27 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

First off, before I give details, let me explain what this poll question is NOT about.

It is not about any alignment hits that come about through dialogue.

It is not about Mortuary Dustmen. I'm not gonna touch them.

So, if you're already angsty about the question, relax. Those two big controversial subjects aren't involved here.

Okay, now... if you read the latest in my thread about a proposed alignment fix mod, you'll understand what led to this. Scient discovered a field in the CRE file that indicates that killing certain critters should get alignment hits, but it's conditional on a second field as well. I discovered that with very few exceptions (Jolmi, Qui-Sai, and the brothel patrons but not the prostitutes) pretty much every critter in the Clerk's Ward and any adjacent building, including the Festhall, they all have the one field set to give logical alignment hits but the other field prevents them from actually happening.

I feel very very confident that this is a systemic bug, probably a result of their using bad templates when coding up the Clerk's Ward. We've got two fields in question, one says give them alignment hits, the other says don't. It is ambiguous, and I feel comfortable in making the judgment call when we've got evidence going both ways, particularly when there's just no logical reason why you should be able to raze the Clerk's Ward and the Festhall, killing every last single living creature, and suffer maybe only two or three points of Chaos and Law and Murder, and not piss off the Lady at all. That's just wrong, and I've got non-arbitrary evidence to justify activating those alignment hits as a fix. So, that's going in the Fixpack, period. This poll is not about the Clerk's Ward fixes. Post-fix, the only critters that won't give alignment hits in the Clerk's Ward are

Spoiler

Sarhava and her toadies, and the poser thugs with Mertwyn's box.

because they're pretty hostile. One could argue they should get hits too, because a fight is avoidable, but I'm trying to -not- include anything that could be reasonably controversial.

What the poll is about is fixing alignment hits that I really really really really really want in the Fixpack, but I don't have any actual in-game evidence for them. But it's also just completely inconsistent and illogical that you can kill these critters without suffering alignment hits.

Just as an example, in the vanilla game, you can kill the following with impunity. No alignment hits, no annoying the Lady, no add to your MURDER count, nothing. Neither field is set for them.

1) All Hive Touts (!)
2) Some, but not all, unnamed Hive Dwellers. Even inconsistent between ones that share the same dialogue file.
2) Sev'Tai (!)
3) Pox
4) Ingress (!)
5) Jhelai
6) Craddock
7) Creeden the rat tail vendor (!)
Ebb Creakknees (!)
9) All the brothel prostitutes. You do get alignment hits for the brothel -patrons- though.
10) All Harmonium Guards, excepting Corvus and Drixel
11) Hamrys
12) Most shoppers and vendors in the SW Hive Market
13) Reekwind (!)
14) Candrian (!)
15) Nodd (!)

These are all complete innocents. Hell, Sev'Tai and Ingress are just plain pitiful.

On the other hand, you DO get alignment and murder hits (and Lady hits if they are in Sigil) for killing:

1) Baen the Sender
2) Dabuses (EDIT: Oops, incorrect. The increments for LAW, GOOD and MURDER are set but the flags aren't on. They only give LADY hits.)
3) Dhall (though the Lady doesn't care)
4) Corvus and Drixel, the Harmonium Guards
5) Warehouse workers in Curst
6) Deran the slave auctioneer in the Lower Ward
7) Most of the restored Curst Prisoners
All the Dustmen in the Dustman bar
9) Some but not all unnamed Hive Dwellers walking right -next- to Ingress, Pox, Creeden, etc.
10) Every unnamed Hive Harlot
11) Brothel patrons
12) The executioner judge in Carceri
13) Random lower ward wandering people
14) Most, but not all, Buried Villagers
15) Most shoppers and vendors in the Lower Ward market
16) Your pet Lim Lim (just Chaotic Evil hit though, not MURDER, thank God)
17) Roberta
18) Nodd's sister Amarysse

It is so inconsistent as to cry.

