58 replies to this topic

[Renmauzo]

Ophidia, on Jan 3 2003, 11:11 AM, said:

I have to say that as a long-time Edwin fan, I think Laufey's representation of him is right on the nail. I read the romance ages ago, and liked it so much that I just had to offer to help! That's how I got involved in this mod.

As for Eddie continuing whoring, how much evidence is there for that in the game, really? Two references, if I am right: Gracie in the Sea's Bounty, and his comments if you pick him up in Throne of Bhaal ("And to think I had the wench bargained down to three gold for the night! Bah!"). There is plenty of other evidence that he chases anything in a skirt, I don't deny it, but considering how prone he is to exaggeration, how much of his supposed success rate do you actually believe?

I don't think any romance that is supposed to tug at the heart strings and have any depth to it could allow for him to be off every night getting God knows what diseases with God knows who!

I think thats the point, ie Edwin =! romance. I never use him, however, his condescending attidude just made me tell him off in the copper coronet so itll be interesting to see how this changes him.

[Nyx]

I've always wondered whether he's actually exaggerating. Obviously he's not always right, but I tend to believe he thinks he is, in any case.

Which means, I suppose, that he's either good with women or thinks he's good with women.

-Nyx

[Eocine]

Edwins "3 gold for the night" line may be exagerration but I'm inclined to doubt that it is. Why? because it's him talking to himself, I know people lie to themselves but I just don't see it in this case.

I also think that the romance end dialogue should be something along these lines.

(Muttering) Don't know what I was thinking anyway. I, Edwin Odesseron following this Simian wench. Women are good for only one thing anyway, and there are always more whores to scratch THAT particular itch....

[Laufey]

domi, on Jan 3 2003, 11:50 AM, said:

There is plenty of other evidence that he chases anything in a skirt, I don't deny it, but considering how prone he is to exaggeration, how much of his supposed success rate do you actually believe?

Hmm, a sucess rate with a whore is approximately 100%, I think. And if Edwin is to be done evil/egoistic to the backbone as in the game he'd not surrender the pleasures cause he is "involved". Also how can Edwin like say a LG Paladiness, or a rangeress be her intelligence 18? For an evil self-serving char  being good/charitable  is ultimately stupid... I dunno, may be you'd need some restrictions...

Well, this is obviously a point where we are going to disagree. I know you consider Edwin to be 'evil to the backbone', but I don't. I see him as being egotistical, certainly, but still capable of being selfless and caring with those rare few individuals he deems worthy of him. (Counted on one hand, admittedly.) I think anybody who isn't a complete psychopath is capable of love, and I don't think Edwin is that. Consider if you will a ruthless mobster, somebody most people would see as 'evil'. Yet he may still love his wife and children, and want to protect them.

And since alignment is only an artificial construct, I believe Edwin might very well fall for a lady paladin, assuming she wasn't of the type who'd prefer to smite him on the spot for being 'evil aligned', but rather tried to draw out his 'softer, gentler side', as Gracie in the Sea's Bounty put it. Besides, I only have the Intelligence restriction, and consider that enough.

[Laufey]

Renmauzo, on Jan 3 2003, 11:49 AM, said:

I think thats the point, ie Edwin =! romance.  I never use him, however, his condescending attidude just made me tell him off in the copper coronet so itll be interesting to see how this changes him.

Well, for one thing you'll get the opportunity to insult him back when he insults you, and he won't break off the romance, unlike Anomen. I know that's a feature I missed *many* a time while doing the Anomen romance.

[Laufey]

Eocine, on Jan 3 2003, 01:43 PM, said:

Edwins "3 gold for the night" line may be exagerration but I'm inclined to doubt that it is. Why? because it's him talking to himself, I know people lie to themselves but I just don't see it in this case.

I also think that the romance end dialogue should be something along these lines.

(Muttering) Don't know what I was thinking anyway. I, Edwin Odesseron following this Simian wench. Women are good for only one thing anyway, and there are always more whores to scratch THAT particular itch....

The 'Three gold' line is apparently what he says if you haven't got him when you reach ToB, but summon him into the party. If that is the case, the romance isn't active in the first place, and if the romance isn't active there's no reason why he shouldn't have been off chasing other girls.

As for your suggestion, I think you might perhaps be thinking of the 'Edwin Porno mod'. Romance is romance.

[Renmauzo]

Laufey, on Jan 3 2003, 01:49 PM, said:

Renmauzo, on Jan 3 2003, 11:49 AM, said:

I think thats the point, ie Edwin =! romance.  I never use him, however, his condescending attidude just made me tell him off in the copper coronet so itll be interesting to see how this changes him.

