74 replies to this topic

[Stone Wolf]

Hey! You're ruining the fun of watching these two. Stop that!

Look what we have here... a provocator...

Heh, I'm just enjoying seeing an arguement that isn't about politics! :bash:

[T.G.Maestro]

Too bad for you - there were MUCH more intriguing and nasty arguments here in the past...

Now, back to topic .

Edit: Huhh... 3000 posts...

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 21 September 2004 - 01:49 PM.

[Stone Wolf]

How about this: Instead of choosing between two options or having the player choose during installation, why not let the player choose which path to take in game?

[T.G.Maestro]

No, really, as I was trying to suggest in my previous post, I have a new (hopefully final) version of the ability. It lacks the flaws of my previous version, and won't introduce Time Stop as a monk ability, as Littiz suggested in his. I would avoid both, if possible.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 21 September 2004 - 02:04 PM.

[Schatten]

Edit: Huhh... 3000 posts...

spammer alert. :help:

[Littiz]

No, really, as I was trying to suggest in my previous post, I have a new (hopefully final) version of the ability. It lacks the flaws of my previous version, and won't introduce Time Stop as a monk ability, as Littiz suggested in his. I would avoid both, if possible.

Hm, first solution I proposed, I see
Most unharmful one... safe, but the ability loses much, becoming just a sum of simple effects.

BTW, you don't do me justice... I've not suggested *Time Stop* for monks
Too bad you haven't tried how my version works and looks, while I did try yours

Amen, back to RL work.

[T.G.Maestro]

Well, I give up. Why try to ask privacy from a man who was born for publicity..?

So, lets see the details then:

Hm, first solution I proposed, I see 
Most unharmful one... safe, but the ability loses much, becoming just a sum of simple effects.

Not entirely, though close to that one. First it seemed we cannot increse the movement rate bonus further than a fixed limit - the engine didn't seemed to support that. After some experimentation with the different opcodes, it turned out that it is indeed possible, though to what extent, I still don't know.
And now, for the part about losing much. What do you mean exactly? The special atmosphere? Yes, it is lost. Why? I think you shouldn't ask this question, you know well enough. I remember it was you who said in numerous posts that "we cannot release anything that has possible flaws or bug in it". Or "while the idea is great, it cannot be implemented". Or "it pains you to release something that is far from perfect, since it has questionable flaws". You even said that I cannot be turned from my opinion - now that I accept the only safe and clean solution (one that was also supported by you, right?), you say the ability became a shadow of its former self...

BTW, you don't do me justice... I've not suggested *Time Stop* for monks

Since we are most public right now, I guess it won't cause harm to tell that you had two propsed versions: one with a longer Time Stop perios in the 3rd round, and one with 1-2 seconds of TS effect at the end of each round. I'm a bit confused, what do you call these if not Time Stop? Using the TS effect to simulate something that has no real way to appear in-game? Again, it was you who said "Bioware would have created a special opcode/effect for this".

Too bad you haven't tried how my version works and looks, while I did try yours

Look, don't get this personal. Especially not since I gave you many good reasons why your idea won't work very well.
And even if it would look good (the idea was not bad, but TS is simply not the effect we are looking for here), it introduces new flaws, right after we get rid of mine. I can say again: how would you explain TS Immunity? Several powerful creature has it in the game (in ToB mostly), and if something would completely ruin the concept of your idea, this is it. This is the only part where I wonder if you ever gave a deeper thought to using the TS effect in this ability. Do you want a working and clean ability, or not?

You know, it is sad that IT cannot be implemented the way it was planned (what do you think, WHY did I force those loooong discussispellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netons in mail for weeks? ), though I really wouldn't call the latest version a "sum of simple effects".

Or am I wrong here?

[Feanor]

Wait wait wait, I know how discussions with you work
You can *barely* be moved from your positions, and only after EXHAUSTING efforts.

I know that very well, Littiz, you would need a tank to move Maestro just 1 inch.

[T.G.Maestro]

I know that very well, Littiz, you would need a tank to move Maestro just 1 inch

RRRAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH...!!! :bash: :bash: :bash:
"Die, die, all of you .. DIE!"

Edit: I guess I CAN be convinced, and I mean it. One needs to have solid arguments though, I admit.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 21 September 2004 - 11:52 PM.

