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Dragon Charmed AND Backstabbed!!!


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#21 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 12:10 AM

i verified (ni)
dragred.cre have a ring: ring97.itm but among immunity to effect 101 there is no protection against opcode 235 ( wing buffet )...
same thing for
dragredd.cre
dragshad.cre
dragsilv.cre
dragyel.cre
dragpurp.cre

* dragon chromatic is a red dragon

( maybe i forgot somethings...)

Edited by Ferrumach, 29 September 2004 - 12:13 AM.


#22 Stone Wolf

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 12:36 AM

That's strange. They don't seem to have dragring on them. Maybe you could just stick them on and see how it goes?

#23 seanas

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 12:57 AM

wahey! looks like i was reading the .itm files incorrectly: nice find, Ferrumach.

i don't think RING97 needs protection from wing buffet [235], though: all that wing buffet actually does is push a character around the screen - and i've not seen or heard of that happening to a dragon after using their breath weapon. what they need is protection from unconsciousness [39].

although i wouldn't have thought they even need that. the 'wing buffet' spell (SPIN695) does four things (well five, if you include playing a sound-effect): the actual wing buffet, a HP damage effect, a State: Unconsciousness effect and a zone of sweet air effect . all three of the damaging effects are targeted to 'Pre-Target', which should mean that the caster (ie, the dragon) is not effected. i've seen dragons fall unconscious before too, i have to admit, but i'm usually grateful at that point, because that means they're not killing my party members.

as a general rule, i guess it would be handy for dragons to be immune to unconsciousness, regardless of what causes it, so unless anyone disagrees, i'll add it to the list of things to be fixed in v2 of the s_and_h patch.

@Stone Wolf: no, most of the dragons don't wear dragring. they wear variants of ring97: ring97y has almost as many immunities as dragring; ring97 has only 6 immunities. as far as i know, this is because not all dragons have the same powers in PnP, and one of the things BP does is give creatures powers more akin to their PnP incarnations, even if it means (in some instances) making them easier.

Edited by seanas, 29 September 2004 - 01:04 AM.

"A simple test of the relative merits of science and religion is to compare lighting your house at night by prayer or electricity" - A. C. Grayling
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#24 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 01:13 AM

-All these quoted dragon.cre
have this ring who brings only 6 immunities:
hold creature (109)
slow (40)
Entangle overlay (154)
web effect overlay (157)
grease effect overlay (158 )
level drain (216 )

but i am a newbie with NI... :D
-The others have another ring more interesting: dragring.itm who brings with the 6 first immunities: immune to charm, backstab, stun, confusion, sleep, silence etc.....and wing buffet

Edited by Ferrumach, 29 September 2004 - 01:32 AM.


#25 Stone Wolf

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 01:14 AM

I didn't examine every effect on Dragring, I just figured it granted standard dragon resists and immunities. I noticed that it's on the Ritual Dragon, and at least one other creature.

#26 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 01:27 AM

why not to give to all the dragons the dragrim.itm...( because no immunize to charm and backstabb it isn't very credible )
but maybe that disturbs some gamers.

.

Edited by Ferrumach, 29 September 2004 - 01:29 AM.


#27 seanas

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 01:35 AM

we could, but the idea was that some dragons in PnP are more powerful than others, so the same should be true in BGII. i don't want to go around putting dragrings on everything, because that defeats the purpose of BP, which was - in part - to be more true to a PnP game. we may as well make improved battles compatible if we want that level of cheese :P .

but giving specific immunities (to spells which shouldn't actually effect them, which is the bit that i don't understand) to the effects of their own attacks seems reasonable. i've updated the list of forthcoming fixes in v2 accordingly.

"A simple test of the relative merits of science and religion is to compare lighting your house at night by prayer or electricity" - A. C. Grayling
"EFF files have saves, too." - CamDawg
|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||


#28 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 02:50 AM

the 'wing buffet' spell (SPIN695) does four things (well five, if you include playing a sound-effect): the actual wing buffet, a HP damage effect, a State: Unconsciousness effect and a zone of sweet air effect . all three of the damaging effects are targeted to 'Pre-Target', which should mean that the caster (ie, the dragon) is not effected.

-OK and i agree with:

all that wing buffet actually does is push a character around the screen - and i've not seen or heard of that happening to a dragon after using their breath weapon


-But Radagast indicates that the dragon takes damage too... Thus why not to simplify with protection opcode (235) instead of only unconsciouness ( 39 ) and i think somepeople have the same problem...( unconsciouness + damage )
( thats explains why dragring.itm give this protection )

we could, but the idea was that some dragons in PnP are more powerful than others, so the same should be true in BGII. i don't want to go around putting dragrings on everything,

-the most powerful dragon in BP-soa is adalon ( a dragon with only the ring RING97.... ) because it has i think a very good script ( very agressive)

we may as well make improved battles compatible if we want that level of cheese

-yes battles is a very good mod...

to a PnP game

what does it mean ?: what is a PnP game ?