I'm not talking about removing hits from those that have them, I'm talking about adding hits to the pure innocents in the first list. I don't plan on adding hits to anyone controversial (like, say, Marta... whom I think it's pretty damn evil to kill but someone could whinge). If it's even remotely controversial, then I'll do them in the proposed alignment mod I'll do someday... but I just can't see any reason why anyone on that first list should NOT give alignment and MURDER hits, considering some people on the second list that do.

Again - I only want to apply the no-duh, obvious hits in the Fixpack (everyone on that first list would be an example, though obviously not the demons or even the Mercykillers in the SC Bar). If it's even slightly controversial, no change except in a separate mod.

Now, with that all understood - do you think the creatures in that first list I gave should get alignment hits for murdering them in the Fixpack, or do you think they should remain in a separate mod -anyway-? If you vote no, I'd really like to hear the reasoning as to why killing Roberta the Husband Killer is chaotic evil, but killing Hive Touts is a-ok, please. Actually, no, that's not what I'm asking, what I'm asking is, do you really think that was -intentional-?

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 02 July 2009 - 02:42 AM.

[Qwinn]

Just documenting some of the more interesting CRE alignment hits as I review all this, so I don't forget 'em. Some I'll fix, some I won't.

Killing Baen the Sender or Dhall decrements rather than increments the MURDER count. Fixed.

Killing Mar annoys the LADY and counts as a MURDER, but it doesn't give a chaotic or evil hit. Looks intentional. No change.

Killing the following actually makes you more Lawful Good: Ignus, Vlask, Vlasks's henchmen. No change.

Killing Strahan Runeshadow makes you more Good (no law hit). No change.

Sandoz the Godsman Factor: The single instance in the entire game where the previously described issue of the increments being set but the flags being off is reversed. Sandoz has his flags set on but the increments are all 0. Setting the increments to the standard -1 GOOD, -1 LAW, +1 MURDER, +1 LADY, although I will reverse at least the latter two if he kills himself in dialogue.

Killing your Good Incarnation in the Fortress actually lowers Good and Law by 2, instead of just 1. This is the only alignment hit in any CRE in the game greater than 1 in either direction. No change.

Dabuses apply double hits to LADY, 5 points from their scripts and 5 points from the CRE. Probably an error, but I see no real strong reason to change. I'd think if the Lady's going to get upset for you killing 10 dabuses, 5 will do also. And I was wrong in the above list - Dabuses have their increments for Good, Law and Murder set, but the flags are off, like the Clerk's Ward critters. Only the LADY flag is turned on. Probably won't change in Fixpack, likely will change in separate alignment mod.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 02 July 2009 - 02:39 AM.

[nevill]

do you think the creatures in that first list I gave should get alignment hits for murdering them in the Fixpack, or do you think they should remain in a separate mod -anyway-?

I'd say the fixes should stay in a separate mod for no other reason than this mod will definitely come out then. Now, if only I knew how to vote to make "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" appear sooner...

Seriously, though, it's so glaring an oversight, I wonder why you are even asking.

Edited by nevill, 02 July 2009 - 06:01 AM.

[Qwinn]

Seriously, though, it's so glaring an oversight, I wonder why you are even asking.

As you'll note, someone already voted no. Sigh.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

As noted, most dabus (actually, almost all dabus share the same CRE file, so it's really just one file) have the Increment field set to affect all of the globals, but they don't have the flags for GOOD, LAW and MURDER set. However, the dabus in the pregnant alley does... and you actually have a theoretical -reason- to kill that one, as opposed to other dabus which would just be acts of random murder. So, based on that, I'm going to activate the flags for those hits for regular dabus too.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 02 July 2009 - 08:17 AM.

[nevill]

As you'll note, someone already voted no. Sigh.

I kind of understand why some would want to vote for 'no'. Kind of. See, it would be good to have everything in one place, not scattered between the various mods. I like how it was handled in BG2's Fixpack with it's 'Core Fixes' component and a number of optional components that immensively improve the gameplay but might be seen controversial by some die-hard purists. Besides, this eliminates the need for lenghty arguements. You don't like it - you don't install it. But I feel like your idea of a Fixpack is entirely different.