[Littiz]

Not entirely, though close to that one. First it seemed we cannot increse the movement rate bonus further than a fixed limit - the engine didn't seemed to support that. After some experimentation with the different opcodes, it turned out that it is indeed possible, though to what extent, I still don't know.

My point was quite literally: renounce to the external effects, focusing on the monk's own speed. Nothing to debate, it was an evident action to take, actually

And now, for the part about losing much. What do you mean exactly? The special atmosphere? Yes, it is lost. Why?

Because it'd need something spectacular.
Sorry, but your former version hadn't that as well: since the implementation was evidently an "emergency" solution, it looked lame.

(one that was also supported by you, right?)

Yes, the simplier one was more acceptable until I had a better one, of course.

Since we are most public right now, I guess it won't cause harm to tell that you had two propsed versions: one with a longer Time Stop perios in the 3rd round, and one with 1-2 seconds of TS effect at the end of each round. I'm a bit confused, what do you call these if not Time Stop? Using the TS effect to simulate something that has no real way to appear in-game? Again, it was you who said "Bioware would have created a special opcode/effect for this".

A bit of order.
The relative speed you wanted between the monk and all other creatures couldn't be implemented that way. Technically the effect brought about 10 or more cases of inconsistencies, visually it lacked the needed "power", and in addition we had that horrible Slow icon displayed on party members!
But try to think about this: 8 attacks/round, while the others are "slowed". How many "free" attacks do you have, compared to others?
Reflect on it, this is a key point: your version wasn't that believable, either. The speed you saw in game had to be considered yet again doubled, since the others were "fictionally" slowed.
By translating all the speed on the monk's side I had just to keep a similar rate!
So I just added the idea of the monk "changing phase" while fighting (had you read Dan Simmon's Hyperion saga, you'd love the idea at once...)
The monk would be able to move faster + "change phase" for a moment or two.
He's already able to move "faster than the eye", so it's only a matter to add the ability of controlling a couple of free attacks for a moment. Here comes the TS effect, of short duration (and in which the monk's animation changes speed: I moved the visual, and added a pause_caster/unpause_caster combo effect after the visspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netual: things you haven't seen of course, that make the whole sequence play smooth and cool).

Here we are. If you think in terms of relative speeds and attacks, you'll see that this version *doesn't* change much from your first implementation: it's just that you don't realize it!
The main difference is that this one does work, and it adds some of the "spectacularity" this ability needed.

Look, don't get this personal. Especially not since I gave you many good reasons why your idea won't work very well.

Hmm, *I* gave many good reasons why yours couldn't work: a lot of errors and inconsistencies. I told you it before trying it, by seeing how you implemented it, yet you insisted.
And yet I did try it to give it a chance, I saw that it was even worse (slow icon), but still spent a lot of time in the attempt of smoothing the flaws.
No need to dig up the mails.
A lot of work for an ability I didn't believe in, you'll have to admit...

And when I happen to say that I might have a version that - in my modest and faulty opinion:
-removes all the technical flaws,
-adds the flavour,
-and visually looks cool,
you don't EVEN bother to try it.
This is the part that annoys me.
See it from my perspective:
You spit a couple of "good reasons", which in truth are only debatable opinions (let me delay the answer about TS) and you drop my idea without even considering to try it for a moment, while I wasted my time trying to build for you something that I already knew it couldn't work, and for which I had a long list of certain bugs and technical flaws.
If you don't see the difference in attitude, I can't help, but there it is.

You'd just want people working *for* you, not *with* you. Come on, admit it!
(You could at least have acted for a moment, to give me some "satisfaction", and say: "hmm, let me see it once"...).
I often leave the final word to you and you have generally freedom, ok, but acting as having the final word for granted, frankly, is not a kind behaviour.
So I think you must make a clear decision this time...
I'm available for the second option, if you want, but it must be supported by a behaviour, not only by declarations.

Oh, btw, I'm not saying this for "forcing" my version of the ability.
The "lame" version is definitive (amen), and I'll keep mine for myself.

(No, I'm not angry: I perfectly realize that this is only a game and a hobby, and that you're not SO bad, ok? You can't be if you bear me )

Edited by Littiz, 22 September 2004 - 01:29 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

The main difference is that this one does work, and it adds some of the "spectacularity" this ability needed.

And another bug of course. Do I have to repeat it?

