43 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Thanks for reading this, everyone. It's a potentially really big thing that would substantially alter the way this game is played - and I think very much for the better.

First, I'd like to announce a -major- engine fix by scient. I noticed that a lot of times, switching from one weapon to another, TNO's combat stats (To Hit, Damage, Number of Attacks) wouldn't update on TNO's character sheet. It turns out, this was not simply a UI bug - if this happened to you, TNO really would have those non-updated stats in combat. Scient has fixed this, and now all stats recalculate properly whenever you change weapons. That's a -big- thing. Huzzah!

This all started, actually, from my noting that weapon proficiencies never update any character's To Hit bonus either. We've still to determine if that's just a UI bug or if no character ever actually gets that bonus in combat. Stay tuned for that too.

Anyways... in discussing all this, something has occurred to me that is kinda astonishing, to me at least. We all know that you keep the best THACO of your 3 classes... that is, if you leveled to 10 as a fighter, then switched to level 4 mage, you'd keep a base 11 THACO. I'm actually thinking now that it wasn't supposed to be that way. That when you "give up the way of the Warrior", and take up the Art, you're supposed to have the THACO of a mage, but the game isn't updating your THACO properly, for similar reasons to why it's not updating it for proficiencies.

And with that came the thought leading to the other poll question. The manual explicitly says that TNO is supposed to gain 1-10 hit points when reaching a new level regardless of what class he levels in. That's not how it works either. If you reach your new class as a mage, you only get 1-4 hit points. The manual is a -really big indicator- that this is a bug.

Were we to change this, it would profoundly affect how one plays the game. Frankly, every time I've played this game, I -always- play through the entire Hive and Lower and Upper wards as a fighter. The way it works, it's pretty stupid not to... it gets you massively more hit points than any other option, and you get a THACO that you can keep in your other classes as well.

But should it work this way? You don't get to keep spellcasting or thief abilities as a fighter, so why should mages and thieves get to keep the single most important aspect of the fighter class?

I actually think the game would work a lot better this way, and that this is how it was meant to be, but they were stuck with engine limitations that (thanks to scient's engine uberness) we aren't. Think about it. Okay, so you don't get to be the kensai-mage anymore... but it would mean actually playing all 3 classes the way they're supposed to be played, rather than fighter, fighter-mage or fighter-thief. And you could play your preferred class right from the beginning of the game, rather than always always always doing fighter for the first 9-13 levels. And it would make the manual correct as far as hit point gain goes. And it would lower the absolute dependency of needing to travel with certain NPC's so that you can constantly change classes back and forth.

What do you all think? Please do read this thoroughly, think about it, and cast your vote.

In the meantime... I'm going to try and consult the Oracle (Chris Avellone) on this one, and see if we can get a definitive answer. Honestly, what the manual says is making me pretty sure that the hit point thing -would- be a Fix, not a tweak... and the more I think about it, the THACO thing seems to me like a fix as well.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 01:40 AM.

[scient]

Well, even tho it will be more work for me I'm going to go with yes on both counts. The hitpoints I'm guessing should be pretty easy to sort (if it's agreed upon) and I already know where level up code is from morale system (Dak's sword).

The THAC0 system is kinda confusing atm. The "to hit" value for proficiencies (from WSPECIAL) does indeed get parsed into the game but whether or not it's actually being used is something I'm still looking into.

...(thanks to scient's engine uberness)...

[Qwinn]

As an addendum to the "Correct THACO for TNO's class" fix:

This would be applied to base number of attacks as well.

If you specialize as a fighter, however, and thus gain 4 or 5 proficiencies in a weapon, that bonus will still apply regardless of the class you're in. Consider it a special perk of fighter specialization that you never totally forget how to be particularly effective with the weapon you've gained True Grandmastery in. That said, considering you don't get to keep the THACO, or need the hit points, of a fighter when you're playing with other classes anymore, I don't think it would any longer be an efficient allocation of resources to specialize as a fighter just to get the five proficiencies and extra attack per round unless you plan on playing as a fighter.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 12:52 AM.

