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#1 SConrad

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 06:17 PM

I wish people would stop glorifying David Gaider. It's not that I don't appreciate his contributions to the modding community, but that's not reason enough to deify him. The only reason he's a name is because he's "accessible," but that's about it.

Gaider wasn't at all involved in BG and TotSC (which in my opinion was awesome), he played a minor role in SoA (which I thought was good) and a larger role in ToB (which I thought sucked) - so go figure. I consider Ascension to be okay, but a bit hyped because of his involvement. NWN and its expansions were okay, too, but not excellent. I felt Carth was a very generic and stereotypical NPC in KotOR. I haven't seen enough of Dragon Age to be able to form any opinion yet.

None of the above warrants his status as the "Game Designing God" I sometimes see him referred to as being.

And if you look at some of his writing, you'll notice that it's medicore at best (not to mention this Posted Image). Numerous people in our community write ten times better.

Really, give credit where it's due. If you want a game designer to praise, go take a look at Chris Avellone over at Obsidian. PS:T is so much better than anything Gaider's ever had his hands in.

For the sake of discussion; what are your opinions?

Edited by SConrad, 05 May 2007 - 02:38 AM.

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#2 Bookwyrme

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 07:27 PM

Just out of curiosity, what brought this up? I mean, why now?

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#3 SConrad

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 07:41 PM

I've been holding it in for a long time, clenching my teeth every time someone exalts him.

Final straw was this, I think. I mean... c'mon. Giving him credit for a character in a game he wasn't even involved in?

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#4 Kaeloree

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 07:42 PM

*coughs* I had nothing to do with it! :unsure: ;)

#5 GeN1e

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 08:12 PM

Gaider be praised! Death to the disbeliever!

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#6 Azazello

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 10:01 PM

Do not question the Matron Gaider.
Victory for the Spider Gaider!
In the name of Gaider, we fight!
To walk apart from House and Gaider is to walk into the grave.
The path to supremacy for a male lies either in the bedchamber or the books of the mages.
:blink:

#7 SConrad

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 10:57 PM

I just lost a bit of respect for you, Azazello.

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#8 Cuv

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 11:18 PM

Well then.... not sure what to say to this.

I can see where you are coming from, but I liked most of ToB... especially Amkethran.

As for Ascension ( looks for a suitable smilie) to your comments ---> :new_bottom: LOL

That was the best thing that I was ever involved in. Quitch wrote the Bhodi dialog, I wrote the Balthazar epilogue and helped with some of that dialogue and both joinable ideas. Dave wrote the Solar and Mel. KR, Xyx and Spork wrote sweet scripts. The core story came from the ideas of the community at the time to resurrect The Five, with input and additions by the team. I personally thought it greatly enhanced the entire expansion of ToB (which admittedly wasn't that hard to do), but what it did do was round out the saga rather nicely... but I am biased. Plus it gave us all more scripts, areas, animations and other resources to cannibalize.

Lose respect for me too if you will... I don't revere him as a diety, but he certainly gave me an opportunity that no other designers would ever give. So yeah, I like the guy.

:cheers:

Cuv

#9 SConrad

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 11:36 PM

That was the best thing that I was ever involved in. Quitch wrote the Bhodi dialog, I wrote the Balthazar epilogue and helped with some of that dialogue and both joinable ideas. Dave wrote the Solar and Mel. KR, Xyx and Spork wrote sweet scripts. The core story came from the ideas of the community at the time to resurrect The Five, with input and additions by the team. I personally thought it greatly enhanced the entire expansion of ToB (which admittedly wasn't that hard to do), but what it did do was round out the saga rather nicely... but I am biased. Plus it gave us all more scripts, areas, animations and other resources to cannibalize.

Actually, that was part of my point (and I should have clarified that). Gaider is commonly referred to as the "author of Ascension", which isn't true. The people you talked about did a lot, too.

I didn't say it was a bad mod - I said it was hyped because he had his name on it. And that, I don't like. A mod should be judged because of its contents, not because one of the (commonplace) game developers was involved in creating it.

