64 replies to this topic

[seanas]

ok, i've made up a table of the various dragon rings, what they do and who wears what, and having done so i'm even less willing to change them than i was. still:

RING      #of effects      effects descriptions (immunities)            equipped by
RING97     6                     hold                                    DRAGYELL (Yellow Dragon)
                                  slow                                    DRAGSILV (Silver Dragon)
                                  entangle                                DRAGSHAD (Shadow Dragon)
                                  web                                     DRAGPURP (Purple Dragon)
                                  grease                                  DRAGRED (Red Dragon)
                                  level drain                             DRAGREDD (Red Dragon)
                                  SPPR704: nature's beauty

RING97x   11               as RING97 +                                   DRAGGOLD (Garlokantha)
                                  cloudkill
                                  firestorm
                                  AC +14, THAC0 +6
                                  backstab

RING97z    14               as RING97x +                                 DRAGBROW (Arrellaxerrontoal)
                                  elec resist 100
                                  fire resist 10
                                  instant death

RING 97y   23              as RING97x +                                  DRAGGREN (Linussaxanol)
                                  instant death
                                  glow and graphics mod
                                  Protection from Spells, lvl 1-6
                                  Pro Normal Weapons
                                  Morale Failure
                                  Horror

DRAGRING  28               as RING97 +                                    DRAG (Nizidramanii'yt)
                                   Pro Projectiles: arrows, axes,          DRAGLAC (Nizidramanii'yt)
                                                    bolts, bullets,        DRAGBLUE (Abazigal)
                                                    chromatic orb, darts   UDSILVER (Adalon)
                                   charm                                   FIRKRAAG
                                   confusion (mage and cleric)                
                                   stun and stun 90HP
                                   unconsciousness and uncon. 20HP
                                   backstab
                                   hold creature I and II
                                   wing buffet
                                   hold (repeated)
                                   SPMINDAT (hold graphic)
                                   SPCONFUS (confusion graphic)
                                   Silence
                                   SPIN723: dragon rain
RINGDUND    16               as RING97 +                                   DRAGUND (Icebraniken)
                                   cold resist  100
                                   magic resistance 100
                                   instant death 
                                   THAC0 +5
                                   graphics: blur
                                   SPWI910: imprisonment
                                   SPWI926: weird
                                   SPRB999: malygus' shatt. obelisk
                                   SPMI103: spirit rot
                                   SPWI928: energy drain

no ring listed:             DRAGTOPE (Tapanascar)

Edited by seanas, 30 September 2004 - 06:09 PM.

[Stone Wolf]

I still think the Wing Buffet effect should be in the immunities, simply because of the mass of the dragons.

[Sir BillyBob]

So can we break it out and say that a dragon with a name is older and therefore more immune to special attack? That way, the younger generic dragons can still be attacked by certain abilities, but not by all. After all, you are not wandering around town attacking ancient dragons everyday. The Topaz dragon should have a ring on it of some sort? What level should it fall into?

Edited by Sir BillyBob, 30 September 2004 - 05:07 PM.

[Ferrumach]

There is an error i think (little) the ring97x doesn't bring immunity to backstab ( 292) but immunity to bonus backstab (263) ( what is the difference betwen these 2 effects ) i think a big difference because radagast can backstab the gold dragon...
-The ring97 don't protect against stun as you indicate but slow ( or maybe i have a problem to read )
-I agree with saenas... however BP is not only TDD...and in my opininion add some immunities to the 3 tdd dragons is a good thing, because they have a name and there is a background about them ( more than tapanasacar for example, and a lots of dragons which are a surprise for the player )

Protection from Spells, lvl 1-6

yes it is very powerful with only TDD...but not with BP...
Psykotik, radagast, and me , hlid too ...i think seem agree to improve them basically and i don't think they became impossible to kill with only 3 or 4 immunities added. In addition it would be very strange to have powerful dragons injured and stunned by their own weapons.

( sorry to still start again this discussion )

Edited by Ferrumach, 30 September 2004 - 06:13 PM.