Edited by nevill, 02 July 2009 - 09:30 AM.

[Kung Fu Man]

Hm, something that might be worth checking (voted yes btw, this does seem to be an oversight), but did you see if any of the characters that can turn hostile through dialogue options have these set? I don't think they do, but if it happens might be best to handle the increments within the character's script instead (no point in treating killing someone as a random murder if they're trying to kill you, after all).

[Qwinn]

So far the only character I've found that is very likely to initiate hostilities that has these set is Adozyel. Since he's a restoration anyway, I don't have a problem turning them off for him. He's the only one I'm seriously considering taking the hits away for.

Well, that and probably the Curst Prisoners, also restored. I'm just worried they might get killed during the escape by Curst Guards and you suffer the penalty for it. Then again, Roberta can wind up in the prison and she has the hits set... so, puzzling this one out.

I have to be careful in some other places. Like, example, Pestle-Kiln. When you give him the elixir so that he separates, his script does a "DestroySelf()" command and creates Pestle and Kiln separately. Since I activated his hits (he's one of the Clerk's Ward guys that had the increments but not the flags) will that DestroySelf() trigger the alignment and murder hits? If so, I'll have to compensate (probably just by adding reverse hits in the script when he does the destroyself action, to offset them). I just gotta watch out for odd stuff like that.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 02 July 2009 - 10:27 AM.

[Qwinn]

Oh yeah, one other batch where I've deactivated alignment hits is the bunch of Curst in Carceri guys being wiped out by a couple of demons, and if you kill the demons before too many of them die, they all stand around praising you. I took the hits off them because, well, when the demons killed them, it was affecting -your- alignment and blaming you for their murder. Pretty easy to consider that a bugfix.

I'm avoiding adding any hits to CRE's that wind up in Carceri for that reason. Way too easy for critters to get killed in that area and have it wind up blaming you for it.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 02 July 2009 - 11:03 AM.

[Qwinn]

A few more examples of critters that you could kill with impunity. No alignment hits for slaughtering:

16) The Crier of Es-Annon. (!) And Iron Nalls. And Gaoha. And all the merchants near them. Actually, pretty much every last person outside in the SW section of the Hive was missing their hits.
17) Pretty much anyone in the Foundry. Yes, you could wipe out the Godsmen and keep a sparkly shiny soul. Not anymore.
18) Iannis (!!!!!!!!!!!!)
19) Alais, Drusilla, Andro, and the other unnamed Smoldering Corpse Bar patrons.
20) Mebbeth, Marta and Ei-vene. Yes, I changed my mind and decided to add hits for them. There's no valid reason to kill them until you reach Ravel, and you can't kill them afterwards.
21) Fell
22) Lenny
23) Lazlo, the kid in the Lower Ward market
24) Mourns For Trees

And some more examples of critters that -did- have alignment/murder hits (I was wrong about everyone in the Dustman Bar... only some of them, listed here):

19) Emoric
20) Sere
21) Awaiting-Death
22) Byron Pikit. Heh.
23) Brokah. But not Miccah.
24) The two barkeepers in the Clerk's Ward - just about the ONLY killable critters outside in the CW that it was evil to kill. Because of the BEER.
25) The sleeping Bariaur in the flophouse... but not the awake one near the SCB.
26) The modrons in the brothel. And Nordom. Because of these, I'm also giving them to the modrons in the cube, minus the Lady hits.
27) The brothel caretaker.
28) Nestor the crazy fork guy in the flophouse... but not the guy who owns the joint.
29) Phineas T. Lort

Some of these inconsistencies amuse the hell out of me.

You know.... killing all the women in the brothel - okay. Killing the men in the brothel - evil. Killing Brokah is bad, killing Miccah is good! PS:T is -clearly- a tool of propaganda for the patriarchy. Have any gender studies majorettes done their doctorate thesis on this, and if not, WHY NOT?

... alright, so I need a nap.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 02 July 2009 - 11:45 AM.

