99 replies to this topic

[King Diamond]

Trying to resolve an almost unbearable mess with Imoen....

Want to post some issues found so far to correlate a work a little....

1) There're several group of "Imoens".

1st: AfterSpellhold. Imoen211,213... It's all ok about them.

2nd: Bg1 exclusive.

IMOEN (Candlekeep only). Uses BGIMOEN.BCS and IMOEN.DLG. Script is a clean new one, so it's 100% ok, IMOEN.DLG exists in ToB but contains a total rubbish and has no use, so it's free to overwrite it. Done.

IMOEN1,2,4 - all use the same config: "Imoen2" death var, IMOENBG1.BCS, IMOEN2.DLG.
Script is very simple and sets 2 globals that are not in use anywhere else. I'm absolutely sure that we can skip it and modify 3 .CREs by setting it to "None".
IMOEN2.DLG - that's a trouble. Originally that dialog is in use ONLY by Imoens of AS part of the game (Imoen211,213). So I hardly believe that it should be organized in such way - to mix such absolutely unconnected dialogs: AS part and something from BG1. Shouldn't it be much better just to make a new BG_smthng dialog for that? It'll simplify a process heavily...

Next. What should we do with IMOEN2P and IMOEN2J then? They're in use of all "Imoen2"s - read: every Imoen.CRE uses it now.
Can somebody tell me what was a purpose of giving all Imoens deathvar = Imoen2? I think that only put a mess to everything. Can't we return to Imoen/Imoen2 system as it was originally?

3rd: Common BG1/SoA: IMOEN6. Has the same configuration as 1,2,4; the same problems. SoA has it too - different one, but as far as Transition code use a base of IMOEN10.CRE we can use that new one.

4th: SoA, ToB part: IMOEN10,15. IMOEN.bcs, IMOEN10 & 25A.dlg. All seems good there....


2) Better transition code. AR0602.BCS. Imoen recreation part. As far as I understood Imoen10 is a base there. So the present incarnation of Immy is being transferred to it: override dlg set to Imoen.bcs (Ok), dialog set to Imoen10.dlg(ok), items creation etc. BUT default script is being set to DPLAYER.BCS that seems incorrect to me. That script is a pure BG1-part script. Imoen10.cre uses wtasight.bcs instead. Shouldn't it be corrected? : general script set to 'None' and default to wtasight.bcs..... It looks more logically to me....

3) AR6600.bcs - Imoen's creation. 6 level make her as IMOEN61.CRE. That CRE is WRONG and INCOMPLETE. There're no proficiency bonuses, wrong script etc. We have a perfect IMOEN6 that should be there instead.
IMOEN61 is not in use anymore so we can drop it (it exists in both \NewCRE\ and \Modify\CRE\ that is wrong by itself).

4) IMOENDRM.CRE - has nothing new (exists in ToB) except deathvar set to Imoen2. Is it necessary at all for that CRE???? Hardly believe.... I think we can drop that one too from the package.


Next to do - to resolve Imoen's dialogs mess....I'll try to do that taking in account present state of "all-Imoen2".....

Edited by King Diamond, 18 March 2005 - 07:00 AM.

[Ascension64]

What will you be making for the new imoen dialogue then? Just so that I can change it to suit. Mind you we are trying to clean up trash that was made from the original BGT.

Just another side question KD, with the creature extraction and copying that you made a while ago, what was the purpose of keeping some of the creatures in the BGT\Base\CRE directory. I don't want to generalise yet, but some of the creatures I checked are exactly identical with the BG1 copy except for the sounds -- so, can't you just copy the BG1 version of the creature (rename it with BG extension if required) then do the sound patching?

Currently, I am cleaning up these creature copying and patches so that the dialogues get moved to setup.tra (that's right, someone has asked to do a Chinese translation for the mod already! ) I can tell you that most of the patches that need to be made are due to a difference between BG1 and BG2 dialog.tlk files by a single space, particularly with many of the sound-only StrRefs, and those with text (which are repeated over many times in the .tp2) are grammatical/spelling/puncutation errors that look like a pseudo-Baldurdash for BG1. Nevertheless, I cleaved off 60 KB of .tp2 madness just by cleaning up the BG1 copy section.