Hmm, *I* gave many good reasons why yours couldn't work: a lot of errors and inconsistencies. I told you it before trying it, by seeing how you implemented it, yet you insisted.

It is surprising that it is YOU who tell me this you know. I remember a man who kept fighting for EVERY LITTLE BIT of character for the Sword Angel kit... Why? Because you loved the idea (your ideas)? Because it was something like a dream for you? Do you remember Littiz how many posts were spent on discussing/arguing/bartering over 3-4 abilities there? Do you remember how "easy" it was to move you from your point when you were satisfies by one of your creation (Body Puge VVC)? I guess you do. Oh, and do you remember how you reacted on my constructive criticism on some of the -in my opinion- flawed implementations? Simply observe your "attitude" (since you like to talk about mine so much) on such critical points in life, and you MUST know what I mean.
But you know what? I said those actions were more than acceptable, since I knew it was YOUR precious product (no ill means). And if you remember, you handled this situation with the same attitude at the start: you said you know this is my work, and you know that I put much work in it, etc. Well, up to the point where you got your own idea (flawless, as always), from then your attitude changed. No matter how I tried to stress you that we CAN'T introduce a Time Stop effect, you insisted too. You seem to be deaf towards my words when I say that there are numerous creatures throughout the game who are immune to this effect - causing major inconsistencies in the whole concept. No matter that I keep repeating this single FACT in my every previous post (and personal mail to you, where I asked several time to discuss these in private), you kept on analizing my behaviour and ill attitude. Do you sometimes perceive yours?

And when I happen to say that I might have a version that - in my modest and faulty opinion:
-removes all the technical flaws,

You see, thats what I keep talking about: you only see your own words. Nothing more.

This is the part that annoys me

Sure. Tell me then: could you tell me just ONE occasion, where I haven't tried something from you that WAS working and flawless? That would be a short list indeed.

I wasted my time trying to build for you something that I already knew it couldn't work, and for which I had a long list of certspellholdstudios.netain bugs and technical flaws

And? I thought this is what we do here in Refinements, or in RL. I'm not sure about your beliefs in life, but one thing I know for sure: I work for YOU if needed. I'm sure you forgot how many times you re-send ONE single bam for the SA, and I haven't even mentioned the others... was SA my work? No. Did I help (without a single word of complaint? Yes. Did you accept all of my "grounbreaking" ideas? No. Did I start flame threads in forums to compensate this treachery? No.) The only difference is that I won't keep complaining for you every time you criticise one of my product.

You'd just want people working *for* you, not *with* you. Come on, admit it!

I'm sorry if you feel so. You should have know me different. The fact that I try to implement something and actually believe in its success (yes, something that is dear to me, even if its a game) is far from being a slaver. Eh .

To be honest Littiz, you should spend equal time to analize your own attitude problems too. We could have settle this whole bullshit peacefully, and I asked you, begged you many many times. No. I guess there was a need for the public.
Did it change anything? Sure.

PS.: another thing you should notice in yourself is that you tend to see personal attaks and insults everywhere. Just remember, how many times did I started to flame you, or anything? I'm sure you won't count a single. And the opposite?
Oh, sure, its my ATTITUDE.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 22 September 2004 - 11:33 PM.

[Feanor]

Guys, I have a suggestion. It's not something unusual that 2 people don't come to an agreement because they can't convince the other. But, instead of starting to blame each other, why don't you ask the opinion of another skilled modder ? There are a lot around here..

[T.G.Maestro]

The problem here is not the technical part Feanor - to be honest we both are well aware of the flaw(s) of our versions. The problem is that neither of us can accept that the propsed ideas cannot be fully implemented (at least not without an IE Source Code.. ).

But I'd like to end this *pointless* argument. There are many points where work and assistance IS needed from both of us AND from the community, but this is not one of them.

[Littiz]

It is surprising that it is YOU who tell me this you know. I remember a man who kept fighting for EVERY LITTLE BIT of character for the Sword Angel kit... Why? Because you loved the idea (your ideas)? Because it was something like a dream for you? Do you remember Littiz how many posts were spent on discussing/arguing/bartering over 3-4 abilities there?

Your suggestions were tested where appliable, and in good part accepted.
But remember that you practically forced me to change a visual I didn't want to change, and you modified another one without even ask me.
And in top of that, add the fact the stuff produced by me have always been free from major flaws, and often even entirely perfect.

