40 replies to this topic

[berelinde]

v3 however, had a few issues, though...

[Kulyok]

No, I mean that both Xan and Tiax' first releases were bug-free, and I think it is humanly possible to do this for any BG2 mod in existence, especially if the project is being written and coded by one person(size doesn't matter - a number of writers/coders does, from my experience). A typo or a wrong state? Sure, and more than one, but nothing game-breaking or detracting.

(Or did you mean by issues the fact that if the player exhausted all Xan-initiated flirts in v3, they would no longer be able to see player-initiated flirts in ToB, even though it's been corrected in the new version one week after it's been reported? If so, sorry - um, no, I'm really not perfect).


I think to me, a 'beta' or 'alpha' tag means 'I am sorry, but the mod hasn't been thoroughly tested. I want to share it with you, but play at your risk.' I think a closed beta is a way to avoid that, or minimize the issues, so that the message would be: 'Twenty people played through the mod, and all issues they've found have been corrected. Enjoy.' Or, as it was in case with Xan/Tiax 'I've done everything in my power to make this mod as stable as possible, and I think I have succeeded. Here you go.'

[berelinde]

A surprising number of "bug reports" are nothing more than typos/wrong states. And Xan v1 did have that neverending dialogue loop after he and the PC broke up. In the dialogue where he and the PC reminisce about the past, and then chose the PC response that had mention of nudity, it looped back into the same state, so you couldn't see what he said in response.

[Kulyok]

I'm afraid I have the files in front of me, and neither was there a loop in v1(in v1 files), nor do I see a state looping in the 'past' dialogue(in v5 files, since it wasn't present in v1); all states seem to point whenever they should - please, in case I have misunderstood, do report anything you see in Xan forum, I'd be very grateful.

There are typos and wrong states, I agree. I think the number of them makes all the difference - and more often than not, a Beta/Alpha tag implies there are even more. I am more concerned with CTD/romance stopping/crucial lovetalks not triggering/that sort of thing than typos, however. Though, of course, if the number of typos and typos/errors becomes overwhelming, I press the letter 'U' - and if I think I'll ever play the mod again, I post the bugs at the mod's forum.

What does bug me, though, is the first experience. With Kivan and BG1 NPC open betas, I was happy to play from the beginning to the end, despite beta tags. With some other open betas, the amount of issues became overwhelming.

[berelinde]

It's probably still there, then. If I ever have the time, I might look for it. I don't play the romance anymore, or indeed play much at all, so a report that hasn't got a searchable quote in it is darned near impossible to find.

[Sir BillyBob]

Awesome! I have never been so lucky.

[Solaufein]

I prefer full 1.x versions and up. There have been times where I have been tempted to release a beta though.

[Ankhes]

I voted for open alpha because I want to be able to play the mods before I die of old age. In particular I have waited for years (as have others) for the Solaufein flirt pack and I want to play it now. I am only speaking for myself but at this point I don't even mind a typo or two. I know you mind Kulyok ; ) but that is why I said I am only speaking for myself!

So all in all I say give us the option of whether we want to download and play it or not.

[berelinde]

Ankhes, you rock. Talk to Jolyth. I'm sure she can hook you up.

[Ankhes]

Ankhes, you rock. Talk to Jolyth. I'm sure she can hook you up.

Heh, thanks! I think I'll go and check with her! (BTW your Laran in RE is sooooo wonderful! Gives Gavin a run for his money!)

Oh yeah for the topic....yeah...open alphas all the way!

[Kulyok]

Oh yeah for the topic....yeah...open alphas all the way!

In RE's open alpha you'd get stuck in that room with all your companions, without Laran and without a way out, mind.

[Ankhes]

Oh yeah for the topic....yeah...open alphas all the way!

In RE's open alpha you'd get stuck in that room with all your companions, without Laran and without a way out, mind.

Well crud. If it were only me and Laran with no way out... But I can dream!

[berelinde]

Excuse me, but I know for a fact that cutscene worked. I spent 6 hours troubleshooting that cutscene to make sure it worked, because during private testing on my own machine, that is exactly what happened. Let me assure you, the version I sent did not have that error. It had other problems if a Bhaalspawn dream happend, but the PC moved with Laran, and the party stayed put.

Edit: of course, the encounter with Aime didn't happen if the PC ran away from her, but that's another story. And I would have gotten this post off before your reply, but my boss has been standing over my shoulder all day. Grrrr! Can't even defend my own coding on company time.

Edited by berelinde, 31 July 2007 - 11:32 AM.

[Kulyok]

Excuse me, but I know for a fact that cutscene worked. I spent 6 hours troubleshooting that cutscene to make sure it worked, because during private testing on my own machine, that is exactly what happened. Let me assure you, the version I sent did not have that error. It had other problems if a Bhaalspawn dream happend, but the PC moved with Laran, and the party stayed put.

There was an error, and you yourself helped fix it.

[berelinde]

That was the Bhaalspawn dream thing, yes. But you make it sound like every PC would be left stranded. The funny thing about that was that if the player used the "Faster Cutscenes and Dreams" component of BG2 Tweaks, it didn't happen even if there was a Bhaalspawn dream, because there's no area change. The save I used for testing had that dream crop up every time, but I never noticed, because I've got that component installed. It was kind of eerie having a romantic encounter and then being disturbed by a Bhaalspawn dream, but in a way, it reinforced the transience of the affair. After all, life goes on, even if the PC is otherwise occupied. But yes, it did need to be changed, because not everyone uses that component of BG2 Tweaks.