Edited by Ascension64, 18 March 2005 - 05:57 AM.

[King Diamond]

Just another side question KD, with the creature extraction and copying that you made a while ago, what was the purpose of keeping some of the creatures in the BGT\Base\CRE directory.  I don't want to generalise yet, but some of the creatures I checked are exactly identical with the BG1 copy except for the sounds -- so, can't you just copy the BG1 version of the creature (rename it with BG extension if required) then do the sound patching?

They had a different size or some binary differences from bg1 ones. There were too many to find out what does it mean exactly so I just put it separately. It was before I messed with Baldurdash so most of them are coming from that direction I think now....

[King Diamond]

YES! I've done that...
Imoen is fully fixed right now (I hope). See attachement (tp2 as well to track things' logic).

1) Had to add a small update for IMOEN2.BCS for being able to track 3 Immy incarnations - BG1's, Irenicus dungeon's and the one after Spellhold - with a single set of dialogs (IMOEN2, IMOEN2J, IMOEN2P) that is only one in use with Imoen2 deathvar.
So, now only the included dialogs are necessary, all other (BGIMOENP.D, aIMOENP.D) are useless (btw, 2nd one contained an absolutely rubbish).

And of course it's possible to talk to Imoen at any time now as well as drop her from the party (and pick her up once again) - nothing wrong will happen....


2Horred
Plz look at this issue carefully too - BP has the same problem with broken Immy dialogs. Especially IMOEN2P that overwrites original one replacing it with only BG1 and prior-Spellhold texts (but originally that dlg is for 'after-Spellhold' Imoen211 and all those strings are gone). Everything is fixed now. I tried not to break any BP code as well.



2) Another small update. OBE.DLG, AR6543.BCS.
Fixing a possible tricky stuff when you could get all inventory items from summoned tutorial NPC's (including some +1 items and magic wands as well). It was simple: u had to drop all their stuff on ground and after Obe's dialog script had killed them you got 3-5 seconds to pick it up. You could even left the building with all you new party and continue the game without any problems.
Now all that stuff is prohibited.

Edited by King Diamond, 18 March 2005 - 09:59 AM.

[Ascension64]

YES! I've done that...
Imoen is fully fixed right now (I hope). See attachement (tp2 as well to track things' logic).

1) Had to add a small update for IMOEN2.BCS for being able to track 3 Immy incarnations - BG1's, Irenicus dungeon's and the one after Spellhold - with a single set of dialogs (IMOEN2, IMOEN2J, IMOEN2P) that is only one in use with Imoen2 deathvar.
So, now only the included dialogs are necessary, all other (BGIMOENP.D, aIMOENP.D) are useless (btw, 2nd one contained an absolutely rubbish).

And of course it's possible to talk to Imoen at any time now as well as drop her from the party (and pick her up once again) - nothing wrong will happen.... 

Thanks, KD. :thumb: again. I'll have a look at the other dialogues to see whether they EXTERN ~~ one of those IMOENs that are not necessary and update them.

2) Another small update. OBE.DLG, AR6543.BCS.
Fixing a possible tricky stuff when you could get all inventory items from summoned tutorial NPC's (including some +1 items and magic wands as well). It was simple: u had to drop all their stuff on ground and after Obe's dialog script had killed them you got 3-5 seconds to pick it up. You could even left the building with all you new party and continue the game without any problems.
Now all that stuff is prohibited. 

But I wanted my wacko party!!!
Thanks.

They had a different size or some binary differences from bg1 ones. There were too many to find out what does it mean exactly so I just put it separately. It was before I messed with Baldurdash so most of them are coming from that direction I think now....

No worries. There are only 109, so I'll look at each one and fix them up as I go. With any luck, I could save about 1700 lines in WeiDU if I could just copy most things straight from BG1CRE to BGTCRE with a single COPY.

Edited by Ascension64, 18 March 2005 - 02:04 PM.

[King Diamond]

Update on Kagain dialogs/script/quest. It seems that my old time fixes were included only partially so they don't have any sense in that configuration.

