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Older versions archive part 5: Shadow Thieves


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#61 aVENGER

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:28 PM

While working for Bodhi, she gives you a choice between two tasks after you've collected the package from Mook. One of the tasks involves killing a noble and framing the Shadow Thieves. I'm not sure how you could improve this quest, but it might be worth looking into. The guy has two bodyguards but they're not too tough. The halfling mage doesn't wield much magic at all


I'll consider it, but since the person in question is supposed to be just some misc noble, not truly a member of the Shadow Thieves but merely working for them, that encounter wouldn't get a significant boost from me.

Gaelen's house is quite small, though one or two archers near the stairs would turn the Gaelen encounter into a tight trap. Maybe Gaelen could run upstairs after sicing his men on you.


I don't think he should run upstairs, it would be unwise to do so as it would lead him to a dead end, thus making him fight the party without any help. Also, if you noticed, he actually helps his bodyguards a bit by using the wand of paralyzation and attacking occasionally.

I, too, was disappointed with the Shadow Thief guild hall lower level. I think Aran could've summoned the Air Elemental and Shadows -- it's within reason at least. Aran does summon a cool demon, which you should keep in his AI.


Actually, I'll most certainly remove that. Demons are just too unreliable to be of any use to enemies IMO. BTW, the shadows and orcs seam to be hardcoded as 'spawning points' into the .are file instead of just being placed so I'll definitively have to do some work there. I'll probably replace them with golems and perhaps some lower level thugs.

If you upgrade the traps, what will you replace them with? The traps should be less magic-based IMO.


Yes, I disliked some of the magic based traps as well i.e. Maze and Dire Charm, not very roguish indeed. I'll try to add more mechanical traps like the hidden spear trap, poisoned arrow trap, wall arrow trap, Acid blob trap...etc but I will keep some more plausible magic based traps like the Lightning bolt trap, Fireball trap, Cloudkill trap, Web trap, Stinking Cloud trap etc. An interesting spot for adding new traps would be the training course with the guillotines. I could place some nasty web traps there and give the archers on the sides some arrows of detonation. The narrow corridors where the orcs were seam perfect for a few lightning traps. I'll also try to add a Dispell Magic trap at the entrance to Aran's chamber.

#62 -KaPe-

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 11:38 PM

Just a question, I got this Kachiko(or whatever) in ch6, even though I killed Aran and destroyed ST. Is that supposed to happen?^^ She should backstab PC, not vampires in such case :rolleyes:

#63 Longinus

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 03:11 AM

I could place some nasty web traps there and give the archers on the sides some arrows of detonation.

Now that's an excellent idea. Why didn't Bioware think of it?

All your new/old yet improved trap ideas sound good. I do love to see lightening bolts bounce off one wall to the next and so on. What I expected to find in the thieves guild were pressure plate traps -- you tread on the ground, it sinks slightly, and then arrows shoot out from the walls. Now imagine them shooting darts that render their victims unconscious.

Are you going to add any extra treasure to the guild, like a new weapon? If you side with the thieves and prevail upon Aran in chapter 6 and thus gain his aid, you're rewarded with a sword. An extra weapon or something similarly magical found on Aran's corpse might balance that out. Ok, it's just a suggestion. When working against the thieves, you come across some extra items anyway.

You could throw a few low level fighter/mages into the Shadow Thief mix. I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever you use.
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#64 Longinus

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 03:14 AM

Just a question, I got this Kachiko(or whatever) in ch6, even though I killed Aran and destroyed ST. Is that supposed to happen?^^ She should backstab PC, not vampires in such case :rolleyes:

Do you have the Tortured Souls mod installed.

The assassins Aran sends to aid the PC are Arkanis, Yeanasha, Gofus, and Yachiko.

Kachiko is someone else (Yoshimo's lover right?).

If it is the same person -- one of Aran's assassins, then I cannot provide an answer. A bug perhaps?
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#65 -KaPe-

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 03:22 AM

I don't have "Tortured Souls", maybe it was Yochiko. She was going invis. and backstabbing couple vampires, then she oppened the doors to the south and dissapeared. :blink:

#66 Longinus

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 03:44 AM

I don't have "Tortured Souls", maybe it was Yochiko. She was going invis. and backstabbing couple vampires, then she oppened the doors to the south and dissapeared. :blink:

Sounds like a bug. Avenger will have an answer.
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#67 aVENGER

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 04:35 AM

@KaPe :

Just a question, I got this Kachiko(or whatever) in ch6, even though I killed Aran and destroyed ST. Is that supposed to happen?^^


No most certainly not! :D The strange thing is, Bioware used some really idiotic coding methods to spawn the thieves, I had a lot of trouble figuring out how it works at first. Instead of simply using the area scripts for this purpose (which are somewhat bugged too BTW), C6ARKAN.CRE (aka Arkanis) is spawned by C6TANOV.CRE (Tanova) and C6KACH.CRE (aka Kachiko) is spawned by a Fledgling Vampire! :rolleyes: I must have overlooked a line of code that coordinated her spawning with the shadow thief global variable. Anyway, thanks for reporting this KaPe I'll fix it in the next revision.