Which, in a way, supports my argument that it's important to test a mod on a wide variety of installs. Because individual installations can and do either aggravate or supress bugs. Had the pool of testers been restricted to a smaller number of players, it's possible that mod conflicts, or enhancements, in this case, since another mod actually served to supress a bug, might not have been caught during beta testing. It's possible that more conflicts with other mods will turn up, even now. After all, the Edwin encounter wasn't tested on a BGT installation, so that encounter might run in BG1. That might be considered a bug.

[Kulyok]

Which, in a way, supports my argument that it's important to test a mod on a wide variety of installs. Because individual installations can and do either aggravate or supress bugs. Had the pool of testers been restricted to a smaller number of players, it's possible that mod conflicts, or enhancements, in this case, since another mod actually served to supress a bug, might not have been caught during beta testing.

Ah, but there is an important difference: a small pool of testers(closed beta) will discover a larger amount of bugs than if there were no testers at all(open beta). An eager-to-play user who grabs an open beta is at a disadvantage here.

Incidentally, I think it is never too late to remove a buggy beta from a download and return to polishing it, as it appears to be the case... well, for example, with Corthala Romantique. I think a very wise decision was made in this regard.

[berelinde]

You've got your mind made up, so I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

There will be bugs reported in RE, I'm sure, because it wasn't tested on installations that include every possible combination of mods. As I said, Edwin might well do his bit in BG1, because it wasn't tested on BGT from the start of BG1. If the encounter runs anyway, is is a bug? Since the stated intention of the mod was BG2 only, then yes, an encounter taking place in BG1 is not exactly desired behavior. So it's a bug.

There will always be vocal supporters of both sides of the equation. No, I'm not advocating releasing an untested mod on the unsuspecting public. Nor am I advocating labeling a mod as version 1 when it's still really a beta. I am advocating making a clearly labeled beta avaialable to any and all interested parties. It makes little difference to me whether this is done from a publicly disclosed download location or via PM communication, especially if you're going to give the link to anyone who asks, anyway. I've yet to hear of someone volunteering to play a beta that was refused.

To me, a beta label means "I think I got them all, but no guarantees that you won't find any."

Enough people have posted that they won't play a beta to support the stance that players do understand that a beta is not in its finished form, even if it is available for public download. No one is forcing anyone to download and play anything.

My chief concern is that a mod might lose a beta label before it's ready. Many modders feel pressure to release their mods. Ambition is part of the human condition. For an established modder, there isn't necessarily that pressure, because there are usually plenty of people willing to give their product a try, but for a new, unknown modder, it's a lot more intimidating. For the sake of the players who would download that mod, I would rather see someone release a mod as a beta than slap a version 1 on it just to get it out the door.

[Kulyok]

There will be bugs reported in RE, I'm sure, because it wasn't tested on installations that include every possible combination of mods.

Sure. The point is not "bug-free" versus "not bug-free". The point is "tested thoroughly" versus "not really".

Since the stated intention of the mod was BG2 only, then yes, an encounter taking place in BG1 is not exactly desired behavior. So it's a bug.

Uh-huh. Banter Pack and all these NPC mods that do not have an EndOfBG check must be full of bugs, then.

Edited by Kulyok, 01 August 2007 - 03:10 AM.

[berelinde]

You've got your mind made up, so I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

<snip>

My chief concern is that a mod might lose a beta label before it's ready. Many modders feel pressure to release their mods.... For the sake of the players who would download that mod, I would rather see someone release a mod as a beta than slap a version 1 on it just to get it out the door.

I'm not sure I'm expressing my point clearly enough. I don't want to see someone label something as a version 1 when it's really still a beta. If making betas publicly available is a means to this end, then I am all for it.

If anything, I'm advocating witholding that version 1 label for as long as it takes to make good and sure there are no surprises.

Uh-huh. Banter Pack and all these NPC mods that do not have an EndOfBG check must be full of bugs, then.

Not unless the modder/editor stated clearly in the readme or the forum that they were only intended for BG2. If no statement to that effect was made, there isn't any indication that this isn't intended behavior.

Edited by berelinde, 01 August 2007 - 03:19 AM.

[Rastor]

I voted for open alpha because I want to be able to play the mods before I die of old age. In particular I have waited for years (as have others) for the Solaufein flirt pack and I want to play it now. I am only speaking for myself but at this point I don't even mind a typo or two. I know you mind Kulyok ; ) but that is why I said I am only speaking for myself!

There's been a beta of that one available on the RPGD server for quite some time now, although it's a very early beta and a lot of changes have been made since then so it's not going to be anything like the mod that will be released shortly.

I have yet to find any mod that has absolutely no bugs in it on the first public release. Unless you have a couple hundred beta testers, there's no real way to catch everything during a closed beta. For that reason, I am a pretty big fan of public betas. As long as you make it clear to any potential downloader that it is a beta release, then I'm comfortable releasing it.

My usual development is this:
- Closed alpha
- Closed beta
- Public beta
- Final version

I do tend to leave mods with a beta tag for quite a bit longer than most modders would, despite most of the bugs being fixed pretty quickly - at least partly because I don't really believe that anything can be perfect (BG2 has bugs, after all!)

I generally don't download public betas of mods, though, unless it's something I've been waiting on for a long time (Tiefling sisters - if that's ever going to be released).