Atatchment includes several files:

1) Area file was wrong - didn't have lost child's body (AR6900.ARE)
2) 2 dialogs modified a little (unused extra statements removed)
3) Kagain script modified a little (xKAGAIN.BAF).

Bonus: BGT-WeiDU TP2 contains such fragment:

COPY_EXISTING ~AR2800.BCS~ ~override~  /* This is actually a script the Kagain caravan area */
  EXTEND_BOTTOM ~AR2800.BCS~ ~BGT/Modify/BAF/xAR2800.BAF~

that is completely wrong . That area has nothing to do with Kagain's quest.

Btw a right one - AR6900.bcs - is updated correctly, so those 2 strings just should be removed as well as xAR2800.BAF dropped from the package.

[Ascension64]

Update on Kagain dialogs/script/quest. It seems that my old time fixes were included only partially so they don't have any sense in that configuration.

Atatchment includes several files:

1) Area file was wrong - didn't have lost child's body (AR6900.ARE)
2) 2 dialogs modified a little (unused extra statements removed)
3) Kagain script modified a little (xKAGAIN.BAF).

Bonus: BGT-WeiDU TP2 contains such fragment:

COPY_EXISTING ~AR2800.BCS~ ~override~  /* This is actually a script the Kagain caravan area */
  EXTEND_BOTTOM ~AR2800.BCS~ ~BGT/Modify/BAF/xAR2800.BAF~

that is completely wrong . That area has nothing to do with Kagain's quest.

Btw a right one - AR6900.bcs - is updated correctly, so those 2 strings just should be removed as well as xAR2800.BAF dropped from the package.

I wrote a note in the .tp2 file because that thing didn't belong at all! At least we have now found out where it was supposed to go. Sounds cool. Are you able to find the sources for the other weird script patches (all the ones with /* <blah blah> */)?

The Immy fixes are all in
However, IMOEN61.CRE is the EXACT COPY of the BG1 IMOEN6.CRE without any changes, so I will still be using that (the proficiencies are within the data, so no effects are required -- but I did change the script and death variable). The current IMOEN6.CRE actually looks useless as it looks like a little modification of IMOEN61.CRE and overwrites the existing IMOEN6.CRE in BG2 (which has an entry in NPCLEVEL.2DA).

Edited by Ascension64, 19 March 2005 - 06:14 AM.

[King Diamond]

I just have a little question about a series of GLOBALs such as "XzarAlive", "MontaronAlive" etc. (for all NPCs) from partying dialogs actions.

They DO have some sense to me but I'm not sure if they are in a real usage somewhere else. Would it be better to leave them for a possible usage or can we skip them to clean a code and to save some rosources?


[EDIT]ANother update. This one is a last piece that covers my screwed old time NPCs update.
Kivan and Alora dialogs (with TDD compat checks) are here.

So next fix will arise as soon as I find something during my current game.

Edited by King Diamond, 19 March 2005 - 07:31 AM.

[King Diamond]

SONGLIST.2DA patching (in tp2) is written in several rows without carriage return.
Every new entry should be separated....

[King Diamond]

However, IMOEN61.CRE is the EXACT COPY of the BG1 IMOEN6.CRE without any changes, so I will still be using that (the proficiencies are within the data, so no effects are required -- but I did change the script and death variable).  The current IMOEN6.CRE actually looks useless as it looks like a little modification of IMOEN61.CRE and overwrites the existing IMOEN6.CRE in BG2 (which has an entry in NPCLEVEL.2DA).

So, that IS A PROBLEM - "the proficiencies are within the data, so no effects are required". I've reached it now in my current game when my NPC was leveled up (Kagain).

He's gained 1 proficiency slot and when I look into his prof sheet it was CLEAN! Yes - absolutely clean, but stats tell me that he has + for shield, ++ for axes and something else.... And that's the problem (a difference between BG1 and BG2 I think). BG2 sets proficiencies stars via EFFECTS, not stats fields.....
Just look into BP - every NPC have proficiency set with effects.
So EVERY NPC must have it (NO IMOEN61!!! )

Plz replace every NPC CRE with taken from original BGT, BUT don't forget to check KIT field to set it to known one (!!).