Well, for one thing you'll get the opportunity to insult him back when he insults you, and he won't break off the romance, unlike Anomen. I know that's a feature I missed *many* a time while doing the Anomen romance.

I like to think summoning him into the pocket plane and leaving him to rot teaches him some humility.. Hopefully he dies when it collapses-- although I doubt the scenery change will be much to his liking.. if it changes at all.

[Eocine]

Laufey, on Jan 3 2003, 01:53 PM, said:

The 'Three gold' line is apparently what he says if you haven't got him when you reach ToB, but summon him into the party. If that is the case, the romance isn't active in the first place, and if the romance isn't active there's no reason why he shouldn't have been off chasing other girls.

As for your suggestion, I think you might perhaps be thinking of the 'Edwin Porno mod'. Romance is romance.

Yes, there is no reason why he shouldn't be off chasing other girls, but that wasn't really that I was getting at. The fact that he had the confidence to barter the girl down would seem to show that Edwin has some experiance in these matters. What about early in the romance? how will Edwin be acting then?

Oh and for my suggestion I was thinking about having it as the ending dialogue it in only if the romance was ended in the first three or so love talks, before Edwin has been changed to much.

One final thing, what is the title of the Edwin writings you have done?

[Laufey]

Renmauzo, on Jan 3 2003, 02:00 PM, said:

I like to think summoning him into the pocket plane and leaving him to rot teaches him some humility.. Hopefully he dies when it collapses-- although I doubt the scenery change will be much to his liking.. if it changes at all.

Personally I would prefer doing that to Aerie, the NPC whose guts I really hate, but I can't quite bring myself to do it. It makes me feel too guilty. It's nice that there are so many different NPC:s avilable for our different tastes out there though, isn't it?

But if you do decide to play the romance and give Edwin a chance, you may perhaps grow a bit fonder of him. I know for certain that while I posted the dialogues back at the Attic at least a couple of self-proclaimed Edwin-haters gradually started to like him more and more.

[Laufey]

Eocine, on Jan 3 2003, 02:24 PM, said:

Yes, there is no reason why he shouldn't be off chasing other girls, but that wasn't really that I was getting at. The fact that he had the confidence to barter the girl down would seem to show that Edwin has some experiance in these matters. What about early in the romance? how will Edwin be acting then?

Oh and for my suggestion I was thinking about having it as the ending dialogue it in only if the romance was ended in the first three or so love talks, before Edwin has been changed to much.

One final thing, what is the title of the Edwin writings you have done?

The subject of other girls comes up circumspectly in the romance, with Edwin boasting of his prowess in typical Edwin fashion in order to try to impress the PC. Whether he's lying or telling the truth I'll leave unsaid, it's up to the player to interpret it.

And I see what you mean about the ending dialogue now. If there is no romance active at all when ToB finishes, Edwin will get the same dialogue as he does when the PC is male. Not the original ToB one, but not one referring to romance. The first lovetalks are very far from romance actually, like I said earlier this is a very gradual process.

In the Attic I posted them under the titles 'Edwin Lovetalk'. The message board software has been changed since then, but I believe it should still be possible to find them, though it was quite some time ago. If you want to read them and can't find them, I can always try to dig them out for you.

And of course, I'm also writing my own ongoing BG1-BG2-ToB novel, basically featuring the 'Extended Edition' of the Edwin Romance. *end Shameless Plug*

[Laufey]

jcompton, on Jan 3 2003, 05:48 PM, said:

Laufey, on Jan 3 2003, 07:46 AM, said:

I see him as being egotistical, certainly, but still capable of being selfless and caring with those rare few individuals he deems worthy of him. (Counted on one hand, admittedly.)

Presumably this wouldn't include Edwin in his established non-romance relationship with the PC. At THE moment in the game where selflessness is called for (Tree of Life gut check) we hear:

"And where do you suppose I should be going? You have a nose that seems to sniff out the path of power, and I will wrest what portion of it I wish until I am sated.. (And then, perhaps, we see what becomes of *you*!)"

...unless of course you think he's lying here, too, in which case I think I have no idea how to tell when he stops.

(from memory, the only NPC with a more distasteful response at this portion of the game is non-romance Tashia, who deserves the CTRL+Y Of Doom for her irreverence, or should at least have the decency to ACTUALLY abandon the party if she really doesn't care.)

As you say, this is in a non-romantic relationship.