@Longinus:

What I expected to find in the thieves guild were pressure plate traps -- you tread on the ground, it sinks slightly, and then arrows shoot out from the walls. Now imagine them shooting darts that render their victims unconscious.


Hmm, that sounds doable although I'd have to create custom scripts and spells for such a trap, and the pressure plate animation would most certainly be missing :(

Are you going to add any extra treasure to the guild, like a new weapon?


Nope, no new treasure, well except for the extra Dagger of Venom, some Arrows of Detonation and the generic +1 and +2 items.

BTW, after some heavy consideration, I've decided to ditch the 'bodyguard' idea for Gaelan, and instead I've assigned some of my improved Shadow Thieves to guard him (STAS01.CRE), they are identical to those which spawn near the guild when you join with Bodhi. Also, for some variety I've included a couple of crossbow wielding Shadow Thieves. They are multi classed Fighter7 / Thief8, attack with Bolts of Biting and use a Wand of Fear occasionally. Some of them have also been added to the first floor thief guild battle (on the platform) as you suggested. I've sent you another beta revision which includes these improvements as well as the fixed C6 Shadow Thief Allies.

#68 Longinus

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 05:15 AM

I just tested your latest beta improvements. I love the new Shadow Thief guard arrangment in Gaelen's house. Three invisibly surround you, which is feasible, and the archers appear next to the stairs as if they've come down. Sweet. And yes, they are challenging too. The bolts of biting and wands of fear is another creative use of AI.

The C6 allies seem ok. Nice distinctive colors and when they become invisible you can't see them.

Adding archers to the landing of the first guildhall area was also a good addition. The thieves and mages swarm you, but if the combatents behind the first door stayed there, that would force the player to go through the door, and so through them just to get to the archers.

Keep it up. :)
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#69 Mikka

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 06:02 AM

Actually, if you could, I would suggest keeping him summoning the demon, as he summons it in the hallway- where it's too big to fit in the door to actually get near him. I believe it's the demon that drains mage spells- which is a good idea, because it's likely your mages will still be in the hallway when you first walk in to the room and Aran first notices your front-line group. I thought I was being smart by keeping my mages out back away from the fighters, but voom! Demon came, and they were useless. -_- Bah!

#70 Longinus

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 06:06 AM

Actually, if you could, I would suggest keeping him summoning the demon, as he summons it in the hallway- where it's too big to fit in the door to actually get near him. I believe it's the demon that drains mage spells- which is a good idea, because it's likely your mages will still be in the hallway when you first walk in to the room and Aran first notices your front-line group. I thought I was being smart by keeping my mages out back away from the fighters, but voom! Demon came, and they were useless. -_- Bah!

Aran unleashes a Nabbasu upon your group. They silence anyone nearby; mages beware!
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#71 aVENGER

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 06:52 AM

@Mikka:

Actually, if you could, I would suggest keeping him summoning the demon...


The Nabbasu is quite powerful, no dispute here. Judging by the scripts it can cast silence, vampiric touch, paralyze and use its death gaze as well, not to mention the innate 50% MR and -8 AC. My main objection to demons is that they are too dependant on Protection from Evil. It's pretty easy to dispell this and in that case the demon often turns against it's summoner ;) That's what I mean when I say they are not reliable. Also, all summoned demons are considered as 'GOODBUTRED' by their allegiance which means that other enemies will attack them unless the PC's do so first. In any case, I'll run a couple of experiments and see how the situation develops.

#72 Longinus

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 06:13 AM

I thought the Nabbasu was one of the few redeeming qualities about the weakened Shadow Thief guild. I remember the first time I saw a summon fiend spell in BG2 -- I couldn't believe my eyes.

You could close the door as soon as Aran casts the spell in the hallway and so block the enemy's line of sight. If you closed the other door as well, the one back down the corridor, then the player would become trapped in a small space with a demon hungry for human flesh.

I just realised: if you take over Mae'var's guild and seek Aran's help in chapter 6, he recongizes you as a Shadow Thief and gives his aid automatically. Wow, at least Bioware included that.

What I'd like are a few more thiefly quests which involve stealing things. Another Renal quest perhaps?
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#73 Schatten

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 08:56 AM

What I'd like are a few more thiefly quests which involve stealing things. Another Renal quest perhaps?

yo. after you brought the ring back to its owner (one of the temple quests) renal tells you you have to steal it from them. ;)
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#74 Longinus

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 09:10 AM

What I'd like are a few more thiefly quests which involve stealing things. Another Renal quest perhaps?

yo. after you brought the ring back to its owner (one of the temple quests) renal tells you you have to steal it from them. ;)


Oops, I misunderstood. Yeah that would be a great idea. He should've offered more quests involving theft.
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#75 -KaPe-

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 02:40 AM

Aran summoned demon in non-modified game? :blink: Just tried this, killed his guards and waited for him to cast it - nope, he unleashed some pathetic low level spells but no Nabassu.
Besides - casting Remove Magic would make it pointless anyway - so maybe you could give him item with constant Pro.Evil?(like SotM does)

#76 Longinus

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Posted 18 May 2003 - 07:34 AM

Aran summoned demon in non-modified game? :blink: Just tried this, killed his guards and waited for him to cast it - nope, he unleashed some pathetic low level spells but no Nabassu.
Besides - casting Remove Magic would make it pointless anyway - so maybe you could give him item with constant Pro.Evil?(like SotM does)

It's the first spell Aran casts after his spell trigger fires. Try just summoning the hostile Aran (ARAN02.cre - I think) and you'll see.