[EDIT] Checked every present NPC CRE's: sorry to say, but everything, that you've taken from BG1 is WRONG.... All of them are Permanent corpses etc....
So using of original BGT versions is NECESSARY.
BUT BGT versions have wrong sound sets, so it's necessary to refresh it for all NPCs during installation.


[EDIT2] Opss, sorry - not from original BGT, but FROM BP!!!
Plz don't bother yourself with that right now - I've found a way to fix all that with a minimal effort so I'll make a package for that.

Edited by King Diamond, 19 March 2005 - 11:03 AM.

[horred the plague]

MontaronAlive, XzarAlive, etc were variables that were set to show that the person was alive in BG1, when they left the party--so that this could be translated over into BG2. Things like these variables were used to put Jaheira, etc into BG2--or not to. You might be able to use a Dead() check for this, but a global set like this is more reliable--esp if somebody clowns around with ctrl-r. I can't recall if Bardez had his own version or not, or if I built on top of his or not--it's been a long time since I poked around in the files.

[Ascension64]

However, IMOEN61.CRE is the EXACT COPY of the BG1 IMOEN6.CRE without any changes, so I will still be using that (the proficiencies are within the data, so no effects are required -- but I did change the script and death variable).  The current IMOEN6.CRE actually looks useless as it looks like a little modification of IMOEN61.CRE and overwrites the existing IMOEN6.CRE in BG2 (which has an entry in NPCLEVEL.2DA).

So, that IS A PROBLEM - "the proficiencies are within the data, so no effects are required". I've reached it now in my current game when my NPC was leveled up (Kagain).

He's gained 1 proficiency slot and when I look into his prof sheet it was CLEAN! Yes - absolutely clean, but stats tell me that he has + for shield, ++ for axes and something else.... And that's the problem (a difference between BG1 and BG2 I think). BG2 sets proficiencies stars via EFFECTS, not stats fields.....
Just look into BP - every NPC have proficiency set with effects.
So EVERY NPC must have it (NO IMOEN61!!! )

Plz replace every NPC CRE with taken from original BGT, BUT don't forget to check KIT field to set it to known one (!!).

[EDIT] Checked every present NPC CRE's: sorry to say, but everything, that you've taken from BG1 is WRONG.... All of them are Permanent corpses etc....
So using of original BGT versions is NECESSARY.
BUT BGT versions have wrong sound sets, so it's necessary to refresh it for all NPCs during installation.


[EDIT2] Opss, sorry - not from original BGT, but FROM BP!!!
Plz don't bother yourself with that right now - I've found a way to fix all that with a minimal effort so I'll make a package for that.

you have confused me, but I get the general idea. The difference is a COSMETIC one right? i.e. CREATURES with flagged proficiencies (which means not as an effect) will still get the associated bonuses right? To check that, does Kagain still get the Mastery bonus for axes rather than just the Proficient one?


On other things:
1. SONGLIST.2DA -- I picked that up already
2. DRMTXTs -- You won't be getting dream text in your game due to a similar effect from the CHPTXTs, I have fixed them all so don't worry about those
3. Kagain, Kivan, Alora fixes -- they are in, but the Kagain Caravan quest had variables set all over the place which likely prevented it from working, so I fixed the lost child quest too
4. xAR2800 patching -- Removed, but AR6900.BCS was incorrect since a variable of KagainCaravan=2 means that the quest is finished. Looking at the original AR2800.BCS of BG1, the Global check should be GlobalLT check, so I changed that to suit.
5. MontaronAlive, XzarAlive -- from my SBT experience these aren't used there, but it is probably better to keep them there just in case, which brings me to...

Is there a good way to remove redundant globals from the savegame?
My experience has been that having too many globals loaded into memory causes the game to chug (i.e. pause slightly every x frames). This may be tricky but could be well worth it.

Edited by Ascension64, 19 March 2005 - 09:43 PM.

[King Diamond]

you have confused me, but I get the general idea.  The difference is a COSMETIC one right?  i.e. CREATURES with flagged proficiencies (which means not as an effect) will still get the associated bonuses right?  To check that, does Kagain still get the Mastery bonus for axes rather than just the Proficient one?

No, absolutely NON cosmetic. Once again: BG2 handles all proficiency bonuses VIA PROFICIENCIES EFFECTS!

