39 replies to this topic

[The Amazing Maurice]

By the way, I really think the mass of BG2 lovers did not see this topic, because there was another one (a comparison between BG, IWD, PST and NWN) and BG2 had around 60% of votes. 

I saw that poll - it seemed to me that a lot of the votes for BG2 were because that because; A} They had only played BG2 B} BG2 has many mods. This is a poll between the original games themselves.

But never let anyone deem me unfair...

[The Amazing Maurice]

You understood me wrong here, Notmrt. I mean more realistic THAN PST (for a story placed in Forgotten Realms world).

But PS:T is not based in the Forgotten Realms. For the setting that it is in it adheres to the rules of that world. The same way that BG2 adheres to the rules of the Forgotten Realms.

Let's be honest neither of them are what you'd call "realisitc".

[Feanor]

I saw that poll - it seemed to me that a lot of the votes for BG2 were because that because; A} They had only played BG2 B} BG2 has many mods. This is a poll between the original games themselves.

But never let anyone deem me unfair...

That seems the point of view of PST fan...but have it in your way.

But PS:T is not based in the Forgotten Realms. For the setting that it is in it adheres to the rules of that world. The same way that BG2 adheres to the rules of the Forgotten Realms.
Let's be honest neither of them are what you'd call "realisitc".

That's depend what do you understand by "realistic"...
When I said "realistic", in fact I had in mind how FR is designed by comparing with Planescape. I mean the whole Planescape and Sigil's conception is too crazy (in my opinion). Toril world, even if it has magic, monsters and so on, does not cross the line. But Planescape does.

Edited by Feanor, 24 May 2004 - 01:11 AM.

[The Amazing Maurice]

That's depend what do you understand by "realistic"... When I said "realistic", in fact I had in mind how FR is designed by comparing with Planescape. I mean the whole Planescape and Sigil's conception is too crazy (in my opinion). Toril world, even if it has magic, monsters and so on, does not cross the line. But Planescape does.

That seems like the point of view of a BG2 fan But I respect it nonetheless.

[Feanor]

That's depend what do you understand by "realistic"... When I said "realistic", in fact I had in mind how FR is designed by comparing with Planescape. I mean the whole Planescape and Sigil's conception is too crazy (in my opinion). Toril world, even if it has magic, monsters and so on, does not cross the line. But Planescape does.

That seems like the point of view of a BG2 fan But I respect it nonetheless.

I did not say that if Planescape world is far more fantastic than Toril world that means is something bad (generally speaking)...

[T.G.Maestro]

OK, I'll add my vote to BG2. Without question. Ps:T is a GREAT game, clearly one of my favorites. As khayman pointed out before, the dialogues are very well written and in-depth. Still Maurice, by asking your question adding the line .."without mods..." is a bit tricky and unfair here. Let me put it another way:
BG2 is far superior compared to PS:T since it has the unbelieveable potential to be MODDED. Sounds different, right?
And no, please don't tell me it has nothing to do with the game(s) - it is one of BG(2)s most powerful feature, and a vital part of it.
And one more thing: if you were around from the "beginning", when there were only unmodded PS:T, BG/BG2 (with or without ToB), you clearly noticed that there were way more posts in the BG series forums than in those of PS:T. We could find many reasons for this, but I think the key is the atmosphere (and strangely enough, I'd vote for PS:T, if it'd be just about the atmosphere) - the BG2 world is kinda easier to "accept" and become familiar with.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 24 May 2004 - 02:03 AM.

[Dalis'ilhea]

hands down my vote goes for Torment heh heh poor Diablo has no votes (I wonder why)

[The Amazing Maurice]

OK, I'll add my vote to BG2. Without question. Ps:T is a GREAT game, clearly one of my favorites. As khayman pointed out before, the dialogues are very well written and in-depth. Still Maurice, by asking your question adding the line .."without mods..." is a bit tricky and unfair here. Let me put it another way:
BG2 is far superior compared to PS:T since it has the unbelieveable potential to be MODDED. Sounds different, right?
And no, please don't tell me it has nothing to do with the game(s) - it is one of BG(2)s most powerful feature, and a vital part of it.
And one more thing: if you were around from the "beginning", when there were only unmodded PS:T, BG/BG2 (with or without ToB), you clearly noticed that there were way more posts in the BG series forums than in those of PS:T. We could find many reasons for this, but I think the key is the atmosphere (and strangely enough, I'd vote for PS:T, if it'd be just about the atmosphere) - the BG2 world is kinda easier to "accept" and become familiar with.

I agree that BG2 is far more easier to accept and understand and that it is a far more liked game game than PS:T.

As for asking the question "is Bg2 better without mods?" I disagree with your point that it is an unfair question.

BG2 was released as a game to be played. Just played, not modded. It is the community who started the modding craze - not the developers. In fact Interplay tried to shut down Team BG at one point. To say that the power to be modded is one of BG2 great strengths is unfair, Interplay certainly didn't market it as such.

The question is PS:T better than BG:2 without mods is trying to find which is the better game that was made by Black Isle. Not which has the better fan add-ons, as BG:2 would of course easily win. Which then boils down to the question "which is more popular"? rather than, "which is the better game"?