Edited by Ferrumach, 29 September 2004 - 03:13 AM.


#29 Radagast-The-Brown

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:02 AM

hmm lets see...as i said i have the dragon immunities problem to ALL TDD dragons including topaz and the 3 dragons (including dracolich) in the underdark area of TDD. The only problem with the SoA dragons (perhaps its the same as in ToB Dragons) is that they r not completely immune to their wing buffets...they take dmg...the unconsciousness problem as well as the backstab-blind-charm problem happened to me ONLY in the TDD dragons...

What I think would be "Right" even in PnP dnd is that all dragons should be

Immune to :
1.Web, entangle, hold, slow etc.
2.Level Drain (not necessarily)
3.Unconcsiousness, blind, stun, ALL mind affecting.
(Affecting a dragons mind is ridiculous)
4.Their powers.
5.Poison (No poison is powerful enough to penetrate such a large body)
6.Backstab, Sleep, Silence.
7.Critical Hits (This is VERY logical considering the difference in size)
8.Illusion School of Magic (You can't fool dragon's senses)(oops i forgot this)
(Fill me in if i forgot something)

For me these are standard dragon immunities and as a DM I do use them in ADnD all these years...I know many other DMS who agree to this...


My Installation : (In order I did it)
(And thats the last time I post it - Won't change for long)

BP latest Fixpack
Reign Of Virtue
Ease Of Use (Right components)
Item Upgrade
Cespenar Audio
Redemption
Oversight (No Kits-NO Improved Sendai)
Improved Oasis II (Updates Tactics also)
Planar Sphere Return
Robe of Vecna Fix
JPS Portraits/NPC Beauty
Ajocs Minimod
Solafein NPC
Valen NPC

PS1 : the Kagain-Yeslick problem in dialogues STILL persist...the fix did nothing...
PS2 : The Dracolich should have ALL dragon AND lich immunities...

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 29 September 2004 - 08:37 AM.

Ignorance Is Bliss

#30 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:13 AM

Seanas i would want to tell you that fights in BP, globally, are very easy and *please* don't speak about cheating or not because it is forced ( xp) to have easy fights. The advice in my topic ( coipper coronet) is to build two groups of 6 and at the end of tob in the final auto save the 12 will have approximately 4.500.000 xp... ( except you : 8.800.000xp ) it is just an example to show you that the mod is not REALLY improved battles or tactics installed only with soa...
Thank you

Edited by Ferrumach, 29 September 2004 - 03:22 AM.


#31 Radagast-The-Brown

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:21 AM

Seanas i would want to tell you that fights in BP, globally, are very easy and *please* don't speak about cheating or not because it is forced ( xp) to have easy fights. The advice in my topic ( coipper coronet) is to build two groups of 6 and at the end of tob in the final auto save the 12 will have approximately 5.200.000 xp... ( except you : 8.800.000xp ) it is just an example to show you that the mod is not REALLY improved battles or tactics installed only with soa...
Thank you

I agree on that one and i know that there's few things we can do, but at least we should make some creatures (like dragons or liches) earn their respect that they deserve...so much xp makes almost anything easy...

Btw is it logical that the 3 dragons in the underdark TDD area give 250k xp each?? Isn't it an awful lot??? Keep in mind that the silver dragon (which was much harder for me to kill than any dragon in the game so far) gave ONLY 27.000 xp!!!
This means that the dracolich or the gold or bronze dragon is 10 times harder than the silver one!!!While the opposite happens!


Question to whoever knows : Is Tactics compatible with Improved Battles?

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 29 September 2004 - 03:23 AM.

Ignorance Is Bliss

#32 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:34 AM

Radagast i have corrected ( 4.500.000 xp for a team of 12 :lol: ) and i totally agree with tdd dragons ( 300.000 xp and kuroisan ...13.000xp( approximately) :ph34r: )
i don't want even to compare them with Adalon.

but i understand what seanas pm to psykotic about xp....

#33 seanas

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 05:03 AM

@Ferrumach. my apologies: PnP = a 'pen and paper' game. ie, one that follows the rules as described in one of the Ad&D rulebooks. i'm not quite sure which version Horred used: probably 2nd edition rules, maybe 1st edition (if we're lucky! :P )

re: XP. playing BP involves getting enormous amounts of XP. most XP rewards have been reduced, but shit, BP is two or three times the size of vanilla BGII: you're going to come out of a BP with a *lot* more XP - that's why you can go up to level 50 in BP.

re: the dracolich. if someone can send me the original dracolich from TDD, i'll make sure the one in BP has the same abilities and immunities.

