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Valen's Final Death


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#21 Thorium Dragon

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Posted 20 October 2003 - 02:22 PM

... Maybe the PC has to get hold of something innocent, a child or a neutral bystander to get Valen back, or back faster.  Maybe some dialog-option with the urn, where Valen/the urn randomly chooses a kind of creature(man, elf, orc, silver dragon, whatever) to be sacrificed...

Sounds a bit complex, I think.

I proposed the urn solution to overcome the obstacles of her dying in, say, the Abyss where her grave is unreachable. Having to kill a kuo-tua would recreate this problem if the character was finished with the Underdark.

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#22 HardenCoonor

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 07:21 AM

Sounds a bit complex, I think.


Definetly. It was meant to. And Kuo Toa you can always find in the underdark. They spawn again and again. Even in the area where you can access Suldanessalar you can find them.

And killing a specific creature is maybe just to get her back faster, not needed to get her back at all. Maybe with creature instantly, without creature 10 or more days. Unfortunately bg2 and soa are not that time-sensitive, so waiting for 10 days is affordable without suffering penalties in battles, group-members leaving or similar things.

#23 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 04:43 AM

Anyway, the debate is pointless unless there is someone (other than the author) who can implement these changes. Valen mod won't be changed by Weimer in the future I guess.
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#24 Schatten

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 02:11 PM

true. its really sad bvecause here are some good ideas. :(
it seems none of wes mods get any changes besides bug fixes. :(
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#25 Auvrin

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 09:21 PM

Sola has gotten a great deal of changes. I personally wouldn't blame him for not responding to every single person who decides to suggest changing his mods all together and/or adding a great deal more to them.

It shouldn't be expected for someone who made something of their own accord, own free time, and own ideas, to alter/add/extend their mods by request of people who paid nothing for it. Bug fixing is an added bonus, and THAT shouldn't even be expected. I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but well.. That's how you said it.

He's got a life, and from what has been said, he's aiming for a PHD. That is by no means easy, and not something a person would want to blow off to make other people they don't even know happy.

Again, free is free. Don't insult a gift giver, wether it was intended or not.
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#26 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 11:48 PM

First fo all Auvrin, there is a great difference between insults and creative suggestions. Before going on some crusade against supporters of a mod, one should always consider, that some of the projects wouldn't be on the same class, or even complete without them.

I personally wouldn't blame him for not responding to every single person who decides to suggest changing his mods

But responding to NONE of them is slightly different, don't you think? ;) I would call that "abandoned/finished project", total lack of time, or dismissal.

It shouldn't be expected for someone who made something of their own accord, own free time, and own ideas, to alter/add/extend their mods by request of people who paid nothing for it

Nope, not true at all. Most modders make their modifications for the communitiy as well. If one wouldn't been interested in sharing/discussing his projects with other players, he wouldn't come to these forums. Remember, these forums are called "MOD DISCUSSION, BUG REPORTING, FUTURE SUGGESTIONS" and so on. As I've said 75% of all mods wouldn't have such quality and complexity without all the fans and supporters.

He's got a life, and from what has been said, he's aiming for a PHD.

And that is completely allright, no problem with that one. If you read those posts again (and a bit more thoroughly) you will notice that most posts and topics are about suggestions instead of "insults" as you put it.

Again, free is free. Don't insult a gift giver, wether it was intended or not

Since there were no insults (at least I haven't noticed any <_< ) this debate should be closed as well.
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#27 Schatten

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 07:44 AM

maestro said it all.
gentoo sex is updatedb; locate; talk; date; cd; strip; look; touch; finger; unzip; uptime; gawk; head; emerge --oneshot condom; mount; fsck; gasp; more; yes; yes; yes; more; umount; emerge -C condom; make clean; sleep.

#28 Auvrin

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 03:39 PM

Anyway, the debate is pointless unless there is someone (other than the author) who can implement these changes. Valen mod won't be changed by Weimer in the future I guess.


true. its really sad because here are some good ideas.
it seems none of wes mods get any changes besides bug fixes.