[Kulyok]

Both are consistent as is. (Not that it's the point, but it works this way in Baldur's Gate 2, as well). Neo TNO knows kung fu. He stops training six hours a day and starts learning quantum physics, but his body still remember how to kick ass. His THAC0 remains the same.

But when TNO spends a year learning quantum physics, and it's time to start postdoc studies, he doesn't gain lots of health, like he used to in his kung fu days. No, he only gains some health - much like his geek friends from MIT.


Bottom line: I think it's a nice tweak - as long as it's optional.

[Qwinn]

It sounds to me like you're comparing to dual-classing rules, which I don't think carries over to TNO's situation as well. TNO doesn't lose all his abilities from his lower level classes until they exceed his highest class either, so it's just not the same. He's a special case, as the manual says.

I do think I need to start considering the two fixes separately though. The Consistent HP thing is almost definitely going in, and not optional, because that is actually in the manual. Here's what it says:

When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he'll start to accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level.

I don't think there can be a greater indication that something in the game was not intended. Besides, it's very easy to see -why- this bug would've come about. Everything points to it being a bug, and nothing points to it -not- being one, so.

But. The THACO issue may be another matter, and what's making me think that is the damn number of attacks issue. After some testing, I've determined that the number of attacks you get is -always- based strictly on your fighter level, no matter what. (Never mind attacks from proficiencies with regards to this discussion for now). If you're a level 6 fighter, you can go to level 20 as a mage and you still get only one base attack per round. Same with thief. But if you go to level 13 as a fighter, and then you switch to level 5 thief, you still have 2 attacks per round.

This makes what we'd do as far as the fix problematic. In keeping with the -spirit- of what I'm proposing here, you should only get those base bonus attacks when you are actually a fighter, though you would still get the benefit from weapon proficiencies. But, this is logistically difficult to pull off, because there's only one table (WSPATCK.2DA) for determining number of attacks, and it includes both a level check (based on strictly your fighter level, regardless of what class you're in) and the weapon proficiencies check. There isn't a provision for an alternate table for mages and thieves that would say "One base attack per round regardless of your level, plus your bonus from proficiencies." So it would be either "You can't get bonus attacks regardless of your class, even from proficiencies", or leaving it the way it is, without a pretty big rewrite of the engine code that I don't particularly want.

Now, the fact that number of attacks is done that way may very well be purely a mechanical limitation based on the engine, for the reasons described - no other IE game needed anything like this kind of functionality. No matter what they -wanted- to do, they were pretty much stuck with one of the two options just described, and decided that fighter level always determining number of attacks was the better of the two options, otherwise weapon proficiencies for mage and thief would be pretty much pointless.

But, it becomes debatable at that point that maybe they -wanted- it to be that way, and if you can "remember" how to do multiple attacks per round in other classes, why couldn't you remember how to hit (i.e. your THACO) too? Bleah. Bleah bleah bleah.

How do number of attacks work in BG1/BG2 again? If I remember correctly, the issue never really comes up, because you can't have enough proficiencies in a weapon to get any bonus attacks per round in anything but a fighter class (or that thief kit, swashbuckler, I think). But I'm pretty sure thief/mage number of attacks never actually increase based on level. Is this the case?

At any rate, the THACO/# of attacks part of this needs some more thought, and won't be going into this release. The Consistent HP thing may very well do so, though. I find the manual's state of intent of how it was supposed to work to be pretty overriding of any other arguments in that respect.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 04:37 AM.

[Qwinn]

I looked up the swashbuckler thing.

- May specialize in any weapon that a thief can use (but does not
receive the extra 1/2 attack per round)

So that's a non issue. It does appear to me, then, that in BG1 and BG2 there is no case where a non-fighter class would get an extra attack per round from -either- level or proficiencies, so the functionality to do what I'm proposing TNO should have would never have been implemented in the engine. In other words - only fighter characters would ever consult WSPATCK.2DA, and thus the engine limitation completely explains why it's working the way it does. Would this be correct?