[Qwinn]

Further info:

Although it's arguable, I won't be adding any hits for killing the undead in the Dead Nations. For one, when you first walk in, you are pretty much directly threatened, and I don't think it's necessarily evil to defend yourself in that situation (good luck winning against that mob, of course). Secondly, can you really murder the already-dead? Too many reasonable arguments could be made about it for the Fixpack, IMO.

I'm pretty much done with my sweep now, and yeah, other than the ones I mentioned (Adyzoel, Curst Prisoners, Carceri cannon-fodder), there's really no instances I can see of undeserved or unreasonable alignment hits. The error is pretty much always a lack of obvious hits, never an excess of them.

I'm not sure what's going to happen if you blow up the Foundry machine and kill a crapload of workers. Frankly, if that results in fairly significant alignment hits due to all the deaths that causes, I'll be delighted. Always bothered the hell out of me that you could do that for the Anarchists without any effect on your alignment whatsoever.

Qwinn

[Kung Fu Man]

Ei-vene

Can't she go hostile if you just push her away or if the Dustmen are on alert? Be careful of Ignus's girlfriend too, since she goes all "blaze of glory" once you wake his sorry butt up.

Edited by Kung Fu Man, 02 July 2009 - 02:09 PM.

[Qwinn]

Good call, you're right, Ei-vene's off the list. And yep, I've got Drusilla on my list of those to test.

Qwinn

[gothemasticator]

This is great stuff, Qwinn. Thanks.

gothemasticator

(voted yes)

[Epantiras]

Voted yes.

[Qwinn]

26) The modrons in the brothel. And Nordom. Because of these, I'm also giving them to the modrons in the cube, minus the Lady hits.

Ain't crazy modrons like completly different creatures, like monsters of a kind?

The way I looked at it, crazy modrons are -more- "alive", individuals, than non-crazy modrons. If the non-crazy modrons in the brothel - ones with almost no individuality - qualify for the hits, then I figure ones that are starting to develop some individuality certainly should. And note that Nordom himself, the craziest modron, also gets alignment hits in the original game. So, either way you look at it...

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 03 July 2009 - 06:20 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, this is just bloody weird.

I checked to see if any critters were having the globals changed by -scripts-, and turned out there were more of those then I thought (only one in the Hive though, Baen the Sender). But guess what?

The vast bulk of those who have alignment hits in their scrips are the ones who -already- were giving hits based on their CRE! The exact opposite of what you'd expect. Very few that were missing the hits in the CRE are compensated in the script, it's mostly duplicating hits for ones that already had it. However, the scripting ones fired off only under extremely specific and inexplicable circumstances...

There's a variable that gets set by scripts when you attack or kill an innocent that effectively means "the Harmonium have been summoned". The alignment hits from scripts ONLY happen if the Harmonium -hasn't- been called. Also, the moment you first attack them, the Harmonium are called. So the only way these alignment hits can take place is, as far as I can tell, everything was peaceful-like and then you one-shot-one-kill one of these guys. For most of them, it then counts as two murders cause they were already being set in the CRE. Then, you could wipe out everyone else in the area and no hits from scripts because the cops are still summoned.

So for example, you one-shot-kill Aalek in the Lower Ward Market, and you get -2 to each global, one from his script and another from his CRE, including counting as 2 murders. (If it took you more than one swing to kill him, the cops are called and you only take 1 hit to each). But then you could kill everyone -else- in the Lower Ward Market and you'd only get hits from their CREs after that, because the cops were active at that point, and the scripts won't give their hits when the cops are out. Does this make sense to anyone? Totally befuddles me.

I'm inclined to purge those scripted alignment hits, they just make no sense at all, and if they -did- work then usually it made the victim count as -two- murders when he died. And that's in the vanilla game.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

The good news: Tested on Pestle-Kiln. The scripting that told him to Destroy himself (in order to recreate in two parts) did -not- trigger the alignment/murder hits. That's a big load off, I don't have to worry about Drusilla or any other scripted sequencing where CRE's destroy themselves. Phew.

Qwinn