I think those alone prove all my points, and my opinion remains very concrete. As I said, I doubt they were intended as insults, though you twisted my words saying I called them direct insults.

None of those comments that were quoted above were warranted, or even needed. You're right though, these forums are about mod development, and bug reporting, and all are very free to express their opinions, as I'm doing so now.

However, alot of people continue to forget that none of these mods would have ever been made, or offered up to the community without the self sacrifice of another person. You may not find those above quoted comments insulting, and again since you twisted my words before, I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but I for one do. Think of it as though someone has made you a gift, and you then complain that the gift is flawed in some fashion. True, this place is meant to report those flaws, but there is nothing stating that any mod maker HAS to fix, change, or add to their mod. By all means, support the projects you enjoy, offer encouragement, report the bugs, and throw in your ideas. The above comments aren't needed however.

The only time my opinion in this matter will EVER change is if payment is required for a mod. Even these forums are in place out of Neil's kindness, which he even no doubt puts money into out of his own pocket. Nothing about, on, or even within these forums should ever receive those kinds of feedback. Though you are correct on one matter, however, and that's leaving this discussion off the forum and taken up in private rather then spamming everyone else.
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#29 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 01:54 AM

Wasn't try to twist your words, believe me.
The truth is, both of us have some valid points in this one, so I'll leave this one as it is right now. No need for arguing over a "dead" project.
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#30 Thorium Dragon

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 05:21 AM

The urn solution mentioned above will be implemented in the Valen Expansion. It should be an interesting merge of scripting, dialog, and item creation. :thumb:

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#31 fallen_demon

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 12:51 PM

while the urn would be nice for gameplay balance, it doesn't really work with why this topic was brought up by TG Maestro.

First of all, she is a Vampire, and not a simple Zombie. The later would really die the FD if killed, because of his undead shell is destroyed. But since Valen is a Vampire, it seems absolutely nonsense, that she simply DIES after struck down. In the "Final Re-balancing" thread people keep talkin about she should remain as she is, because any change on her would make her differ from a normal Vampire. Now, I'm asking, what's the dealk this time? Her Final Death is everything, but realistic. Noemally she should turn into gaseous form, and flee the area to recover somewhere safe.
Here comes a little idea (as I recall, it was already mentioned somewhere): is it possible, that every time she "dies" (as she reaches 1 Hp), she would turn into gas and disappear. After this she would respawn in the graveyard district, for example in one of the tombs (this one should be Valens tomb). If the party would like to get her back, you would only need to go to the Graveyards and ask her to rejoin.
I think this would make her character more interesting, and would solve the annoyance of her FD.

An urn isn't any more how vampires work then dying normally. they can't reform as ashes, ashes are unstakeable and they would be comepletely immortal. imo a traditional cofin would fit better, that could be established in different cities but would give her a respawn point there. I could personally live w/ some final death instances.
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#32 Thorium Dragon

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 04:53 PM

The urn idea is not without it's flaws, I admit. It is not consistent with the behavior of normal vampires as we know it.

However, we can all agree, that Valen is not normal.

The urn solution is not perfect, but I believe I've found a way to make it work from both a gameplay and plot perspective.

The urn is a major plot device in Valen's story so I can't take it out of the mod without a major rewrite of much of the core story; something I'm not keen on doing. <_<

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#33 LordKableNikon

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 04:06 PM

while the urn would be nice for gameplay balance, it doesn't really work with why this topic was brought up by TG Maestro.

