27 replies to this topic

[Ellderon]

I got the armor thing working. Now I need to balance it.


Now, this are my current stats for armor:
**** **** ****

FULL PLATE MAIL
70% damage reduction from all
-5 casting speed
Weight 70
Required 15 STR

PLATE MAIL
60% damage reduction from all
-4 casting speed
Weight 50
Required 14 STR

CHAIN MAIL
60% from Missile/pierce, 40% Slashing, 20% Blunt
-2 casting speed
Weight 30
Required 10 STR

SPLINT MAIL
40% deamage reduction from all
-2 casting speed (I'll maby put -3)
Weight 35
Required 10 STR

SUDDED LEATHER
20% Slashin, Piercing, Missile, 10% Bunt
Weight 20
AC +1
No casting speed Penalty


LEATHER ARMOR
10% Damage Reduction from all
Weight 10
AC +2
No casting Speed Penalty

**** ****

Is 70% too much?
NOTE: that is approximate. It doesn't have to be 70% against ALL, but it's just for reference

I tested a 90% armor against Anoen with a common two-handed sword.
He gave me 1-3 damage on average (critical did approx) 12

[Ragnar]

I'd say 70% because since it doesn't give a AC bonus the amount of times you get hit should cover the high damage reduction B)

[Erephine]

Well, the AD&D Tables indicate that a full plate mail has an additional -4 bonus to blade weapons, and a -3 bonus to piercing weapons, while bludgeoning weapons are treated with the normal AC of 1.

[Quitch]

If you interest is in realistic armour, then should the only difference between Plate Mail and Full Plate Mail be in AC? After all, I don't believe Full is any thicker than Normal, it just covers more of the body, meaning you're less likely to take a bad full hit. Surely this is an AC issue?

[Ellderon]

Full palte actually was slightly thicker..


Here are the new stats:
***** ***** *****

FULL PLATE MAIL
70% damage reduction from all
-5 casting speed
Weight 70
Required 15 STR
Stealth -75
Pickpocket -65
Open Locks -35

PLATE MAIL
60% damage reduction from all
-4 casting speed
Weight 50
Required 14 STR
Stealth -70
Pickpocket -60
Open Locks -30

Elven has -30, -20, -15 and casting speed faster by 1
-----------------------------
CHAIN MAIL
60% from Missile, 40% Pierce, 40% Slashing, 20% Blunt
-2 casting speed
Weight 35
Required 11 STR

SPLINT MAIL
40% damage reduction from all
-2 casting speed (I'll maby put -3)
Weight 40
Required 12 STR


STEALTH PENALTY (-20), THIEVING PENALTY( Open Locks, Pickpocket)(-10)
Elven mail has -8 to all
-------------------------
SUDDED LEATHER
25% Slashing, Piercing, Missile, 10% Bunt
Weight 20
Requires 6 Strength
AC +1


LEATHER ARMOR
15% Slashing, Piercing, Missile, 10% Blunt
Weight 15
Requires 5 Strength
AC +2

Hide Armour (weight 40, 20% Resist to all, AC +1)

Magical armor retained their AC bonus.

Edited by Ellderon, 21 July 2004 - 01:15 PM.

[hlidskialf]

*Ponders commenting in detail "again" about how Hit Points in AD&D do not necassarily reflect an injury. They are both physical damage measures AND last minute tricks of experience, luck, and general skill that prevent actual injury. But decides against unleashing another oldtimer's lecture. *

[Crokus]

Shouldent you get a dex penalty when wearing plate mails?

[Erephine]

If you interest is in realistic armour, then should the only difference between Plate Mail and Full Plate Mail be in AC? After all, I don't believe Full is any thicker than Normal, it just covers more of the body, meaning you're less likely to take a bad full hit. Surely this is an AC issue?

This is not completely true. It says in the descriptions (IIRC) as well as in the AD&D books, that a full plate mail is indeed different to an ordinary plate mail. The plates are worked together differently, making full plate mails incredibly hard to manufacture. The advantage is, that you can move better in it, than with similar plate mails. It's not thicker, but it protects in a more efficient way. The fact that it covers more of the body is important, too, of course.

*Ponders commenting in detail "again" about how Hit Points in AD&D do not necassarily reflect an injury. They are both physical damage measures AND last minute tricks of experience, luck, and general skill that prevent actual injury. But decides against unleashing another oldtimer's lecture. * 

This is true. That's also the reason why a) you gain hitpoints with levels, and B) why fighters gain so ridiculously much hitpoints compared to mages for example.

This is also the reason, for example, why a character may survive say 10 crossbow 'hits'. While a low level character would probably be killed instantly (staight hit), an experienced fighter would probably not get hit straight in the face

[Rastor]

*Ponders commenting in detail "again" about how Hit Points in AD&D do not necassarily reflect an injury. They are both physical damage measures AND last minute tricks of experience, luck, and general skill that prevent actual injury. But decides against unleashing another oldtimer's lecture. * 

This is true. That's also the reason why a) you gain hitpoints with levels, and B) why fighters gain so ridiculously much hitpoints compared to mages for example.

This is also the reason, for example, why a character may survive say 10 crossbow 'hits'. While a low level character would probably be killed instantly (staight hit), an experienced fighter would probably not get hit straight in the face

And here, I often pictured it as being similar to what happens to Boromir at the end of the Fellowship movie. You are correct, of course.

[Erephine]

haha that Boromir scene was hilarious

[Ellderon]

I played the game a bit with these stats and I must say, so far it works like a charm...

I may have to increase the damage of arrows and some other missile weapons a bit tough...

