28 replies to this topic

[Deva]

I worried about Ninde being a Mary-Sue. She's attractive, yes, and has a typically convoluted past, but then I thought, like in real life, she's such a horrible bitch to everybody that her attractiveness becomes pretty unnoticeable. It would take a pretty masochistic/determined man to really want a romance with her. She's a flawed character, but endearingly so, off-puttingly so.

Powerful class? Well, a straight-up specialist mage is a pretty powerful class, but not ludicrously so. Her stats, while high here and there, reflect her character pretty accurately, and her very low con and strength balance her out a bit. She's not going to have any overpowered equiptment either.

After thinking it through, yah, I'm pretty sure she's not a Mary-Sue.

[berelinde]

The ultimate test is player perception. Which is why I seriously advocate playing the first alpha yourself, with as much objectivity as you can muster. If the NPC gets on your own nerves, he or she is likely too Suish.

Not every modder can muster that degree of objectivity, but most are perfectly capable of it.

And that's why it's also good to include some skeptics in the alpha testing pool

[Kulyok]

I was just thinking about Mary-Sues, as I was walking through the park last evening.

And eventually I came to think that the biggest and the most beautifully drawn Mary-Sue was Jesus, and (some) people, while drawing their Mary-Sues, unconcsiously strive to perfection, to this ultimate image of love.

... which, of course, doesn't prevent me from thinking that, yes, some character concepts are better off in the store cupboard.

[berelinde]

I'm sure you didn't mean to compare the central figure of many people's religion to the fictional product of somebody's imagination.

I understand that you probably intended to say that writers try to capture that idea of celestial love personified, but are limited by their own humanity or something equally sage. But there is the chance that what you just wrote might be perceived as offensive by some with more sensitive religious convictions. I know that wasn't your intent, though

[Kulyok]

Well, some fanatics think that Harry Potter books should be burned, too. And, no, I do not appreciate when someone puts words in my mouth, or tells me my own motives.

I think to some level, a concept of Mary Sue is subjective. And for me, personally, a character has a high chance to become a Mary-Sue(even though she isn't one for someone else), when she is perceived through other character's eyes, and I never see her point of view; she never speaks for herself, never gives me a window into her motivation and emotions. Irene from The Forsyte Saga and Ginny from Harry Potter books are good examples for me, though both have a darker side to them. But mostly I start to feel uncomfortable when I feel that the concept of "Look how good this character is!" is shoved down my throat. Which is, again, subjective to some level, though there is an almost universal agreement about some series(Deletrius community, anyone?).

[Kulyok]

And one of the funniest Mary-Sues rebuttals, barring even "the character shares the author's name, yes, but this is all pure coincidence" one. Ed Greenwood is responsible:

Ed does want to stress that the opinion sometimes expressed on these forums (that Mystra and her Chosen are his "personal favourites," and are Mary-Sues because of that) is wrong. The focus on these Realms characters has been created and nurtured by TSR and WotC editors, in the same way that gamers (and other Realms writers) continue to be fascinated by matters godly. Ed is just as much of a "fan" of Shar, who is also his creation. The Shadow Weave (not Ed's creation; it came from an orphaned Birthright novel by Rich Baker) had always meshed "awkwardly" with the Realms, and Ed would love to banish that awkwardness somehow, NOT get rid of the Shadow Weave.

I so loved the first sentence. "Um, but some people think they are Mary-Sues, because of the way they are written; whether the author loves or hates a character is irrelevant here" doesn't even count, I suppose.

Around two years ago, nethrin wrote "I created saerileth--therefore I know her better than you do. I'm right. and if you don't agree with me, you're wrong". (I don't know about the mod, but the statement had me in stitches). But reading basically the same thing from one of the Realms' creators is just too funny.

[vilkacis]

Was it really necessary to dig up this topic again...?

Just as you said, the concept of Mary Sue is subjective. Perhaps Greenwood just has a higher Sue treshold...

[berelinde]

Dunno. For all that I might bristle at the idea of naming names, I think there might be something to be said for indulging in Sue discussion.

I want to make it clear that I express my own private opinions, and that I speak as an NPC modder, not as a player or in any other capacity. As a modder, I find Sue discussion helpful.

Talking about Sues raises Sue awareness, and that's useful knowledge for modders who actually want to avoid creating a Sue. Ideally, I would prefer that this discussion talk about Sue attributes or behaviors rather than identities, but that's just me.

Talking about Sue attributes, with examples can be done using the hypothetical tense, and to me, that's the best way to go. (Hey, lookee! I just invented a new element of grammar!) This takes time and tact, and neither are universally abundant resources. Linking to a review thread for the NPC in question as an illustration doesn't push my hot buttons, because the modder is free to advocate or defend his NPC in whatever way he sees fit as part of the review process. Linking to the modder's own words *in context,* as Kulyok's example does, doesn't offend me, either, because the modder already posted it in public.

If it were up to me, I would prefer to see Sue illustrations look like the following, but that is my opinion.

"To me, mandatory quests are one of the more odious attributes of a Mary Sue, especially if they impose a stronger compulsion on the PC than his or her own quests. If I must complete a six-hour real-time mod NPC quest before I do *anything* on my own agenda, like preventing Anomen from killing Saerk, or returning Renfeld to the Harpers, I will probably never recruit that particular mod NPC again."

Also, I have a personal interest in Sue-avoidance. As an NPC modder myself, I have my own reasons for wanting to know what people find offensive about mod NPCs. Which is kind of tricky, since I would most definitely *not* want to see this thread turn into killing field for mod NPCs!

And that is why I would like to see more objective reviews of mods, one that gives general information, pros, and cons, preferably in a standard format, with open discussion to follow. It is difficult to be completely objective about something that is, by definition, subjective, but I think a quality review would be another weapon in the arsenal of Sue elimination. Point the modder or player in the right direction and let him decide for himself.

Would anyone care to review Gavin?

But you do have a point, Vilkacis. Current discussion does trump necroposting.

[berelinde]

Moved posts discussing the relative merits of mod reviews to http://www.shsforums...p...c=27387&hl=