15 replies to this topic

[bigmoshi]

Hi may I know the mirror link for BGT1.05a? Thx

regards

[Ascension64]

Hi may I know the mirror link for BGT1.05a? Thx

regards

There is a whole stack of them at http://www.shsforums...showtopic=23549. Some are probably outdated and some work only for specific regions, though.

[bigmoshi]

Hi may I know the mirror link for BGT1.05a? Thx

regards

There is a whole stack of them at http://www.shsforums...showtopic=23549. Some are probably outdated and some work only for specific regions, though.

Cool. I found it at http://dragonshoard....load/bgt-weidu/

Thanks 4 ur help

[Ascension64]

Keep in mind that there is most likely not going to be a permanent mirror for older versions. BWL will probably update at some stage. Same with the other mirrors.

[bigmoshi]

Keep in mind that there is most likely not going to be a permanent mirror for older versions. BWL will probably update at some stage. Same with the other mirrors.

Hmm. Looks like that will be a challenge. A simple real-time update feature for an auto-installation would solve part of the problem. Having a authorised mirror would really be an issue. Will think abt it. Thanks.

[Ascension64]

I'm not exactly sure how your program works, but I am quite certain that compatibility of BGT versus other mods won't change (rather, most compatibility changes are the other mod changing to adapt to BGT) and it should be safe to instantly use newer versions without great problem in a mega-install.

[bigmoshi]

I'm not exactly sure how your program works, but I am quite certain that compatibility of BGT versus other mods won't change (rather, most compatibility changes are the other mod changing to adapt to BGT) and it should be safe to instantly use newer versions without great problem in a mega-install.

Although i'm not a modder per se, but i took a peek at your code. I was very impressed, its very neatly outlined, so I'm sure your newer versions wont have much trouble resolving compatibility issues, if any at all.

What im concerned with is the bug reporting process. ie. it wont be easy to keep track of bugs on a consistent platform. For eg. if this guy A plays SMM v1.21 and the debugger is playing v1.5. It would be hard to manage bugs for that poor non-modding guy A. If I asked him to upgrade to v1.5, I'll have to ensure its compatible with his saved games, which is going to open up another can of worms.

There are three debugging strategies i'm thinking about:

(a) Either a more fluid approach to bug reporting is needed, with a proper online bug tracking management system.

(b) Or accept the fact that perhaps 80% of the reported bugs will commonly affect players regardless of installed versions. While 20% of them may spurious bugs affecting only certain combinations of the game.

© Continue with the current approach assuming that out of the mods used, most are stable and the update cycles have lengthened thus taking the risk that most of the mods will be mirrored somewhere. After say 6 months, then only another mega-mod version will be released.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Ascension64]

What im concerned with is the bug reporting process. ie. it wont be easy to keep track of bugs on a consistent platform. For eg. if this guy A plays SMM v1.21 and the debugger is playing v1.5. It would be hard to manage bugs for that poor non-modding guy A. If I asked him to upgrade to v1.5, I'll have to ensure its compatible with his saved games, which is going to open up another can of worms.

This is one of the most difficult problems that we have at the moment. I think most of these could actually have been avoided in the first place if modders were more active about compatibility. However, I understand that modding is a hobby, and although the quantity of mods for IE games is wimpy compared to that of Morrowind or Oblivion, for example, modders certainly do not have to take that onus.

(a) Either a more fluid approach to bug reporting is needed, with a proper online bug tracking management system.

The Wiki idea at the Big World Project thread was interesting. It is beneficial in that it centralises bug reports, but I have concerns about whether it will really be of any use if all the installs are different. Additionally, people may experience the same bug but describe in a slightly different way, which could end up a bit messy.

(b) Or accept the fact that perhaps 80% of the reported bugs will commonly affect players regardless of installed versions. While 20% of them may spurious bugs affecting only certain combinations of the game.

That might be true. Spurious bugs have surfaced from new versions of mods, but mainly due to new components or new things in a component. What seems to be more typical is that these bugs get squashed (in newer versions) after reports of mega-modification incompatibilities. So we might be able to draw on this knowledge when we try to work out what's wrong, except that we can't just tell people to upgrade to a newer version, because new things may break other things. In the case of multiple versions, unless the bug was specifically fixed, we can draw on common denominators between old and new versions.

© Continue with the current approach assuming that out of the mods used, most are stable and the update cycles have lengthened thus taking the risk that most of the mods will be mirrored somewhere. After say 6 months, then only another mega-mod version will be released.