EDITED the stats again. Sudded Leather and Leather should be a tad stronger..

[Chevar]

soaking damage, with ac.. percentages by type.. intersting concept. the percentages don't seem very real world based on real world history.

I always thought the soaking a % of damamge was as silly as throwing incredible amounts of HPs at characters as an appology for making them take normal damamge regardless of the armor.

Then again I'm not here to debate..

Platemail - full or otherwise should have the same 'soak' value. the weight difference is not in the thickness of the metal but in the overall amount used.. that value would be modified based on the alloy being used to make the armor.

platemail would be less protective against piercing and blunt weapons. slashing would have little to no effect.. but I think your percentages are a bit too generous across the board.

Keep in mind that an expert archer with a longbow on the field of battle could take down a knight in a single shot if they hit them right.. A bludgeoning weapon against platemail will cave in the armor with a decent hit.. Slashing weapons on the other hand were nearly useless. Keep in mind the most common weapon used against knights in full plate were military picks - hammer on one side and a long piercing spike on the other..

[DevilishPope]

I digress.
Full Plate Mail was angled as to deflect arrows, and even if one pierced through, under the armor would be a shirt of chain mail and then padding. Chain mail was notoriously effective at stopping arrows as the chains would catch the arrow tips, making them much less deadly, plus the padding underneath the chainmail to prevent such discomfort would provide a bit more of a barrier also. The bane of full plate is mainly bludgeoning and anything that can pierce with much force, aside from arrows.

Crossbows were developed, I believe, as an effective alternative to the archer, along with the wonderful side effect of launching small projectiles with enough force to pierce the armor of a knight, making it considerably more effective at taking down an armored opponent. So much, that I believe for a stretch the Pope banned Crossbows.

Edited by DevilishPope, 28 July 2004 - 11:24 PM.

[Quitch]

Actually, the crossbow was developed because it was notoriously hard to get Long Bowmen. To use the Long Bow you can to train from childhood because it required enormous strength to use. During the wars between England and France, England had an enormous advantage because, for whatever reason, the Long Bow was in fashion and thus there were plenty of people who could wield it on the battlefield.

The Crossbow on the other hand required no great strength to use it and had better range... but it was no where near as fast as the Long Bow.

As one American (Benjiman Franklin??) commented during the war of independance, had they had a company of Long Bowmen, the war would have been over in no time. He was right, the Long Bow was a far superior weapon to the musket, but it died out because of the sheer difficulty of finding people to use it, and the amount of physical training required to use it. It was a terrible weapon on the battlefield, penetrating armour with ease (and here I think you've been confusing the standardish bow with the Long Bow). Men who wielded it look like guerillas, with weedy legs but massive upper bodies.

[T.G.Maestro]

There is one point where this whole concept crumbles: you CANNOT allow to add high physical resistances to armors (or to anything), since it can easily result in a character with physical resistances above 100%. This will result in complete disaster, physical blows will heal the target. There are numerous items in BG2 that give physical resistance bonuses, and these are all stackable. If you add this new modification, nearly every character will have physical resistances on 124% in Chapter 2.

Ellderon, if you are interested, I already have a complete and balanced version of the Armor Revision (intended to be an upcoming component of the Refinements mod). It contains damage reduction by a fixed percentage, DEX modification and overall walking speed modification. It checks enchantment levels and has unique values for ALL armor types vs. all weapon cathegories. I can show you the details.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 29 July 2004 - 07:05 AM.

[Chevar]

I already have a complete and balanced version of the Armor Revision (intended to be an upcoming component of the Refinements mod). It contains damage reduction by a fixed percentage, DEX modification and overall walking speed modification. It checks enchantment levels and has unique values for ALL armor types vs. all weapon cathegories. I can show you the details.

Hmm. That sounds interesting.. I'd be interested in what kind of formula you used.. The reality level on damage soak is a little low for my liking. I don't think it's enough for a plausable system.

[Ellderon]

Interesting....

Well, I find it easy to edit these other few items..

And B.t.w. - I didn't change the helmets or bracers. I figure the better give an AC bonus, since without them, a guy in full plate gets hit an awfull lot..

But I'd really be interested to see how you handled it...


@Quitch - no I wasn't mistaken. I think you ment the composite longbow...

[Quitch]

The "composite longbow" was not its name at the time, it's simply a name people help invented over the years to have differentiate it.

Edited by Quitch, 30 July 2004 - 12:35 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

It is likely that I'll post the parameters here or in the Refinements forum in a few days. I already played the game with these new armors, and it was most interesting, to say the least. Right now the project is stopped, for we have other things to work on over at Refinements. Still, I have it at store for an upcoming component.

BTW, the main problem with this kind of armor revision is the lack of a specific effect, one that can be found in IWD2, but not in BG2. I'm referring to the Damage Reduction by a fixed amount" effect. This opcode can reduce the suffered damage by a fixed number, for example 10 points, and not by a fixed percentage. Trust me, it is much more useful to reduce damage that way than do with the percantages. Simply imagine a Full Plate. If a peasant hits you, he inflicts lets say, 5 points of damage. If the armor absorbs 20%, you'll suffer 4 points of damage, 1 point absorbed. With the same armor, if a Dragon hits you, it deals 35 damage. The armor absorbs 7 points, while 28 remains. This is far from realistic, if you ask me - the same plate absorbs such different damage values? Truth to be told, the character shouldn't even be scratched by the peasant's hit. Thats the downside of percentages, if you ask me.

There is a fine example for the ideal damage reduction system in IWD2's Ease of Use pack.