[seanas]

i'm with SirBB here: note that the generic dragons without names (with the exception of the shade dragon) have the lowest power ring; all of the names dragons, however, have rings similar to or better than (the dracolich!) DRAGRING. Tapanascar probably needs a ring too, but he's a tough battle as it is. Given the prossession of a proper name, i'd suggest RING97x or RINGDUND (Tap utilises large doses of ice storm).

WING_BUFFET *only* pushes the target across the room; the unconsciousness etc are separate effects. and seeing as no-one has actually reported seeing a dragon flung across an area after using their wing buffets, i don't think adding an immunity is going to achieve anything.

i can see a possible need for pro backstab on RING97; along with giving Tapanascar a ring of some sort, i would suggest these are the only necessary changes. everything else i'd like to leave to (already implemented) innate magic resistance and low saving throws.

[EDIT] Ferrumach is correct about the slow effect: table updated.

[EDIT AGAIN] ok. so immunity: unconsciousness is probably needed for those rings that don't have it. Ferrumach, I don't understand your critique of Ring97y: that thing is more powerful than the DRAGRING!

ring97x doesn't bring immunity to backstab ( 292) but immunity to bonus backstab (263) ( what is the difference betwen these 2 effects huh.gif ) i think a big difference because radagast can backstab the gold dragon...

that's a distinction without a difference. if you attack something from behind and only do normal damage then... you're not backstabbing. (292) *might* prevent any damage going through - which would make no sense to me; (263) *might* still display a message in the textbox about the dragon being backstabbed... for normal damage. changing from (263) to (292) is a purely aesthetic fix; if we're at the stage where we're considering aesthetic fixes, then i think we can safely declare BP 'bug-free'. it clearly isn't - or at least not quite - so i would rather spend my time fixing substantive problems, not aesthetic ones.

Edited by seanas, 30 September 2004 - 06:30 PM.

[Stone Wolf]

WING_BUFFET *only* pushes the target across the room; the unconsciousness etc are separate effects. and seeing as no-one has actually reported seeing a dragon flung across an area after using their wing buffets, i don't think adding an immunity is going to achieve anything.

i can see a possible need for pro backstab on RING97; along with giving Tapanascar a ring of some sort, i would suggest these are the only necessary changes. everything else i'd like to leave to (already implemented) innate magic resistance and low saving throws.

[EDIT] Ferrumach is correct about the slow effect: table updated.

[EDIT AGAIN] ok. so immunity: unconsciousness is probably needed for those rings that don't have it. Ferrumach, don't understand your critique of Ring97y: that thing is more powerful than the DRAGRING!

There doesn't seem to be a need to grant immunity to Wing Buffet right NOW, but I was thinking that if you're upgrading them, you could include all the immunities they should have (if you think they should have them, of course). That way, if someone were to, say, add a Wind Gust spell or something similar in a yet-unreleased mod, they wouldn't have to further modify the creature and risk creating bugs.

Err, not that anyone I know is going to do that.

[hlidskialf]

The difference between backstab and bonus backstab is more important than that. Protection from backstab (292) will prevent the actual backstab damage modifier from affecting the dragon. Protection from Bonus Backstab (263) will prevent a modifier to the dragon's own backstab ability. That is, HOW big the backstab modifier will be when the dragon sneaks up and knifes somebody. It needs to be fixed.

[Stone Wolf]

I dunno, I kinda like dragons not getting a bonus to backstab!

[Ferrumach]

Ok against a team of wizard this ring is very powerful but for a team of warrior this ring is very weak. and even a team of wizard can use powerful invocations to kill him without too much difficulties. I would want to add this dragon casts a lots of symbol... symbol of fear...etc...many spells, items worn by fighters protect against them....
On the other hand, the dragring is more adapted to all tactics. I think a powerful dragon in BP ( adalon ) is powerful because he is looking for the contact.
I understand a dracolich must be less agressive... ( half a lich) but then, this dragon needs absolutely best protections to support the contact of the fighters.


edit:

Seanas it was just a simple information..., i didn't want to annoy you with that.