(In fact, I'm betting that's -why- the swashbuckler kit has that "does not receive extra attack" qualifier... they probably wanted to, but they had no way with the engine to give them the proficiency bonus without also giving them the extra attacks at 7 and 13).

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 05:07 AM.

[Qwinn]

Does it mean we'll be getting 1-10hp for every class, even if we've already reached that lvl with another class? Might become a tiny bit unbalanced, if thats the case... We'll be getting an extra 25d10 hp ?! Or am I misinterpreting something?

No - the manual does say -once you reach a higher level- than you've reached with any other class, you get a full hit die. Here's the full paragraph from which I gleaned that quote:

The Nameless One only gains hit points when he gains a level in a class that's higher than the maximum level he's achieved in any of his other classes. For example, he starts off as a level three fighter and a level one mage and thief. When he gains enough experience to become a second level mage, he won't get any more hit points because his mage level (two) is still lower or equal to his fighter level (three). When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he'll start to accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level.)

If due to engine limitation, only fighters got bonus THAC0 and attacks, then I see why they made Dak'kon and Annah multi-class fighters.

Well, each class can progress with their own THACO table, but yeah, a higher number of attacks requires being a fighter. So yep, I thought the same thing.

Here's another indication that it's the engine limitation governing all this: Fall From Grace never gets more than 1 proficiency in Fists, no matter how high she levels. This would be necessary because to give her a second proficiency, she'd have to consult the WSPATCK table, and therefore she'd also have to get more attacks per round at 7 and 13. I'm betting Ignus, as the only other non-fighter NPC, is the same way... will check on that.

What it boils down to is, the engine design says you can't give a character bonus attacks from proficiencies without also giving them a fighter's bonus attacks. That explains completely why number of attacks for TNO works the way it does.

Do I have a similar argument for THACO? No, not really. It could've been done without much hassle, since the "SetNamelessClass" function pretty much had to be created from scratch for this game and it could've all been done there. My thinking in support of that as a fix is based on the fact that it's inconsistent that the -premiere- fighter abilities carry over to the other two classes, when nothing else carries over in the other direction.

Kulyok, as to this argument:

Both are consistent as is. (Not that it's the point, but it works this way in Baldur's Gate 2, as well). Neo TNO knows kung fu. He stops training six hours a day and starts learning quantum physics, but his body still remember how to kick ass. His THAC0 remains the same.

But when TNO spends a year learning quantum physics, and it's time to start postdoc studies, he doesn't gain lots of health, like he used to in his kung fu days. No, he only gains some health - much like his geek friends from MIT.

Then why doesn't fighter TNO remember how to backstab, or stealth? I can see the "quantum physics" argument explaining being unable to maintain spellcasting, but not why you would forget how to hide or stab someone from behind. That seems no more complex to me than the skill that needs to go into a very high THACO.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 05:41 AM.

[Qwinn]

At any rate, one thing is for sure - if we do implement this, then it's just going to be THACO... due to the engine limitation just discussed, there's no way of getting around TNO's number of attacks being dependent only upon his fighter level, at least not without seriously nerfing weapon proficiencies in his mage and thief class, which I have no desire to do. As far as I can tell, their desire to make weapon proficiencies applicable and beneficial regardless of what class TNO is in is what drove them to do things the way they did when faced with the engine limitations under discussion.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 05:35 AM.

[Qwinn]

What about levels after 10? Is he getting the hp for a fighter whatever his class, or is he getting 1 for mage; 2 for thief; 4 for fighter?

The only logical way to implement this would be that, after first reaching each level beyond 10, he'd gain 3 (not 4) hit points per level, as a fighter would. That could be changed to a lower number, but to do so would require it be changed for all fighters as well - not an option.

What about additional classes? If I remember correctly, he got 1hp if he already reached that class, but he got 1 hp even if he level-upped several levels at the same time. Should he be getting any hp for a class he already reached?

