146 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

- some of his servants will be made unique: he will summon his general Severik, a male Balor.
- he will summon his special Marilith Blackguards instead of plain Mariliths.

TG, after I have read the Demogorgon description, I have a stroing point against the addition quoted above. I want to recall the fact that the Demogorgon encountered in Watcher's Keep is only an avatar of the real Demogorgon. He can have more than one avatar. Severik and his Marilith blackguards seem to be a kind of personal guard of the Demogorgon from the Abyss. I doubt they will obey to the command of an avatar. Only the lesser power Demogorgon could command them.

[Schatten]

not to mention he is more powerfull in bg2.
the guest was me by the way. stupid not functioning autologin.
to tell the truth i think he is tough enough in the current version. but maybe a last resort action to summon a pack of blackguards may be okay.

[T.G.Maestro]

Hmm, both of you made very good points against this improvement. I think Severik will be removed then (or at least I won't change that normal Balor Demogorgon gates in), and maybe even the Blackguards will be dropped. He will use his third gaze attack though for sure.

[Feanor]

Hmm, both of you made very good points against this improvement. I think Severik will be removed then (or at least I won't change that normal Balor Demogorgon gates in), and maybe even the Blackguards will be dropped. He will use his third gaze attack though for sure.

But still I support the idea of Dual Action. Demogorgon has 2 heads, each of them equally intelligent and with his own personality, so he should be able to cast 2 spells per round. B)

Edited by Feanor, 10 June 2004 - 09:21 AM.

[Feanor]

TG, I fear I have to sabotage you again a little bit. You and Jinnai think that Balors should have Death Throe. I disagree and I have a strong reason for it. Look : "If a balor is slain in the Abyss, it explodes in a blinding flash of light, inflicting 50 points of damage to everything in a 100-foot radius around the creature (saving throw vs. spell for half damage)." I emphasize : if a Balor is slain IN THE ABYSS. So I think you should drop Sunfire.

Second, what kind of weapons do you intend to give to the Balors. In BG2 they use their fists (which are +4 weapons), but ADD says they prefer to use two handed swords. Maybe you should give them something similar to the Soul Reaver, what do you think ?

Edited by Feanor, 12 June 2004 - 01:19 AM.

[Jinnai]

TG, I fear I have to sabotage you again a little bit.    You and Jinnai think that Balors should have Death Throe. I disagree and I have a strong reason for it. Look : "If a balor is slain in the Abyss, it explodes in a blinding flash of light, inflicting 50 points of damage to everything in a 100-foot radius around the creature (saving throw vs. spell for half damage)." I emphasize : if a Balor is slain IN THE ABYSS. So I think you should drop Sunfire.

  Second, what kind of weapons do you intend to give to the Balors. In BG2 they use their fists (which are +4 weapons), but ADD says they prefer to use two handed swords. Maybe you should give them something similar to the Soul Reaver, what do you think ?

Mine is based on 3rd edition and TGM said she was combining the two and Balors were much nastier (as they should be) in 3/3.5

There, death throw does 100 points of damage in a 100 foot radius, reflex save, constituion based allowed for 1/2, reguardless of where it is because that is its essence. It specifically omits the part about abyss.

I cannot comment on the weapons as in 3.5 it says they prefer to use their whips to drag people in which requires new animations.

Edited by Jinnai, 13 June 2004 - 06:30 PM.

[Feanor]

Hmm, both of you made very good points against this improvement. I think Severik will be removed then (or at least I won't change that normal Balor Demogorgon gates in), and maybe even the Blackguards will be dropped. He will use his third gaze attack though for sure.

TG, if you want to improve the Demogorgon, I have thought you could give him a disease effect to his attacks, because, if a creatures is touched by Demogorgon tentacles, its flesh starts to rot.

I cannot comment on the weapons as in 3.5 it says they prefer to use their whips to drag people in which requires new animations.

I know that, but we don't have whips in BG2.

Mine is based on 3rd edition and TGM said she was combining the two and Balors were much nastier (as they should be) in 3/3.5

Now I need a clarification from you : what "two" she was combining ? First and second edition ?

There, death throw does 100 points of damage in a 100 foot radius, reflex save, constituion based allowed for 1/2, reguardless of where it is because that is its essence. It specifically omits the part about abyss.

Yes, I know that. Now I want to quote the Death Throe effect from 3rd edition : "When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half ). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based." Indeed, it does not say anything about the Abyss. But it does not specify that the Death Throe is available in all the planes either.
I want to justify my statement. Since those are fantasy creatures, we can't have so much info about them as for the real ones. So, I had to rely upon deductions. The 2rd edition specifies that Death Throe effect happens only in the Abyss. So, I asked myself : what's the difference between killing a Balor in the Abyss and killing a Balor in another plane ? There is only one difference : in Abyss, the Balors are slained forever. So, I can suppose the Death Throe effect is caused by this fact.
Now, lets pass to 3rd edition. In 3rd edition, the situation is the same. Balors can be killed for good only in the Abyss. So, I can suppose the Death Throe effect in 3rd edition also happens only in the Abyss.

Edited by Feanor, 13 June 2004 - 11:13 PM.

[Jinnai]

Mine is based on 3rd edition and TGM said she was combining the two and Balors were much nastier (as they should be) in 3/3.5

Now I need a clarification from you : what "two" she was combining ? First and second edition ?

2nd and 3.5

There, death throw does 100 points of damage in a 100 foot radius, reflex save, constituion based allowed for 1/2, reguardless of where it is because that is its essence. It specifically omits the part about abyss.