Edited by Ferrumach, 30 September 2004 - 07:13 PM.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

now that i saw what ring is what...i came up with the following...
The dragring has most of the immunities that ALL dragons REALLY have in ad&d..i dont now if u knew but indeed all dragons are immune to all normal projectiles...(arrows, bolts, etc)..I like the protections from this ring that Abazigal wears MOST then anything....I really DO think that this ring should be worn by ALL dragons no exceptions here...
The wing buffet immunity is more useful then u think actually...yes the dragon won't push himself with the buffet but he STILL takes dmg from the buffet!! most of the dragons I fought (Adalon, Firkraag) had exactly that problem...they took dmg from wing buffet...! So immunity to their powers is more useful than u think...

And yes the dracolich has a great ring (immunity 1-6lvl spells) but still where r the standard immunities like lich and dragons would have? sure it has immune instan death but is it logical for the dracolich to fall unconscious? or be stunned??? or mind affected?? for god's sake its undead!!!It can even be backstabbed!! so i definitely think it deserves the dragring like noone else...

Conclusion: all dragons deserve : dragring and ring97...these r standard...else dragons die in seconds...at least in BP...(Adalon-Yellow exception)

(btw GREAT battle with the yellow dragon-REALLY cool-wish all dragons were so interesting)

PS : I forgot to say that dragons also deserve immunity to fear effects...

[Ferrumach]

Radagast, normally with seana's list adalon shouldn't be touched by the wing buffet:
the explanation is maybe theres is 2 *.cre about Adalon:( the two have the same portrait )
Dragsilv.cre ( ring97.itm )
Udsilver.cre ( dragring.itm )

Maybe the change is according to the difficulty mod? same reasoning with Firkraag

Edited by Ferrumach, 01 October 2004 - 01:55 AM.

[seanas]

apologies for my ill-tempered replies....

ok, so we need to add imunity to unconsciousness (39) to those rings that don't have it, and correct the immunity to backstab to be (292), and add it to those rings that don't have it.

and unless someone can correct me, WING_BUFFET doesn't do any damage, it just pushes sprites around the screen. all of the effects of the spell (SPIN695) have as a target 'pre-target', so it shouldn't damage the dragon, should it? SPIN695 uses as a projectile 'instant area effect' (94), but that doesn't AFAIK make it target the caster. i can always add a 'protection from spell (206): SPIN695' to guarantee they;re immune to their own wing buffets: in which case they wouldn't need immunity to unconsciousness (39).

and on a slight tangent: do i have to create new items and drop them in the override folder to make this work, or is there a way i could use a WRITE_BYTE to do it?

[EDIT] DRAGSILV and UDSILVER are two very different dragons: UDSILVER is Adalon; DRAGSILV is a random encounter that only appears in the random encounter areas, and then oly if you have a: more then 4 million XP; b: are in Chapter 5 or higher; c: have a reputation of 6 or less; d: are (un)lucky.

DRAGRED is also a random encounter, for parties with high reputations; DRAGREDD is the one that appears after you've killed Nizidramanii'yt; and i can find no matching references to DRAGPURP or DRAGYELL. the Yellow Dragon in the ritual is RITDRAG, who is wearing, amongst many other things, DRAGRING.

Edited by seanas, 01 October 2004 - 02:15 AM.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

and unless someone can correct me, WING_BUFFET doesn't do any damage, it just pushes sprites around the screen. all of the effects of the spell (SPIN695) have as a target 'pre-target', so it shouldn't damage the dragon, should it? SPIN695 uses as a projectile 'instant area effect' (94), but that doesn't AFAIK make it target the caster. i can always add a 'protection from spell (206): SPIN695' to guarantee they;re immune to their own wing buffets: in which case they wouldn't need immunity to unconsciousness (39).

The Yellow Dragon in the ritual is RITDRAG, who is wearing, amongst many other things, DRAGRING.