Hrm, I see what you're saying. The manual quote in question does explicitly say you don't gain -any- hit points under that circumstance. That is indeed a pretty good reason. Let me consider it. My spidey-sense is telling me that that was due to an engine limitation as well, though perhaps one more easily resolvable.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Yup, confirmed. As predicted, both of the non-fighter PC's - Ignus and Fall from Grace - never get additional weapon proficiencies. This was done intentionally, I submit, because it is impossible to give a non-fighter class extra attacks per round from proficiencies without also giving them the extra attacks per round of a fighter.

I've racked my brain and still can't think of a way to get around it, without asking scient to get pretty ugly and coming up with a distinct WSPATCK.2DA for mages and thieves, so that TNO can still gain the benefits of proficiencies without getting the fighter's extra attacks unless he's a fighter. But bleah. I don't think I'd be willing to go that far unless Chris Avellone or another original designer stepped in and said "If we could've done it that way, we would've."

The THACO thing is still a possibility for later versions, but not for the upcoming one. It still needs more thought as well.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 07:18 AM.

[BLAH]

Turns out, I'm unable to sign in with the same username I used as a guest. Who would have known?

I'm for the proposed changes. The manual states the developers' intent quite clearly. It's too bad the bonus attacks per turn can't be easily changed. But everything else should go as a FIX.

There's something (that may be related, more likely - not) that has always bugged me: How does weapon speed fit in all this? What does it affect, if anything?

edit: So we can't get THAC0 fix, either. That's fine too, but this doesn't fix the kensai-mage issue.

Edited by BLAH, 14 December 2008 - 06:41 AM.

[Qwinn]

edit: So we can't get THAC0 fix, either. That's fine too, but this doesn't fix the kensai-mage issue.

Oh, didn't say that. We still may, just very very unlikely for this release (eh, I did say "not possible", didn't I? Well, call it 0.001%). Very likely it'll go in at least as a Tweak for later versions. I think it's a big enough change that it does deserve a little more thought, and I'd also prefer to give the game developers a chance to chime in on it, assuming I can manage to get their attention to this thread. Hey, if by some miracle they chime in with approval (i.e. "Yes, that's what we wanted, just couldn't get the damn engine to do it") by tonight, and additionally scient said he had the time to do it, then yeah, I'd be willing to put release off for as much as a week or so to get it in and test it.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 07:18 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, I think I just found a pretty damn good argument for why the THACO thing as it works in game is broken and was very likely -not- intended.

This does contain light spoilers, btw.

Let's say you like playing a mage. You drop fighter class as early as possible, and you go full mage for most of the game. You are now a level 4 fighter, level 15 mage, and because of that you have a THACO of 16.

Now you find yourself in Curst, and you've just met Vhailor. There's a conversation path with Vhailor that you need to be a fighter to have, and if you are a modestly lawful character, you get a whopping 150,000 xp directly and only to TNO, not including the wisdom bonus. With a high wisdom, it's more like 200,000. This immediately gets you to level 8 fighter, and all of a sudden, based on ONE conversation with one NPC, your THACO as a mage just improved by -3-. If you just stick as a fighter for the remainder of your conversations with Vhailor, you can easily get another 150,000 xp, putting you at level 9, most of the way to 10. Now your THACO is 12. Kill like 3 things in the next zone, and you're at level 10. Hello THACO 11.

So even if you are -only- having the conversations in game that -require- you to be a fighter, you're pretty much guaranteed to improve to at least a 13 THACO. Another 2 minutes necessary to improve your mage's THACO from 16 to a very respectable 11. And with most of that xp only available to TNO as a fighter, you only need to "sacrifice" about 100k-150 xp... barely a third of one mage level at that point... to improve your mage's THACO by 5. That's the easiest kensai-mage build -I- ever saw.