Having the ability to be modded dosn't make the (original) game any better, it does give it longer life though. Hence the reason why there are so few PS:T sites now.

[T.G.Maestro]

BG2 was released as a game to be played. Just played, not modded. It is the community who started the modding craze - not the developers. In fact Interplay tried to shut down Team BG at one point. To say that the power to be modded is one of BG2 great strengths is unfair, Interplay certainly didn't market it as such.

No, Interplay had no intentions telling us how to use the game. Sure, they didn't expected that BG2 will be that popular in the "modder-world", but there are no warnings on any of these games telling you how you must play/use it. The fact that it came with an useable source made it an "easy prey" for us.

The question is PS:T better than BG:2 without mods

The answer for the core of this question would be "Yes, it is", but that only works for the core. BG2 IS a way different software with its modding-possibilities, and if you'd ask me at the moment which of these two games I'd like to buy, the amswer would be easy: BG2, because it has a nice story, a fantastic world (PS:T is AT LEAST an equal to BG2 in these points), PLUS it is a game that is constantly improved and adds much more gaming experience to anyone.
Really, there is no sense in talking about unmodded BG2, since it no longer exists. You are talking about something that is histrory - BG2 is indeed modded, and its "development" continues, while PS:T is dead. A shame if you ask me, since I'd be more than glad to work on it, it is a fantastic game to begin with, and would offer amazing opportunities. But this is mere fantasy.

[Feanor]

Even without mods, BG2 is better. I agree, PST has a very complex story, but the story is not all and BG2 beats him especially with the gameplay.

[The Amazing Maurice]

BG2 was released as a game to be played. Just played, not modded. It is the community who started the modding craze - not the developers. In fact Interplay tried to shut down Team BG at one point. To say that the power to be modded is one of BG2 great strengths is unfair, Interplay certainly didn't market it as such.

No, Interplay had no intentions telling us how to use the game. Sure, they didn't expected that BG2 will be that popular in the "modder-world", but there are no warnings on any of these games telling you how you must play/use it. The fact that it came with an useable source made it an "easy prey" for us.

But it was not marketed in the same way as NWN for example - the fact that it had the potential to be modded was not advertised at all. But on the other hand there were no warnings about modding it either. But that's a different disscussion altogether.

The question is PS:T better than BG:2 without mods
The answer for the core of this question would be "Yes, it is", but that only works for the core. BG2 IS a way different software with its modding-possibilities, and if you'd ask me at the moment which of these two games I'd like to buy, the amswer would be easy: BG2, because it has a nice story, a fantastic world (PS:T is AT LEAST an equal to BG2 in these points), PLUS it is a game that is constantly improved and adds much more gaming experience to anyone.
Really, there is no sense in talking about unmodded BG2, since it no longer exists. You are talking about something that is histrory - BG2 is indeed modded, and its "development" continues, while PS:T is dead. A shame if you ask me, since I'd be more than glad to work on it, it is a fantastic game to begin with, and would offer amazing opportunities. But this is mere fantasy.

Fair point. I dissagree about the story, but I'm not going to get into a disscussion about that. I am merley trying to compare which was the better game when they were released though. As you say BG2 is still being developed and PS:T is dead - hence you can talk about nothing else apart from "history" on a PS:T board.

As you stated it's a shame that the modding craze never reached PS:T - though I suppose the way it's engine was devloped didn't help.

PS:T Tutu?

[T.G.Maestro]

But it was not marketed in the same way as NWN for example - the fact that it had the potential to be modded was not advertised at all. But on the other hand there were no warnings about modding it either

As you say - the "potential" was still there, no matter the advertisments. And we are talking about the games, not their marketing, right?

As you stated it's a shame that the modding craze never reached PS:T - though I suppose the way it's engine was devloped didn't help.

Right. Among the IE games, PS:T is one of the hardest to mod, completely impossible at some points.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Right. Among the IE games, PS:T is one of the hardest to mod, completely impossible at some points.

Unfortuantly I think that even if the engine was more accesible and could be modded, I think BG2 would still be the more popular . PS:T's setting is too "out there" for most casual gamers

[T.G.Maestro]

Unfortuantly I think that even if the engine was more accesible and could be modded, I think BG2 would still be the more popular

Hmm. We can only guess, but I'm not 100% sure - the fact that so many (experienced) players prefer the PS:T storyline shows a great amount of hidden interest.
Still, as I said before, this will most likely remain fantasy due to engine limitations.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Aye, It is, and shall remain a underdog.

Though if PS:Vengance should get finished and be as good as it sounds, you never know...

[The Amazing Maurice]

No... I wouldn't have the time to learn. And judging by the lack of interest in Vengance compared to the BG2 mods, I can't see many people wanting to either... Oh well, let's just appreciate PS:T for what it is and not what it might have been

[T.G.Maestro]

Oh well, let's just appreciate PS:T for what it is and not what it might have been 

Correct. This would be a good conclusion of this poll.

[The Amazing Maurice]

I agree.