And furthermore: I think you have made it perfectly clear that you don't like Edwin. That is certainly up to you, I neither can nor would presume to try to 'make' you like him, particularly since it sounds like you have very much made up your mind a long time ago. That said, I wonder why you seem so very eager to try to convince me that he is incapable of being in a romance? I have a different opinion than you do, one shared by many people, and am no more likely to change my mind than you are. I am not bothered by you disliking Edwin, and I hope you aren't bothered by me liking him.

None of us own the 'One Truth' about any of the NPC:s, we all see them differently, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. People may consider Jaheira, Nalia, Keldorn, Sarevok or any other NPC likable or unlikable and who is to say who is right or wrong? You, or anybody else playing this mod may accept my premise or not, that's really up to you. It's a bit like trying to 'prove' whether blue is a pretty color or not, it's an argument nobody can win since it is all a matter of opinion.

My personal advice for anybody curious about Edwin as a romantic prospect is to play the mod, and then make up their minds afterwards on whether they found it believable or not. But yes, the basic premise *is* that Edwin is capable of being in a romance in the first place, and that is not something I intend to debate.

If you don't want to play it, that's up to you.

[Laufey]

jcompton, on Jan 3 2003, 06:59 PM, said:

What I'm not following here is that you seem to imply that I must like Edwin in order to have a right to express my opinion about your characterization. It is, ultimately, your writing and will ultimately be your mod, I am not demanding that you change anything to please me. (for the record, I do not reject outright the notion of an "Edwin Romance." I'm just not sure I see its progression the way you do.)

I'm also a bit troubled at your invoking "one shared by many people", as though that's a dare to get me to line up people on my side or something silly like that before my right to express my opinion about your characterization will be recognized.

I will indeed investigate the mod when it's done. I'll be happy to answer Dorotea's implementation questions to the best of my ability along the way just as I did for Redemption, too.

No, you certainly do not have to like Edwin to express your opinion, and I never meant to imply it, quite the contrary in fact. However, certain things are and always will be matters of opinion, not fact. If you are firmly convinced that Edwin is not capable of acting selflessly, or being in a romantic relationship, then you are questioning the basic premise of the mod, and whether you intended it or not, that was the impression I got. There's really very little I can do to convince you otherwise, and no reason to. You have a right to think what you like, same as I do.

If you do not agree with the progression of the romance as written by me, that's certainly up to you as well. However, as it is already fully written (and somewhat revised after I published it at the Attic), I am not about to rewrite it at this point.

And no, you don't have to invoke people who agree with you, I'm sure that many people do, as well as many people no doubt agree with me. Many people love Edwin, many people hate his guts, and many are indifferent. All opinions have a right to exist. As I said, this is all about *opinion*, not about absolute truths. I can no more 'prove' that Edwin is the most lovable NPC in the game than you or anybody else can 'prove' the opposite, but of course this will make us have very different opinions on what the proper characterization for him is.

That said, I am certainly grateful for your offer of help, and if you do decide to try the mod out I hope you will find it worth your while.

[dorotea]

Hey guys, calm down a bit!

Jason, first of all you are forgetting that we girls generally like 'bad boys' and Edwin appeals to majority of ladies out there exactly for the same reasons that you as a male do not like him!

So, I see it a s great development that after somewhat jerky but straightforward Anomen and a number of Mods ( Kelsey, Soula) with passionate romantic guys we will have one with a sarcastic and somwhat spoiled but very witty 'bad boy' Edwin!

After all - nobody is asking you to fall in love with him, but many a female just may!

And the amount of new quests, interesting new characters and really good humor in this mod will surely compensate you for Edwin somewhat loose principles!

[Eocine]

The only thing that concerns me is that Edwin is my favorite NPC and I hope that the changes made to him in this mod mean that doesn't change.

[Laufey]

Eocine, on Jan 3 2003, 08:14 PM, said:

The only thing that concerns me is that Edwin is my favorite NPC and I hope that the changes made to him in this mod mean that doesn't change.

If Edwin is your favorite NPC, I certainly hope so as well. He will still be sarcastic and insult people left and right, all the way. He will still have a very high opinion of himself. However, we will also get to see other sides of him, and I hope you will find the experience an enjoyable one. If you have any specific questions, do not hesitate to ask.

[Culain Mainframe]

What if play as a male, will you get more quests and banters, maybe start a friendship?

[Laufey]

Culain Mainframe, on Jan 3 2003, 09:01 PM, said:

What if play as a male, will you get more quests and banters, maybe start a friendship?

You will have the opportunity to flirt a little with the fair Edwina. If many players of male PC:s would be interested in a deeper friendship with Edwin, perhaps this is something that could be added to a later version. I would certainly enjoy trying my hand in it. So far however, the new quests are strictly for ladies.