TGM, you seem to miss a simple truth of the whole situation.
*Sometimes*, it happens that something I'm not entirely happy with gets released in the mod, to please you.
The opposite never happens: you simply don't let it pass something you don't want (and so the examples you choose of SA backfire to you...)
On my part, the only thing I really oppose (always) it's stuff that doesn't work, for the rest you've always had a great deal of freedom.

And if you remember, you handled this situation with the same attitude at the start: you said you know this is my work, and you know that I put much work in it, etc. Well, up to the point where you got your own idea (flawless, as always)

I was trying to give a PROPER form to your idea. Had it been already perfect, I wouldn't have had to do it.
I am simply stating that you should have at least tried it, before dropping it (though I'm still convinced it was the perfect theorical solution).

You seem to be deaf towards my words when I say that there are numerous creatures throughout the game who are immune to this effect

Numerous? Don't know wath modders do with their mods, but I remember only Demogorgon, the Prince of Demons.
Mark my words: the Prince of Demons. He's also able to cast Time Stop as an innate, so it's perfectly acceptable if he doesn't allow a monk to become "faster" than him for a moment, "changing phase" with him (had you read Hyperion...)

Trying to weaken my position with the technical argument is pretestous, frankly
You're forcing me to list the weak points of your version:

• Slow Icon (hard-coded) shown on party members
  
• MANY creatures immune to slow (and they *are* many)
  
• Impossibility to to cut the "external" casting times to half of their values
  
• Need to use a fixed penalty for casting times, causing also inconsistencies with creatures immune to the slow effect but not to this one, or vice-versa
  
• Wrong behaviour with *already* hasted creatures (hasted state translated to a slowed state, instead of a mid speed state, as it should be)
  
• Cancellation of the "hasted" state for external creatures prolonged even after the conclusion of Inner Time
  
• Summospellholdstudios.netned creatures created at normal (= fast) speed
  
• Re-casting of the effects needed to *partially fix the previous problem, still accepting that "lower" creatures would move unacceptably fast for short periods of time, with NO possible explanation for such behaviour
  
• Wrong behaviour of creatures casting Haste *after* IT (they would get the monk's speed, instead of a mid speed)
  
• Possibility to abuse of the power: party members could take advantage of the NO SAVE slow effect applied on everyone, cast Haste or Improved Haste, and act as fast as the monk
  
• Slow effect (that is: modified time pace) lasting even when the monk gets killed, mazed, imprisoned...
  
• Environment not slowed

And I'm probably missing something.
With such a list of flaws, you kept insisting on your version, and you didn't even TRY mine for a moment...
Basically I was proposing a FIX, and I think I've proved that I know what I do, I've had my good part of nice ideas, and I found impossible solutions to impossible problems... you should know by now.
You weren't forced to accept it, but at least you should have felt obliged to see it and then judge (like I did on my part), trying maybe to understand my reasoning about relative speeds (it seems you didn't, yet), instead of sending your next file, without even giving me consideration.

If you don't understand this...
TGM, you're free to think we're working as an "equilibrate" team, but I'm free to think otherwise, and maybe we should end our collaboration friendly, at this point.

About the publicity: it's raised by itself (I just answered to you, who answered to me after a joke, but had you been a little more "sensitive" through the mails...)

Edited by Littiz, 23 September 2004 - 09:49 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

The problem here is not the technical part Feanor - to be honest we both are well aware of the flaw(s) of our versions. The problem is that neither of us can accept that the propsed ideas cannot be fully implemented (at least not without an IE Source Code.. ).

But I'd like to end this *pointless* argument. There are many points where work and assistance IS needed from both of us AND from the community, but this is not one of them.

Yeah, like anyone wants to get drawn into this. Everybody is much happier teasing them from the outside of the situation.

[hlidskialf]

The whole bitching session aside gentlemen, there is a technical compromise. If you create a timestop affect that applies to all creatures AND a slow effect on all enemies. That way any "timestop immune" cre still gets slowed, and the party never shows the icon. Just a thought, but with a bit of work I'm sure some kind of working soloution agreeable to you both could be attained.

[T.G.Maestro]

This seems to never end. Anyway, as I promised, I won't continue the argument from my part. I'll only reply to the technical points, this way we can avoid further b*tching for no real reason (and because of ONE SH*T ability, for God's sake..! ).