Can anyone really argue that makes sense or that it was likely intended? Even if you don't make fighter your first 9 levels, you can still get enough xp in the later stages of the game to give yourself a very solid THACO in whatever your class is in about 5 minutes. That screams to me to be exploiting a bug. To be able to get the vast bulk of the benefits of an entire class with less than 5 minutes effort is very much broken class balance.

I dunno, even if you were to forget all of that, and I don't see how you can, I think it's kinda hard to argue that the -only- intended penalty for dropping the "way of the warrior" is that you can't use hammers or axes anymore, which is completely unimportant because all the best weapons can come in dagger form - would've made sense to any game designer, and particularly those as talented as the ones we're dealing with here.

(Add to that that without my Class/Armor Balance tweak, your potential AC as a mage with just equipment is about 5 better than what you can get as a fighter, and you've made kensai-mage -drastically- better than any other path in game. Even if you never cast a single spell, you're still more effective in combat as a kensai-mage than a fighter. That's ridiculous.)

With the proposed fix as it stands now, that single conversation with Vhailor would still get you +3 strength and an extra half attack per round. That's -enough- for a single chat, isn't it?

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 08:25 AM.

[Qwinn]

This falls apart because the underlying fault, in your example, lies with the way the XP for next level works, not the way THAC0 for TNO works. Required XP increases exponentionally up to lvl 10. Take the same example with a Mage 13/Fighter 10, and the effects are much less dramatic.

But that's what I'm saying. This is only a problem -because- of the THAC0 issue. When the classes are actually distinct from each other, the exponential xp gain is not a problem.

The superiority of a Fighter/Mage is the result of other things as well, both which you mentioned already: Better AC as a Mage and lack of good Fighter-only weapons. I wholeheartidly agree with those two.

Again - the better AC as a mage is only a class balance problem because of the THACO issue. If a fighter is just a fighter with really good THACO, and when a mage is just a mage with really good AC, there isn't a class balance issue - in fact, that would explain WHY they gave so many nice AC items to the mage, to help balance them with fighters, since magic is actually rather weaker in PS:T than it is in BG1/BG2. I submit that once again, it's the THACO issue causing the imbalance. The problem is (as you pointed out over at Gamebanshee when you can stick the numbers into a formula that pops out - "13 fighter/X thief/22 mage" is by far the supreme character build, that the AC imbalance actually results in a class balance problem.

As for no fighter-only weapons, well, the fact that Celestial Fire can come in any shape makes it unlikely that the intent was to have fighter-only weapons determine combat capabilities, no?

See, we're both sorta arguing for the same thing here - inertia. In the absence of a good reason to do so, don't mess with things. I do think the manual's explicit description of how HP is supposed to work is a good reason to believe the HP system in game is broken, and the fact that IMHO it improves class balance seals the deal. And I think the class balance reason is a good idea to fix THACO.

And you and I are both agreeing that class balance is messed up. The reasons so far are:

1) Exponential xp gain at higher levels making it silly-easy to raise fighter to high levels in 5 minutes, resulting in high THACO for any class.
2) Mage AC much better than Fighter or Thief AC, making fighting as a mage with fighter THACO preferable to any other option.
3) No fighter-only weapons, which is the only thing that could make a fighter as it stands better in combat than a kensai mage

So to fix class balance -your- way, to make a pure fighter better than a kensai mage in combat, I have to:

1) Redo all the experience tables.
2) Use my class-armor balance tweak to make fighter AC as good as mage AC
3) Create a bunch of fighter weapons superior to the dagger version of Celestial Fire.

My fix to class balance is to ask scient to change about 3 bytes in the game engine, which eliminates all the other class balance problems, because:

1) Exponential xp gain in lower level classes doesn't matter if their abilities don't transfer to your main class.
2) Better AC for mages now -helps- class balance, rather than making kensai-mages a no brainer.
3) A fighter is now -naturally- a much better fighter in combat than a mage, and doesn't need better weapons to make him so.