When NPC without effects is levelling up there won't be ANY prof star in his sheet. When you set one it appears as ANOTHER proficiency bonus. For example, "flagged" Kagain has 2 stars in Axes. After levelling up (I set 1 Axes star more) his charachter sheet shows: ** in Axes, something else..., and once again - 1 star in Axes (recently set). EFFECTS must be used.

So, as I promised, I'll post a package with updated CREs soon. It won't be necessary to modify tp2 - they'll have everything set properly, including soundsets....

3. Kagain, Kivan, Alora fixes -- they are in, but the Kagain Caravan quest had variables set all over the place which likely prevented it from working, so I fixed the lost child quest too
4. xAR2800 patching -- Removed, but AR6900.BCS was incorrect since a variable of KagainCaravan=2 means that the quest is finished.  Looking at the original AR2800.BCS of BG1, the Global check should be GlobalLT check, so I changed that to suit.

I don't know what have you done there but the version I posted here is absolutely working. I tested it personaly in several configurations (I don't post anything without testing). So you probably broke it
And plz do not refer to bg1 in this case: bg1's version of his quest just ends immediatelly after entering that area without any result that sucks. I've modified it to use already existing dialog resources: it's possible now to find the boy.....

P.S> It would be clearer...

Edited by King Diamond, 21 March 2005 - 01:27 AM.

[Ascension64]

No, absolutely NON cosmetic. Once again: BG2 handles all proficiency bonuses VIA PROFICIENCIES EFFECTS!

When NPC without effects is levelling up there won't be ANY prof star in his sheet. When you set one it appears as ANOTHER proficiency bonus. For example, "flagged" Kagain has 2 stars in Axes. After levelling up (I set 1 Axes star more) his charachter sheet shows: ** in Axes, something else..., and once again - 1 star in Axes (recently set). EFFECTS must be used.

So, as I promised, I'll post a package with updated CREs soon. It won't be necessary to modify tp2 - they'll have everything set properly, including soundsets....

No, what I mean is does the bonus still apply to CREATURES THAT DO NOT JOIN THE PARTY? If yes then I refer to it as COSMETIC, because the bonus still applies. However, you are referring to the problem with levelling up not recognising the existing proficiency flags, which is a different thing altogether really. So, in the Kagain thing, if you picked him up with two ** in axes, then ignoring anything about levelling up, does he get the associated bonuses for having **?

With the updated CREs that you are going to post, are they updated CREs of the BGT09b-WeiDU package?

3. Kagain, Kivan, Alora fixes -- they are in, but the Kagain Caravan quest had variables set all over the place which likely prevented it from working, so I fixed the lost child quest too
4. xAR2800 patching -- Removed, but AR6900.BCS was incorrect since a variable of KagainCaravan=2 means that the quest is finished.  Looking at the original AR2800.BCS of BG1, the Global check should be GlobalLT check, so I changed that to suit.

I don't know what have you done there but the version I posted here is absolutely working. I tested it personaly in several configurations (I don't post anything without testing). So you probably broke it
And plz do not refer to bg1 in this case: bg1's version of his quest just ends immediatelly after entering that area without any result that sucks. I've modified it to use already existing dialog resources: it's possible now to find the boy.....

I know exactly what happens in BG1, and by changing the variables a little I made absolutely sure that the BG1 version of the quest is irrevocably forgotten, i.e. I got rid of the part of the dialogue that made the quest finish prematurely like it did in BG1. Trust me, in essence I just cleaned up the files.

[King Diamond]

No, what I mean is does the bonus still apply to CREATURES THAT DO NOT JOIN THE PARTY?  If yes then I refer to it as COSMETIC, because the bonus still applies.  However, you are referring to the problem with levelling up not recognising the existing proficiency flags, which is a different thing altogether really.  So, in the Kagain thing, if you picked him up with two ** in axes, then ignoring anything about levelling up, does he get the associated bonuses for having **?

I'm talking about NPCs only all the time.
I don't know if those non-effect bonuses are applied, but I do know that NPC thing must be fixed.

With the updated CREs that you are going to post, are they updated CREs of the BGT09b-WeiDU package?