Numerous? Don't know wath modders do with their mods, but I remember only Demogorgon, the Prince of Demons

Count in Balthazar and Amelissan. And I'll check if needed, but I'm positive there was another one. And don't tell me they all "change phase". If so, they'd be as fast as the monk from the start (where he is normally hasted), not only at the fastest part, right?

And in top of that, add the fact the stuff produced by me have always been free from major flaws, and often even entirely perfect.

Then I guess you already understand why I keep arguing against the TS effect. If you really aim perfection, you shouldn't use it. While the idea IS nice (I discussed it with Caedwyr loooong ago, when Inner Time was only in its planning stage), it introduces a new problem. And then, we would come to the starting point: use an "acrobatic" description to hide the flaw. If only you'd understand that I'm not arguing against your stuff, but only against ONE-SINGLE-GODBLESSED effect. Nothing like a personal vendetta. It pains me to reduce Inner Time to a 'clean" version, and I'll be happy to add a working and grander version (even if it was done by you), but please, let us just ignore that TS effect, right?

You're forcing me to list the weak points of your version:

This is not a contest Littiz. Those flaws you mention are solid points, and I agreed to your words (after a period where I TRIED to overcome those problems, nothing more) to drop it.

*Sometimes*, it happens that something I'm not entirely happy with gets released in the mod, to please you.
The opposite never happens: you simply don't let it pass something you don't want

This is tricky. While you submit 5 new ideas, I submit 15. And don't tell me that I'm arrogant, this has nothing to do with it. And it has nothing to do with the FACT that you do most of the difficult technical tasks in the mod. You are always more than welcome to throw in new ideas (and 90% of those were added, AFAIK). And I'm also amazed that you seem to forget how many of my less attractive ideas went down the drain because you said so.
And I never complained. Argued, but never complained in the end.

maybe we should end our collaboration friendly, at this point.

To be honest, you can be worse than my girlfriend sometimes (oh, that Italian blood..!) - but still, the only thing that keeps my slightly happy is the knowledge that both of you can stop your (unnecessary) anger after a while.
So please. Lets just calm down, right?

Look, I can even smile, I cannot be THAT arrogant, right?

Now, I just HAVE TO drink a beer right now... :drunk:

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 23 September 2004 - 10:21 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Heh, after a beer... you know what? Send me that version of yours. Send it to me and I'll test it to see if we can use it or not...
:turnip:

[Littiz]

(and because of ONE SH*T ability, for God's sake..!  ).

Untrue, not for the ability

Count in Balthazar and Amelissan.

Another monk, and the half god boss...

Those flaws you mention are solid points, and I agreed to your words (after a period where I TRIED to overcome those problems, nothing more)

And I tried long as well. I've even been ready to accept the flawed version (before more flaws were spotted) if only we could remove the icon...

Heh, after a beer... you know what? Send me that version of yours. Send it to me and I'll test it to see if we can use it or not...

Oh, I appreciate it, but no.
You can't really think it was about the ability. I'm 28, you know! I'm trying to let you understand that it's hard for people (and friends!) working "with" you, that it's hard to have to fight, constantly, against a wall. :bash:
Sigh, have I just a bit succeeded this time???

P.S.: your gf sounds cool!

[T.G.Maestro]

Another monk, and the half god boss...

Excuses. We can live with their "Inner Time immunity", but the explanation would be far-fetched.

I've even been ready to accept the flawed version (before more flaws were spotted) if only we could remove the icon...

But you shouldn't accept it - while the temptation was great, I'm not a fool to add something THAT bugged.

You can't really think it was about the ability.

I'm well aware of it, don't worry. I was from the start, but hey..!

I'm 28, you know!

Heh, finally Littiz announced his age in the public...!
But this doesn't mean anything - one can be 50 and live with the same bad temper or be 15 and be wiser than an adult.

I'm trying to let you understand that it's hard for people (and friends!) working "with" you, that it's hard to have to fight, constantly

I know. But I never said otherwise, right?
Still, the knowledge that I'm not doing this to hurt anyone might serve as some kind of relief, I hope.

Sigh, have I just a bit succeeded this time???

You have succeeded on many points, you just don't want to recognize it.

P.S.: your gf sounds cool!

Yeh, she has the same temper alright...
Hmm, here is a pic of her... (she'll kill me for posting it, but anyway...)

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