Which of these serves the "Change as little as possible, the game designers must've done it that way for a reason" argument that you gave me over on Gamebashee? Cause either they did the THACO-transfers-to-mages-and-thieves thing for a reason and they did exponential xp tables, better AC for mages and no superior fighter weapons for no good reason, or the three bytes in the engine for the THACO thing are wrong, and everything else was done for a good reason based on the design premise that those 3 bytes in the engine weren't messed up and fighter THACO didn't transfer to mages?

So I'm kinda seeing your arguments as strengthening my point, rather than weakening it, I'm afraid

The nicest thing about the current THAC0, is that even as a mage, you can still fight a bit and aren't forced to waste spells on trivial encounters, especially important if you still have a small party.

Frankly, the way it is, you never need to use spells as a kensai mage. In the umpteen times I've played this game, I've only ever cast spells as a novelty, never because I needed to, with my mage character. I think with this change you still wouldn't need to use spells in trivial battles, but you would finally need to use them in tough ones, as it should be.

Barring all that, I'm with Kuyon (sp?) on this: Make it optional. Don't force people who want an improved PS:T to play the game as you think you should. smile.gif

I really don't think I'm basing this on me thinking other people should play the game the way I like to. I'm basing this with the eye of a designer and the tools of a modder, and looking at how to achieve the largest positive effect of fixing problems with the game with the smallest change. The list of class balance issues that you've agreed exist are all resolved with this very simple tweak.

And then there's the simple, plain fact that no other class's abilities transfer between one another. Not a single ability of a mage can be used by a fighter or thief. Not a single ability of a thief can be used by a fighter or mage. But everyone gets -all- fighter abilities all the time. Why the inconsistency?

Combine that inconsistency with the fact that it creates all the other problems we've listed, and I think this amounts to a pretty strong argument that this is a -fix-, rather than a tweak. But feel free to hit me with a counterargument, I -am- enjoying the conversation and yes, a good enough counterargument -can- change my mind *fingers crossed behind back, evil snicker*

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 09:32 AM.

[Qwinn]

As for "making it voluntary", hrm. Well, the way I'm strongly leaning right now, the THACO thing will be a fix. Because I really do think it's broken.

And then I'd provide a tweak in my tweak pack that would allow you to undo it. And I'd name it something really obnoxious like The "WTF dont nerf mai kensai mage d00d!" Tweak.

*snicker*

Seriously, I think that's what I'm going to do if I'm not convinced during the planning stages that it isn't really a fix. I don't intend to offend by it at all, I'm not calling you a d00d, but you gotta admit that it's biggest appeal -would- be to that crowd, and the name would be kinda funny. And I would be giving you what you're asking for, so you can't hate me too much for it... can you?

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 09:25 AM.

[Daulmakan]

Sorry, I got lost regarding the hit point issue. What's your current stance on that?

BTW, the way the vanilla game works is that it gives you 1d10 every time you level up and an extra 1 everytime you get a 'repeated' level, so to speak, right?

[Qwinn]

BTW, the way the vanilla game works is that it gives you 1d10 every time you level up and an extra 1 everytime you get a 'repeated' level, so to speak, right?

No. The manual says you should always get 1d10, but it doesn't work that way - if you reach a new level with TNO as a mage, you only get 1d4, and if you get a new level as a thief, you get 1d6. You only get 1d10 if you reach a level first as a fighter. I would make it always 1d10 as the manual says.

You do get 1 hp whenever doing a "repeated" level (and in fact if you were to gain 4 repeated levels in one shot, you still get only 1hp), but the manual actually says you shouldn't get any, and I'd like to see that corrected as well.

I do consider both of those to be fixes, not a tweak. Something that severely harms game balance, so that it's virtually required to spend roughly the first 75% of the game as a fighter, and that is directly contradicted by the designer's stated intent in the game manual... well, honestly, if that doesn't count as sufficient support to consider something a fix, what possibly could?

I'm still entertaining arguments on the THACO thing, but no one's given me anything like a sufficient reason against this one to counter all the reasons for it yet, IMHO. Sorry to those who've tried.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 10:43 AM.