Yes, I know that. Now I want to quote the Death Throe effect from 3rd edition : "When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half ). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based." Indeed, it does not say anything about the Abyss. But it does not specify that the Death Throe is available in all the planes either.
I want to justify my statement. Since those are fantasy creatures, we can't have so much info about them as for the real ones. So, I had to rely upon deductions. The 2rd edition specifies that Death Throe effect happens only in the Abyss. So, I asked myself : what's the difference between killing a Balor in the Abyss and killing a Balor in another plane ? There is only one difference : in Abyss, the Balors are slained forever. So, I can suppose the Death Throe effect is caused by this fact.
Now, lets pass to 3rd edition. In 3rd edition, the situation is the same. Balors can be killed for good only in the Abyss. So, I can suppose the Death Throe effect in 3rd edition also happens only in the Abyss.

It does not in 3.5 MM say anything about them only being killed in the abyss perm. Not under Balors in particular or Demons in general.

[Feanor]

It does not in 3.5 MM say anything about them only being killed in the abyss perm. Not under Balors in particular or Demons in general.

Hmm, I have this info from TG...

[T.G.Maestro]

First:

TGM said she was

what "two" she was combining

...HE...

what kind of weapons do you intend to give to the Balors

If you take a look at the base post (save me that copy-paste please ), you'll see that in the "damage" section. I have two options however: add them a combined attack (Vorpal on 20%, 2D6+4 slashing, +2D6 fire, Fear if save vs. spell(death?) isn't successful at -2), or make them proficient in dual-wielding and add them two separate weapons: a claw and a vorpal attack. The vorpal should represent the sword, although I don't have a working animation for that one. In this case the effects are split between the two. Claw: 2D6, Fear is save vs. spell/death(?) isn't successful at -4. Vorpal flaming sword: 2D6+4, +3D6 fire, Vorpal on 20%.

TG, if you want to improve the Demogorgon, I have thought you could give him a disease effect to his attacks

Take a look at his attack items: he already has a disease effect on hit.

And about Death Throes: I think we will use a combined version. Even if slain in the Prime, they'll blow up in a medium-level Sunfire effect. It'll deal between 20-120 fire damage (save vs. breath for half).

[Feanor]

And about Death Throes: I think we will use a combined version. Even if slain in the Prime, they'll blow up in a medium-level Sunfire effect. It'll deal between 20-120 fire damage (save vs. breath for half).

Ugh ! ( Feanor tries to bribe TG to drop death throes)


By the way, here are some other info about the Demogorgon (just for the record) :

"DEMOGORGON (Demon Prince, Prince of Demons), Demon Power, male, CE
Attributes: Reptiles, Tentacled Creatures
Domains: Chaos, Evil, Strength
Symbol:
Typical Worshippers: Ixixachitl, cultists
Raiment:
Preferred Weapon:
Holy Days:


While the extent of Demogorgan's (DEE-mo-gor-gun) worship on Wearth in not generally known, his power in the Abyss is legendary. It is said that Demogorgan controls several layers of the Abyss, and that entire legions of demons follow his command. If rumor can be believed, over 100,000 fiends make their home in his capitol city in the Abyss. This gigantic Demon Lord is 18' tall and reptilian. Demogorgan has two heads which bear the visages of evil baboons or perhaps mandrills with the hideous coloration of the later named beasts. His blue-green skin is plated with snake-like scales, his body and legs are those of a giant lizard, his twin necks resemble snakes, and his thick tail is forked. Rather than having arms, he has great tentacles. His appearance testifies to his command of cold-blooded things such as serpents, reptiles, and octopi.

Tales and legends among the sahuagin, a hideous race of sea-humanoids common off the shores of Wearth, suggest that Demogorgan was once a servant of Sekolah, the sahuagin patron Power. Though the Prince of Demons holds great sway with the ixixachitl (another evil aquatic race), and is said to hate the sahuagin, this tale is at best hearsay.

There are several cults to this Demon Lord on Wearth, but so far no known human clerics of the Power."

Edited by Feanor, 15 June 2004 - 09:21 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

I find it really strange that while one description mentions him having two baboon-heads, the other mentiones two hiena-heads. For example tkae a look at this illustration from one of the Demogorgon documentations (3rdE):

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[Schatten]

uah, ugly.

[Feanor]

Look what I have found :

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[totte]

And from a newer source (D&D Miniatures Handbook, Art Gallery @ Wizards)

This is Aspect of Demogorgon, clearly with baboon/mandrill heads.

T.G. Maestro's picture above is from the Book of Vile Darkness' Art Gallery.

Seems like they switched art director at Wizards between those books.  

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Edited by totte, 17 June 2004 - 07:06 AM.

[Daggerless]

This is the best version of Demogorgon that I've seen thus far, IMO:

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[GreyViper]

No argument there , hell they should have this pic rather then the others.

[Daggerless]

Seriously, baboone skulls look much more frightening. In case anyone was wondering, I found this pic here: http://www.merzo.net/001demogorgon.htm

It's from a starship design website, so it probably isn't canon. But who knows, I haven't researched it at all beyond a google search.

The Bioware version looks odd, IMO:

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Edited by Daggerless, 28 June 2004 - 02:27 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Yes, the "skull" version might look good, but it is heavily unofficial in every aspects. Not a single MM decribes Demogorgon as having "skulls" instead of normal heads (either hiena or baboon).
Plus, I don't like this versions muscular look. I think the thinner versions are better.

[J Beau]

That "skull" version is scary as hell. Or should I say the abyss. Official or not, it gets my vote. I'd have second thoughts about facing anything like that!