22 replies to this topic

[Shiva]

Though you may think this imbalancing, but for V2, why not have shapeshifters change into greaterwerewolves all the time...


so, at lv 12, lesser werewolf x4

then lv 13, becomes greater werewolf x4

and the hla you guys and gals have set up, means you can do GW as many times as you like.



Seems kinda crazy that a werewolf has a greater and lesser form.....
this is more like a natural progression of power.







Point 2... this may have already have changed, or i might be thinking of IWD, but
Fighter magic user thieves only have one weapon slot?
Can't they have two....bow and staff then, etc.....
ignore this if I'm mad. :edwin:

[Littiz]

Similar arguments have been raised several times, for other abilities.
But you have to remind the widespread logic of the game: rarely abilities are improved, they're rather piled up for every character.
This is true for spells, kit abilities, everything.

I'm not very inclined to start changing similar things, especially for shapeshifters where I've spent much time finding a logic and a balance...
After all it seems plausible to me that increasing your power you become able to shapechange in the lesser form at will, but still have some limitations when attempting the greater form, which is a real juggernaut after all, as it is now.

Of course I'm open to opinions, though.

Edited by Littiz, 04 October 2004 - 11:09 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

And my opinion is that the current implementation is very well balanced. Allowing an all-time Greater Werewolf form for the shapeshifter would highly unbalance the kit.

[MythicalChicken]

I'm afraid to mention this ... heh heh ... recovering powergamer that I am.

The only Bioware script I use religiously is "paladin melee." For shits and giggles I turned Jaheira into a Shapeshifter and as usual made her my primary healer.

I assigned "paladin melee" for her script out of habit ... Imagine my surprise when the oversized dog started healing folks.

Bug or feature? Please tell me feature :-)

Best,
MythicalC

[Jinnai]

Similar arguments have been raised several times, for other abilities.
But you have to remind the widespread logic of the game: rarely abilities are improved, they're rather piled up for every character.
This is true for spells, kit abilities, everything.

But perhaps it should be, atleast moreso.

Still it shouldn't be done without making sure it doesn't woefully unbalance stuff, perhaps then it would have to be part of more general rework, if at all.

[Ieldra]

Still it shouldn't be done without making sure it doesn't woefully unbalance stuff, perhaps then it would have to be part of more general rework, if at all.

No, no, not another complete rework. I'm playing with a Shapeshifter in my party right now and I think it's perfect (as opposed to some other classes' HLAs - I'm particularly unhappy about the mages, and have always been). "Feral Spirit" does a very good job of improving the greater form without it becoming too powerful. Usually, my Shapeshifter spends about half the time in his human form and the other half in the GW form, depending on whether or not spells or melee power or regeneration is needed, and uses the normal WW form if wounded in human form, to recover.
If the GW was available at will, it would have to be weaker. Depending on just how much weaker, the result would be that Shapeshifters would either be too weak to have in the party (as in the unmodded game), or too powerful. The way it works now is just right.

[Littiz]

I assigned "paladin melee" for her script out of habit ... Imagine my surprise when the oversized dog started healing folks.

Bug or feature? Please tell me feature :-)

hhhmm, erm... obviously a "feature", for which you have to thank Bioware
Thank them for making class specific scripts pickable by everyone.
And thank them for not putting state checks whatsoever before performing the action....

Hmm, I think I might address it somehow, but I'm alone with all the annoying technical issues ATM, and I have little time to mod, too, so I fear it'll get little priority.

@Ieldra:
What's your opinion about mages?

[Ieldra]

What's your opinion about mages?

I have always been unhappy with the way the mages' HLAs worked - because fighters get *additional* abilities, while mages' HLAs have to share the 9th level spell slots, and it takes forever for them to get more of those. There are all those nice new spells, and I end up nearly never using most of them because I don't have enough spell slots. There are quite a few ways to get more slots - but guess what, not what I really need: L9 slots.
The sorcerer, of couse, doesn't suffer as much from this because he doesn't need to memorize, and priests gain levels fast enough that it isn't as much of a problem for them.

Here's what I suggest: give mages a HLA that gives them an additional L9 spell slot, that can be selected two times.

Apart from that, I like your kit-specific HLA tables for mages very much - on paper, since I haven't been playing a specialist mage for a while. I'll see the necromancer HLAs in action soon, though. But even here: Between Time Stop and Improved Alacrity there isn't much space for the more innovative spells.

Edited by Ieldra, 12 October 2004 - 12:07 AM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

But even here: Between Time Stop and Improved Alacrity there isn't much space for the more innovative spells.

Agree.

Not sure about more 9th level spell slots though. I will say that *not* having the 10th level spells really changes the sorcerer. The power level is down quite noticably. I kind of like the idea of 10th level spells though.

TGM did you ever get your True Dweomer HLA to work?

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 12 October 2004 - 06:12 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

I kind of like the idea of 10th level spells though.

TGM did you ever get your True Dweomer HLA to work?

It will be implemented, but definitely not near v2. It will remove all the 10th level spells from the 9th level slots.

[Ieldra]

And where will they go instead?

[Stone Wolf]

Innates? It sounds interesting, wherever they go.

[T.G.Maestro]

All of you who are not familiar with the project, take a few looks at this:
Refinements True Dweomers discussion .

[Stone Wolf]

It looks good, though I'd suggest only making a few (or one) True Dwoemer available to start with, and let the player learn others from scroll or books and as rewards for quests.

[T.G.Maestro]

If you have comments/suggestions on that topic, please post them in the appropriate thread .
Just to avoid confusion, you know.

[Stone Wolf]

DOH! I'm too tired to post intelligently.

[Shiva]

OK.....

but, +3 claws are not much good when you are at that stage of the game....


there are lots of creatures I have heard that require +4 or better to hit.....


so, couldn't shapeshifters, and err... monks, have the ability to hit such creatures...?

[Caedwyr]

Hardly any creatures require + 4 or better to hit, even in ToB. I've played through using the + 3 version of the Celesital Fury (no item upgrades installed) and not run into any significant problems.

[Feanor]

Hardly any creatures require + 4 or better to hit, even in ToB.  I've played through using the + 3 version of the Celesital Fury (no item upgrades installed) and not run into any significant problems.

Two demiliches, Improved Mantle spells. I suggested some months ago that the Feral Spirit ability should grant the GWW +4 claws. I don't know though what was his final decision.

Edited by Feanor, 27 October 2004 - 05:36 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

so, couldn't shapeshifters, and err... monks, have the ability to hit such creatures...?

Monks "get" +4 fists at high levels.

Three demiliches

Three??? Hmm.. Kangaxx, then the one in WK... where is the third?

Demogorgon

Isn't he immune to +2 only? I'm not sure though, it can be +3.

I suggested some months ago that the Feral Spirit ability should grant the GWW +4 claws. I don't know though what was his final decision

Definitely +3. Shapeshifters are qite powerful in Refinements already, I don't see any reason why they should be able to damage every creature in the game.