Shame the non-modified guild as a whole was a walkover. The Shadow Thieves wouldn't have hesitated to poison your food or something. You know, I thought the guild was ok, but there should've been a few more elite assassins, and Aran should've cast improved haste as his final spell.
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#77 aVENGER

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Posted 22 May 2003 - 08:04 AM

Sorry for the lack of updates people, I've been very busy in the past few weeks. Between my incoming exams, and my girlfriend's constant complaining that I'm spending more time with 'that infernal machine' than with her :rolleyes: I've had very little chance to do some modding...

Nonetheless, I've managed to upgrade a few aspects of the Shadow Thief guild basement (where you fight Aran). The extensive area editing is a bit more difficult than I expected but I think I can handle it. So far, I've changed most of the Thieves and thugs to Fighter/Thieves and added some more effective ranged support like archers with arrows of biting. I've also enhanced the battle with Booter (the torturer) and gave him some backup, and he is now a lvl 13 Berserker BTW.

I've also managed to add a couple of nasty traps. Expect to encounter lightning traps in narrow corridors and watch out for poisoned darts popping out of dark corners B) The secret corridor which leads to Aran's chamber has been filled with Clay Golems and I've added some Web and Stinking Cloud traps there as well. Since the golems are immune to their effects (along with any electrical damage from the lightning traps) the corridor became quite a challenging location. I've removed all of the ridiculous spawns like Orcs and Shadows. Also, once you descend to this floor an alarm is sounded, and all the exits are sealed. You have to kill Aran first in order to escape.

Next on my list is the guillotine bridge and the battle with Haz and company. I'll leave Aran's chamber for the grand finale because I want to fully concentrate on his AI. BTW, I just noticed that he was incorrectly defined as a multi classed lvl Mage14/Thief14 although he is clearly Human. I've decided to make him a dual-classed Illusionist14/Thief16 instead since this is the only way he will fit under the SoA XP cap. he had an unnaturally good thac0 and stats so I had to remove some of those. No worries though, my brand new AI should make up for any of his physical weaknesses :ph34r:

#78 Longinus

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 05:55 AM

Don't forget those arrows of detonation and a cadre of invisible attackers. :D

I was thinking... you could upgrade the muggers who spawn in groups in city areas - the muggers who attack without reason or dialogue. They are supposed to be fighter/thieves yet their stats are all wrong. The groups consist of a ruffian captain, two muggers and a thug.

I'd still love to see more vampire/Shadow Thief skirmishes but I'm happy with an improved guild.

Do you remember that Dawn ring quest for the temple of Lathander? Borinal is clearly a Shadow Thief (he's wearing a Shadow Thief outfit for crying out loud), though when drawn into a fight he's a pushover.

Anyway, keep it up! :)
"If you remember me, then you must also remember what you did!"

~ Edge, Panzer Dragoon Saga

#79 aVENGER

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 08:16 AM

Well, for the moment I'll definitively have to focus on finishing the improved guild, as it alone requires a lot of time and effort. I'm going for a series of challenging group battles rather than a few sporadic stray rogues as Bioware originally did it. Also, expect the guild to be heavily trapped. I had to remove a bunch of scripted spawn instances as well which serve little purpose now that I can place creatures and objects at will via area editing.

I've also readjusted some of the existing characters that were incorrectly defined. Many of them had too good stats, AC, Thac0 and hit points for their class/race/level so I had to tone that down. Nonetheless, with my improved scripts assigned they are now much more formidable opponents IMO. The improved Cleric12/Mages11 (aka Priests of Mask) are proving to be rather useful in reenforcing the thieves. In fact, I'm under the impression that my improved guild might turn out a bit too difficult for low level players, especially since I included a script which locks all doors and disables resting in the area until Aran is slain. I'll definitively have to do much more area testing before making the mod public...

#80 Longinus

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 11:57 AM

The player will now think twice before siding against one of the most powerful criminal organizations ever known. :ph34r:

That's why I wanted some more hostile Shadow Thief encounters in the game before the player makes that decision. The three Shadow Thieves you fight at the end of Irenicus' dungeon are hardly a testament to the guild's strength. You're not really discouraged from fighting the thieves in fact.
"If you remember me, then you must also remember what you did!"

~ Edge, Panzer Dragoon Saga