The wing buffets pushes away characters in its area effect and ALSO damages them dealing about 15 dmg each time...of course the dragon is never pushed away...but some dragons fall unconscious after failing their save AND the dragons in SoA manage to take dmg themselves..at least to me they did...the only way to see this is watch the console at all times...then u may see Adalon - dmg taken 15 or so...or something lik ethat anyway...I dont know maybe thats a bug that only "I" have but it sure happens to me...The yellow dragon was "indeed" great and the dragring was what "actually" helped so much in this.A "must" ring for all dragons...

Even with protection from buffets they still need immunity to unconcsiousness cause power attack , smite and some weapons also make someone fall unconcsious...

(sorry for being such a pushover in this...just saying the truth and my point of view)

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 01 October 2004 - 02:44 AM.

[Ferrumach]

-I have just tested frikrag and it doesn't seem to be affected by his own wing buffet...thus the dragring seems to function. ( but with only 3 wing buffet in the fight maybe it not significative ? )
-However i agree to add for all dragons:

i can always add a 'protection from spell (206): SPIN695' to guarantee they;re immune to their own wing buffets: in which case they wouldn't need immunity to unconsciousness (39).

and improve the 3 tdd dragons B)

[Sir BillyBob]

-I have just tested frikrag and it doesn't seem to be affected by his own wing buffet...thus the dragring seems to function. ( but with only 3 wing buffet in the fight maybe it not significative ? )
-However i agree to add for all dragons:

i can always add a 'protection from spell (206): SPIN695' to guarantee they;re immune to their own wing buffets: in which case they wouldn't need immunity to unconsciousness (39).

and improve the 3 tdd dragons B)

I am testing a modified version of the green dragon and it wasn't effected by the wing buffet either. No damage taken (I lost two people) but the dragon didn't take any damage related to the blast.

[Ferrumach]

I am testing a modified version of the green dragon

( you talk about Draconis or other ?)

Because i ve tested the dracolich ( DRAGGREN.CRE) and each wing buffet it falls unconscious during 1 or 2 seconds and take damage (10 - 15 points ) which is normal with the ring97y.

( with the hardest difficultie i have killed it with only 4 greater bearweres hasted + mass invisibility, 1 cremature, 1 deva and 3 or 4 orcs... ) and noone of my team fought.

Edited by Ferrumach, 01 October 2004 - 06:13 AM.

[Sir BillyBob]

I am testing a modified version of the green dragon

( you talk about Draconis or other ?)

Because i ve tested the dracolich ( DRAGGREN.CRE) and each wing buffet it falls unconscious during 1 or 2 seconds and take damage (10 - 15 points ) which is normal with the ring97y.

( with the hardest difficultie i have killed it with only 4 greater bearweres hasted + mass invisibility, 1 cremature, 1 deva and 3 or 4 orcs... ) and noone of my team fought.

It is a copy of the green dragon in TOB (don't remember its name). I stepped down the HP and XP since this is going into a BGT mod. Items it has are:

HELMNOAN
DRAGRING
SAREVIMM
DRAGGRE1

Hmm, not very many spells known. I guess cause the script forcespells everything anyway. Anyway, after several battles, I haven't seen it getting hit with a wing buffet (doesn't mean that it didn't happen!). I need some more testing anyway so I will watch the console closely.

[Ferrumach]

It is a copy of the green dragon in TOB

-it is draconis

HELMNOAN
DRAGRING
SAREVIMM
DRAGGRE1

Hmm, not very many spells known. I guess cause the script forcespells everything anyway. Anyway, after several battles, I haven't seen it getting hit with a wing buffet (doesn't mean that it didn't happen!). I need some more testing anyway so I will watch the console closely

.
-No, you are right it has the ring ( dragring.itm) which brings the wing buffet- immunity thus it is normal B)

[hlidskialf]

It is a copy of the green dragon in TOB

-it is draconis

Draconis was the brown dragon in TOB. The green dragon was the one Geased to guard the Abazigal's lair.

[Stone Wolf]

Hmm, I thought the green one was the one in Watcher's Keep. Which one was that?