First of all, she is a Vampire, and not a simple Zombie. The later would really die the FD if killed, because of his undead shell is destroyed. But since Valen is a Vampire, it seems absolutely nonsense, that she simply DIES after struck down. In the "Final Re-balancing" thread people keep talkin about she should remain as she is, because any change on her would make her differ from a normal Vampire. Now, I'm asking, what's the dealk this time? Her Final Death is everything, but realistic. Noemally she should turn into gaseous form, and flee the area to recover somewhere safe.
Here comes a little idea (as I recall, it was already mentioned somewhere): is it possible, that every time she "dies" (as she reaches 1 Hp), she would turn into gas and disappear. After this she would respawn in the graveyard district, for example in one of the tombs (this one should be Valens tomb). If the party would like to get her back, you would only need to go to the Graveyards and ask her to rejoin.
I think this would make her character more interesting, and would solve the annoyance of her FD.

An urn isn't any more how vampires work then dying normally. they can't reform as ashes, ashes are unstakeable and they would be comepletely immortal. imo a traditional cofin would fit better, that could be established in different cities but would give her a respawn point there. I could personally live w/ some final death instances.

Firstly did anyone realize inside the urn, the being may be unstakeable?
but what about holy water....
if the urn is stolen and is spoiled.... uh oh...! :bash:
so there are flaws one just has to look at the entire picture before commenting.

#34 -Guest_Necaradan_*-

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 07:27 PM

Wouldn't it just be much easier if Valen just died and greyed out like a normal NPC and then you can just cast a modified Animate dead scroll that removes her immunity to raise dead for one second and then raises her (instead of the rose animation you could use finger of death) she can then just regenerate under her own power

Then you wouldn't have to worry about going thru so much to get your party member back...you can't RP a dead character so get her back in there and the game can continue...

What about a vial of virgins blood to use on a (collectable?) pile of ashes...the only remains of a dead Valen

A Wish scroll should have the power to rebirth a vampire

#35 -Guest-

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 01:55 AM

Valen figurin:P

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#36 Togashi Renshi

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 03:48 PM

Firstly did anyone realize inside the urn, the being may be unstakeable?
but what about holy water....
if the urn is stolen and is spoiled.... uh oh...!    :bash:
so there are flaws one just has to look at the entire picture before commenting.

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Oof! Pain for the Valen. I can see it now: Holy Vampire Dust Soup. Mmmm, tasty. ^_^

#37 -Morken-

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 05:04 AM

I dislike the current gaseous form implementation.

Firstly, it basically halves her stamina as a fighter. In some battles, all it takes is a flamestrike or backstab and she is out of it, while the rest of the party is running around in circles till she returns.

Secondly I find it buggy. Recently I exported her, imported her in a new single player game as the protagonist, and she ran into improved tactics illych.
She got bashed to half life (about 35), gassed, and while gassed, came back, got bashed below halfway again, gassed again, Illych regained his 'classic blunder' and somehow blundered her while purple circled. Somehow it mustve bugged her up because when she was almost healed to solidity again, he could WOUND her but she couldn't do a thing, not move or fight.
I think, this blunder may have had something to do with the fatigue+ slow of the blunder effect on her while gassed.

It is cruddy because, even without bugs, the gas form is NOT immune to all damage types and she cant move at all. I'd rather you just let vamps become a bat with 1 hp when they 'die'.

#38 -Morken-

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 06:58 AM

I mean, what the gas form does is make her very likely to die the final death in some situations (fire damage nearby and she cant move as a gas) and totally invulnerable in other situations (standing in front of a typical melee thug).

What happens is game manipulators with technical knowledge of the game know exactly where she can be left in gas blocking some doorway (and when she can't be safely left as a gas).

Monsters have a facination of the gas and will gladly tank it.

Anyway, I think there must be a better way.

#39 -Morken-

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 07:11 AM

See, monsters like trolls can only be killed in a certain way.

The player can adjust to them by learning.

Valen, and her gas second form is like a troll and can only be killed in certain ways.

You CANNOT put the monster AI in such a position because they don't learn and it just shows them up as dumb which destroys the believability aspect.

Ive just put Valen (as protagonist) versus the tactics Illych and watched her get gassed, come back for 1 hit before returning to gas etc etc.

It is bad to watch the epic villains lose to such cheese.