PS1 : the Kagain-Yeslick problem in dialogues STILL persist...the fix did nothing...

oh yes it did. if you didn't start a new game after patching, you won't see the effects of the patch, however: if you've entered teh area the NPCs are in, then their stats are stored in your saved game, and no patch is going to have any effect.

re: Radagast's install. Oversight and Solaufein change .ids files; although i've never installed it, i'd be willing to bet that Valen does as well. the ACTION.IDS and TRIGGER.IDS that Sola installs are the same as those in BP; the SPELL.IDS is quite different. Oversight installs an older version of STATS.IDS as part of the Improved Sendai. I'd reckon that Valen would install both SPELL.IDS and STATS.IDS as well (so uninstalling Improved Sendai wouldn't necessarily help if Valen was installed first and vice versa).

re: ease of combats: not much i can say to this Ferrumach. most people who complain about the combat in BP say it's too hard. if you are playing on hardest difficulty *and* finding it too easy, then, err, you're a lot better BII player than i am. if you do find it too easy, you could adapt the scripts in improved battles to be used with BP. i don't think it would be too tricky (i could be wrong): load up the scripts using DLTCEP, press 'check script', and correct the errors it generates. when you're done, you should have BP-compatible improved battles scripts.

Edited by seanas, 29 September 2004 - 05:55 AM.

"A simple test of the relative merits of science and religion is to compare lighting your house at night by prayer or electricity" - A. C. Grayling
"EFF files have saves, too." - CamDawg
|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||


#34 Radagast-The-Brown

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 06:38 AM

re: the dracolich. if someone can send me the original dracolich from TDD, i'll make sure the one in BP has the same abilities and immunities.

re: Radagast's install. Oversight and Solaufein change .ids files; although i've never installed it, i'd be willing to bet that Valen does as well. the ACTION.IDS and TRIGGER.IDS that Sola installs are the same as those in BP; the SPELL.IDS is quite different. Oversight installs an older version of STATS.IDS as part of the Improved Sendai. I'd reckon that Valen would install both SPELL.IDS and STATS.IDS as well (so uninstalling Improved Sendai wouldn't necessarily help if Valen was installed first and vice versa).

dracolich...the problem is not only in the dracolich but in all dragons...all dragons have immunity problems...

re: my install :
I DIDNT INSTALL THE IMPROVED SENDAI
After uninstalling it some days ago I did a FRESH install...so no sendai leftovers anyway...

Oversight changes indeed stats.ids anyway...should I uninstall it or what?

Solafein - what do u suggest for the spell.ids?

Valen - valen uses indeed some ids files BUT i cant see any of them in the backup folder...only in an IDS folder there r some ids files :
action.ids, spell.ids, trigger.ids, shoutids.ids.

re: kagain&yeslick:
Sorry about that one..I didnt know it needed a new game...glad this was the case :)

Whats your point? that these mods r not compatible?or must i overwrite some files or so?

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 29 September 2004 - 08:44 AM.

Ignorance Is Bliss

#35 Psykotik

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 07:55 AM

what does it mean ?: what is a PnP game ?

Pen and Paper ;)

EDIT : errr... already answered. :ph34r:

Edited by Psykotik, 29 September 2004 - 09:20 AM.


#36 Ferrumach

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 09:13 AM

Sorry seanas i didn't want to impose anything...you and Hlid make a great work to improve BP :) but i don't like when you say:

we may as well make improved battles compatible if we want that level of cheese

where is the cheese ? :)
-I am a player and i indicate simply the problem i have had during my game :)
-however I agree to respect this mod and to make something different that tactics and battles. By the way at the copper coronet some people don't like these two mods ( ridiculously difficult etc..., but i repeat no comparison possible with the XP)

re: my install :
I DIDNT INSTALL THE IMPROVED SENDAI

-I am the guilty IT IS NOT radagast :lol: and "no problem" ;) surely cause i have installed it in tob. But in the list of compatibilities ( except the kit )this mod is indicated 100% compatible. In fact i had one problem ( see my topic and seanas' explanations )

re: the dracolich. if someone can send me the original dracolich from TDD, i'll make sure the one in BP has the same abilities and immunities.

-I have only TDD with BP, you just want the *.cre to compare and adjust ?
-someone to send him the file ?

Edited by Ferrumach, 29 September 2004 - 09:27 AM.


#37 Radagast-The-Brown

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 11:13 AM

I agree that with all this enormous xp nothing is difficult anymore...
At least the battles with the parties should be spiced up so I think improved battles has indeed a good shot if it becomes compatible with bp...just a thought...
Ignorance Is Bliss

#38 Ferrumach

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:32 AM

To answer exactly at the first post of this topic:
I verified all the versions of ring97..(x,y,z...) it doesn't bring any protections against backstab, stun, charm and wing buffet. ( and especially TDD dragons wear this ring )

Edited by Ferrumach, 30 September 2004 - 08:42 AM.


#39 Radagast-The-Brown

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:45 AM

To answer exactly at the first post of this topic:
I verified all the versions of ring97..(x,y,z...) it doesn't bring any protections against backstab, stun, charm and wing buffet. ( and especially TDD dragons wear this ring )

That REALLY sucks...something must be done with these dragon-wimps...
Ignorance Is Bliss

#40 Stone Wolf

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 12:57 PM

Yeah, you could add Dragring.itm to them! I'm going to keep saying this as long as people keep complaining about dragons not having those immunities. ;)