Lose respect for me too if you will... I don't revere him as a diety, but he certainly gave me an opportunity that no other designers would ever give. So yeah, I like the guy.

And that's why I said the reason he's so well-liked is because he's accessible in a way other developers aren't. But that doesn't change that he's not that good and that I think he shouldn't be revered as highly as he is in many people's eyes.

My respect for you hasn't changed at all, Cuv. You posted your opinions and experiences, and that's one thing. Doing nothing to contribute to the discussion by trying to be funny is another thing completely - and that's what I lose respect for.

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#10 Cuv

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 11:44 PM

My respect for you hasn't changed at all, Cuv. You posted your opinions and experiences, and that's one thing. Doing nothing to contribute to the discussion by trying to be funny is another thing completely - and that's what I lose respect for.


Fair enough, I concede all of your points. :doh:

Cheers again :cheers:

Cuv

#11 GeN1e

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 12:04 AM

I didn't say it was a bad mod - I said it was hyped because he had his name on it. And that, I don't like. A mod should be judged because of its contents, not because one of the (commonplace) game developers was involved in creating it.

When I got Asc for the first time I had absolutely no idea who that Gaider person was. And I judge Asc exactly by it's content, Balthazar part to be precise. That's the reason why the only time I played Tob without Asc was the first runthrough.

PS

Victory for the Spider Gaider!

+1

Edited by GeN1e, 05 May 2007 - 12:06 AM.

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#12 Azkyroth

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 01:48 AM

Doing nothing to contribute to the discussion by trying to be funny is another thing completely - and that's what I lose respect for.



....

Dude, you helped make the Jerry Zinger show. Don't tell us efforts that only add humor are worthless. O.o

And yeah, I find abject hero worship as tawdry as the next demon kooshball, but I'm not entirely sure why you threw this out.
"Tyranny is a quiet thing at first, a prim and proper lady pursing her lips and shaking her head disapprovingly, asking, well what were you doing (wearing that dress, walking home at that hour, expressing those inappropriate thoughts) anyway? It's subtle and insidious, disguised as reasonable precautions which become more and more oppressive over time, until our lives are defined by the things we must avoid. She's easy enough to agree with, after all, she's only trying to help -- and yet she's one of the most dangerous influences we face, because if she prevails, it puts the raping, robbing, axe-wielding madmen of the world in complete control. Eventually they'll barely need to wield a thing, all they'll have to do is leer menacingly and we fall all over ourselves trying to placate them." -godlizard

#13 the bigg

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 01:51 AM

Doing nothing to contribute to the discussion by trying to be funny is another thing completely - and that's what I lose respect for.

Does that mean that out of 300,000 posts at SHS, over 290,000 lower your respect for their author :) ?

Obviously, I usually even refuse to judge a mod if I believe the \(author\|communities the author is associated with\|hosting community\) sucks, so I'm not the best person to talk about 'don't judge a book by the cover author'.

My opinion of Ascension is as follows:

cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog die reload
cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog die reload
cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog die reload
cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog die reload
cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y die
cutscene dialog cutscene dialog cutscene dialog ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-y ctrl-r ctrl-y ctrl-y cutscene dialog epilogues
cd /media/hda1/bg2 && weinstall ascension --uninstall


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#14 SConrad

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 01:56 AM

Dude, you helped make the Jerry Zinger show. Don't tell us efforts that only add humor are worthless. O.o

I didn't create a joke mod in a middle of a discussion - or in the middle of the attempts of creating one.

Developing a mod for comic relief and at the same time expanding new borders in IE modding is quite different from being a wise ass in a forum thread. Don't mix the two.

And yeah, I find abject hero worship as tawdry as the next demon kooshball, but I'm not entirely sure why you threw this out.

I explained that previously.

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#15 SConrad

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 02:03 AM

Does that mean that out of 300,000 posts at SHS, over 290,000 lower your respect for their author :) ?