As soon as not any of known editors can handle those effects addition clearly (DLTCEP doesn't recognize 233 effect code and can't decifer its parameters as well as NI that corrupts the file if any effect is added) it'll be BP-BGT CREs with corrected soundsets, spells knowing/memorization, kit fixes etc. I'll stay as much closer to BGT09b-WeiDU....

I know exactly what happens in BG1, and by changing the variables a little I made absolutely sure that the BG1 version of the quest is irrevocably forgotten, i.e. I got rid of the part of the dialogue that made the quest finish prematurely like it did in BG1.  Trust me, in essence I just cleaned up the files.

I do not trust you.... Can you plz sent your modifications to me?

[King Diamond]

MontaronAlive, XzarAlive, etc were variables that were set to show that the person was alive in BG1, when they left the party--so that this could be translated over into BG2. Things like these variables were used to put Jaheira, etc into BG2--or not to. You might be able to use a Dead() check for this, but a global set like this is more reliable--esp if somebody clowns around with ctrl-r. I can't recall if Bardez had his own version or not, or if I built on top of his or not--it's been a long time since I poked around in the files.

I'd use them personally as well but I'm not sure if such code still exists later in game... So everybody here agreed to keep them... :thumb:

[Ascension64]

As soon as not any of known editors can handle those effects addition clearly (DLTCEP doesn't recognize 233 effect code and can't decifer its parameters as well as NI that corrupts the file if any effect is added) it'll be BP-BGT CREs with corrected soundsets, spells knowing/memorization, kit fixes etc. I'll stay as much closer to BGT09b-WeiDU....

Can you make the soundset entries for the NPCs that have a file in the Modify/CRE exactly as they are in those files? I guess the only exception are the sound entries with <No such index> StrRefs. This is to make sure they are consistent with the WeiDU changes. I'd rather you do this than change the WeiDU sound patching because the way I have done this is quite tricky.

I do not trust you....  Can you plz sent your modifications to me?

Attached. Shoot me!

[horred the plague]

MontaronAlive, XzarAlive, etc were variables that were set to show that the person was alive in BG1, when they left the party--so that this could be translated over into BG2. Things like these variables were used to put Jaheira, etc into BG2--or not to. You might be able to use a Dead() check for this, but a global set like this is more reliable--esp if somebody clowns around with ctrl-r. I can't recall if Bardez had his own version or not, or if I built on top of his or not--it's been a long time since I poked around in the files.

I'd use them personally as well but I'm not sure if such code still exists later in game... So everybody here agreed to keep them... :thumb:

Well, this should make your quest to eliminate GLOBAL's happy. I just went through about 100 or so of the remaining BP BAF files, and eliminated dozens of unnecessary GLOBAL variables.

[King Diamond]

Attached.  Shoot me! 

Oh, I see what you 've done....
My arguments will contain some possible spoilers so i'll PM you....

[King Diamond]

This is NPCs update.

1) All proficiencies transferred to effects, some bugs fixed (wrong script and dialog usage).
2) Only included CREs are from BG1 part, anything else is reserved by BG2 and already exist there.
3) Following 2) - IMOEN6 and VICONI6 are BG2 charachters (!). Corresponding files must be removed from the installation package and not to be installed. There're IMOEN61 and VICONI61 instead. AR8900.BCS should spawn VICONI61 instead VICONI6.
4) Sorry, I was wrong a little about BGXZAR, BGQUAYLE, IMOEN61 etc. So AR6600, AR7900 BCS should remain original in a case of NPC spawning. All that CREs are olso included here.

5) KOCH.DLG is unused and contains some BS. Should be removed from the package.

6) AR0602.bcs - better transition. Imoen's char by default for the new game is IMOEN10. I think it should be IMOEN6 instead


7) Attachment 2. Gorion's death cutscene scripts fixed (smoothier than ever): switching to midnight is now performing during area reloading; now it's possible to hear everything that Gorion says ; battle music do not interfere his speach; it's raining (as it should be).

------------------

A question:
Should BALDUR.GAM be cleared/modified somehow in BP way to avoid NPCs doublespawning? By script and by game's engine based on .GAM info....

Edited by King Diamond, 22 March 2005 - 08:46 AM.