littiz]

- remove Snatch Arrows (it is still buggy, and the icon should be white).

It's not "buggy", it's tricky, and that's the most reasonably doable implementation I could produce (as requested!) for this ability.
You do miracles and see the payment
If you have an adequate replacement for this ability anyway, go for it.

Anyway, about the rest of proposed changes. For me, I'd leave them in the "proposed" state
First, thinking about it, deathblows are not SO unfitting. Pressure points, and all The icons are just "shared" icons, so you can leave with the little swords, it's just a little symbol. Also, monks CAN use swords.

Stances:
First problem, they'd need new portrait icons. No, you can't just use the "improved invisibility" icon, that's a specific spell, and it would seem like the monk is using magic. I could maybe live with the "non-detection" icon, but such abilities (stances) would definitely need new icons.
Lastly, I don't see how a monk can become invisible. This is going overboard, imho.
Oh, also I fear you couldn't prevent the third stance to be used together with the other two... just think about it a bit more

Inner Time would also need a new portrait icon.

All in all, my comment is: why ruin a configuration where a load of problems have been solved together and concurrently, to reach a new state with many new problems that won't be solved?

[T.G.Maestro]

It's not "buggy", it's tricky, and that's the most reasonably doable implementation I could produce (as requested!) for this ability.

Hmm. Please point me to the "trick" in the following situation:
I started a multiplayer party with a monk and an archer in it. I tried to test the Snatch Arrows ability by firing +2 arrows at him by the archer. The result was indeed tricky, 15 from 15 shots hit the monk. I can't say it does wonders, or maybe I didn't really understand the current mechanism of this ability...

If you have an adequate replacement for this ability anyway, go for it.

Inner Time. It removes the 33% problem, since it works like a Physical Mirror spell.

For me, I'd leave them in the "proposed" state

For me too, but again, I'm thinking more and more on them.

thinking about it, deathblows are not SO unfitting. Pressure points, and all  The icons are just "shared" icons, so you can leave with the little swords, it's just a little symbol. Also, monks CAN use swords.

I remember you saying a few weeks before that you would agree to drop these for the Stances.
But technically, these are virtually useless for monks - no one uses them, and they are simply more fitting to fighters than monks. And monks don't tend to use swords above 20th level .

Stances:
First problem, they'd need new portrait icons.

Indeed, this is a real problem, one that keeps bothering me for a while. Yet if we intend to do ANYTHING in the future (True Dweomers, etc) we need to bypass this problem somehow. If it means sacrificing a few non-important icons, so be it I say. I'm thinking on True Kai, Tireless Rage, and maybe even a few original icons, though I'm positive you won't love this idea.

Lastly, I don't see how a monk can become invisible

He becomes ethereal. See Illasera, Imoen, or even 3rdE monks (IWD2).

I fear you couldn't prevent the third stance to be used together with the other two... just think about it a bit more

Hmm. What about making it so that the monk actually CAST a spell on himself by the ability - this would prevent the projetile problem, right?

Inner Time would also need a new portrait icon.

Thats true. As said above, I'm trying to come up with a reasonable solution, without ruining anything we did so far .

All in all, my comment is: why ruin a configuration where a load of problems have been solved together and concurrently, to reach a new state with many new problems that won't be solved?

Because our "solution" created a few heavy problems for the future - the lack of free SE icons will cause much problems in the future, as it is causing now. But again, trust me, I'm not up to ruining anything, I'll only change things if we find a GOOD solution for the long run.

[Littiz]

I can't say it does wonders, or maybe I didn't really understand the current mechanism of this ability...

Hmm, it worked fine in all my tests...
Will check more (when I have time!)

I remember you saying a few weeks before that you would agree to drop these for the Stances.

I just said that I could maybe be convinced

Indeed, this is a real problem, one that keeps bothering me for a while. Yet if we intend to do ANYTHING in the future (True Dweomers, etc) we need to bypass this problem somehow. If it means sacrificing a few non-important icons, so be it I say. I'm thinking on True Kai, Tireless Rage, and maybe even a few original icons, though I'm positive you won't love this idea.

You can be positive that I hate it
The current configuration is fine, to me.

[Tydirium]

Keep the Stances. They're very nice. So what if Balthasar can use them? There's no reason that the PC can't develop them on their own, so to speak.

Why does Diamond Soul make you an extraplanar creature? Being an inherently magical creature doesn't have anything to do with what plane you're from. The PC is from the Prime Material Plane. He already is an extraplanar being when on the Inner or Outer planes. It just doesn't make sense that he suddenly becomes magical, and alien to his own home universe (and every other) at the same time.

In fact, the only situation that I know of in which a being can change their planar nature is a Chronomancer who uses a special spell to break his time string and become a being of Temporal Prime. And that's a special ritual in and of itself.