Whenever someone attempts to be funny in a way that does nothing to the discussion I'm trying to create, then yes, my respect for him or her is lowered. They take a shot at the topic I started, and I don't find that very humorous.

This not a spam thread for random nonsense. And this is not the Rec Room.

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#16 Azkyroth

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 02:23 AM

I explained that previously.


There is an air of randomness about this post that your explanation did not, in my view, dissipate. Perhaps I should rephrase; what goal are you seeking to accomplish?

The phrasing of your initial post didn't really suggest an "attempt to create discussion" and it's entirely possible that some of the smartass remarks may have originated in the posters behind them mistaking the initial post for self-indulgent crankiness, rather than as a serious debate to be approached as such. :/
"Tyranny is a quiet thing at first, a prim and proper lady pursing her lips and shaking her head disapprovingly, asking, well what were you doing (wearing that dress, walking home at that hour, expressing those inappropriate thoughts) anyway? It's subtle and insidious, disguised as reasonable precautions which become more and more oppressive over time, until our lives are defined by the things we must avoid. She's easy enough to agree with, after all, she's only trying to help -- and yet she's one of the most dangerous influences we face, because if she prevails, it puts the raping, robbing, axe-wielding madmen of the world in complete control. Eventually they'll barely need to wield a thing, all they'll have to do is leer menacingly and we fall all over ourselves trying to placate them." -godlizard

#17 SConrad

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 02:36 AM

There is an air of randomness about this post that your explanation did not, in my view, dissipate.

Uhm, okay.

Let's put it this way: My views about David Gaider have been brewing inside of my mind for quite some time now. The more David Gaider-praising I see, the more irritated I become. I've been discussing this with some of my friends for very long, and I finally decided to bring it out in the open. The final straw was when K'aeloree posted the post I linked to previously.

Does that explain it?

Perhaps I should rephrase; what goal are you seeking to accomplish?

Preferably a discontinuation of the Gaider-glorification, but I'll settle with a discussion about it.

The phrasing of your initial post didn't really suggest an "attempt to create discussion" and it's entirely possible that some of the smartass remarks may have originated in the posters behind them mistaking the initial post for self-indulgent crankiness, rather than as a serious debate to be approached as such. :/

Well, some got it and some apparently didn't. My bad for not being clear enough; original post edited for clarification.

(And being called self-indulgent and cranky isn't my idea of fun, either.)

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#18 Tassadar88

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 02:49 AM

BGI and TOtSC WERE great, period. Hero worship can sometimes be countreproductive, affirmative. As funny comments can be too, true.
But as the rest of the posts went, with no offence towards you, SConrad, I think that Azkyroth is not at fault here. When I now looked through the IE modding discussion, most of it was about making mods, or modding in general, and from your first post, I thought it more like belonging in the RecRoom by its contents. And there the few lines would have passed unnoticed, no? Like topic, like posts...
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#19 SConrad

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 03:00 AM

BGI and TOtSC WERE great, period.

Yes, I agree - and Gaider had nothing to do with those. ;)

no offence towards you, SConrad

None taken.

When I now looked through the IE modding discussion, most of it was about making mods, or modding in general, and from your first post, I thought it more like belonging in the RecRoom by its contents.

I would personally say that the topic about David Gaider's status belongs right here (or in the Modders' Room, as this forum was called a couple of hours ago), since it touches the modding community (where Gaider has his status), mods (Ascension) and modders (since they usually are the ones who praise him).

Typically, the Modders' Room has always been used for mod announcement and discussion about mods, correct, but also about discussion of the modding community itself. Although it has not been a very common subject of discussion lately, it still fits the scope of this forum - or at least what the forum originally was intended for.

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#20 Chevalier

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 03:21 AM

SConrad,

What's the purpose of this post? Why tear down someone who I don't think has done you any harm? Do people overly praise him? Maybe? What harm does it do? Hero's mostly don't live up to their reputations. I can see you frustration about this, but why do it in public? Why don't you get a punching bag and put his photo on it and work out your anger? How does this help IE Modding, SHS or the people who come here?

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