Well, at least the 'base' mega-modification installation mods apart from BGT-WeiDU get updated once in a year. Well, at least King Diamond seems to be setting that trend with SoS, TDD, TS-BP, CtB, and RoT. The other mods, such as NeJ and BP need to be regarded with much more caution. The crux of the issue, however, seems to rest upon what other mods one decides to install, like SCS and BG1NPC among the more often updated mods, to Ascension and Tactics among the 'vintage' mods. The latter could be dealt with easily if you installed everything on top of each other and just patched what was wrong. Problems with more frequently updated mods are not amenable to this strategy. So, how long you can stick with a single mega-mod version depends on how many frequently updated mods you use, their eye for compatibility, and how frequently updated they are.

The suggested approach of sticking with a particular version of each mod may make life easier technically, but certainly not 'ethically', which has been discussed passionately in another thread. If you want to use older versions of mods in a mega-mod install, I don't have actually have an issue with setting up mirrors for them (will need to find a place to put them though). Vlad requested I put back up an older version of BGT to support NeJ. The only caveat is that I won't support them. That doesn't mean I won't support the mega-mod installation as a whole. I can't speak for anyone else's mods though.

[bigmoshi]

(a) Either a more fluid approach to bug reporting is needed, with a proper online bug tracking management system.

The Wiki idea at the Big World Project thread was interesting. It is beneficial in that it centralises bug reports, but I have concerns about whether it will really be of any use if all the installs are different. Additionally, people may experience the same bug but describe in a slightly different way, which could end up a bit messy.

Hmm. By insisting that the installed components are the same instead of customising it, we could tone down the problem as only versioning conflicts will occur. Back then, Black isle didn't publish variations of their game. They gave us only one version, and we accepted it didn't we?

I really appreciate the clarity in your response. That has straightened out and confirms some issues I had in mind. I'll print this to look over it carefully again. Based on your reply, perhaps its possible to could work another alternative solution for now:

Assuming the current mega-mod v1.21 can last till mid-08. I should be able to almost complete the entire BG1 series testing by then (by basing the installation on erebusant's work, I believe that I shouldn't be encountering unsolvable major glitches). Before I switch over the the BG2 saga, I can target a release after the 'base' mega mods are updated during the mid of the year (or least wait few wks/mths till they update). That way, mega-mod say v1.3 will have a more significant life-span of probably a year, ignoring the smaller updates.

The gist of the support plan would then be as such,

• From now - mid-08: Stick to mega-mod v1.21 - BG1 playable w/ ongoing support - BG2 playable w/ adhoc support
  
• Output now - mid-08: Verify via playing to ensure that the player can go through the entire BG1 with documented hitches (especially for quests). I promise there will be bugs, but as long as we can describe a continuous line/path from start - finish, its sufficient.
  
• From mid-08 - xx : Stick to mega-mod v1.3 - BG1 playable w/ documented support - BG2 playable w/ ongoing support. Documented support as in to have support based on the review of the documented hitches and see if they will be relevant with v1.3, i.e. having the new versions of base mega mods / mods installed. In addition, I should have a more elegant approach to auto-installation by then which would then make it less taxing to switch over to BG2.

Note: I do hope (unless proven necessary) to keep the installed components for v1.3 the same as v1.21. They should differ only because of version updates.

Hopefully, by the end of the year, that is assuming if time permits me, to have a proper documented proof via playing of a mega-mod version that is or at least almost stable.

Wouldn't it be fun if thousands of real players (ie. not modders) had a simple way to install all these wonderful mods. Perhaps this is erebusant's philosophy I'm talking about, not the biggest, but the cleanest fuss-free solution to a mega-mod.

Do let me know if you spot any glaring issues or if such a specific plan has been attempted before, else I'll kindly take it that such a plan is plausible. Thanks again.

Edited by bigmoshi, 27 December 2007 - 03:11 AM.

[Ascension64]

They gave us only one version, and we accepted it didn't we?

Unfortunately, the version number might be the same, but there are slight differences between different editions of the game. For example, BGT-WeiDU doesn't install correctly on the Atari Compilation.

Assuming the current mega-mod v1.21 can last till mid-08. I should be able to almost complete the entire BG1 series testing by then (by basing the installation on erebusant's work, I believe that I shouldn't be encountering unsolvable major glitches). Before I switch over the the BG2 saga, I can target a release after the 'base' mega mods are updated during the mid of the year (or least wait few wks/mths till they update). That way, mega-mod say v1.3 will have a more significant life-span of probably a year, ignoring the smaller updates.

Well, it seems to me that the smaller updates are causing the most problems at the moment, FR-RoV breaking Irenicus' Dungeon with BGT-WeiDU being the prime example. As such, the mega-mod is perhaps more focused on ironing out the problems with the smaller mods than the larger ones.

Nevertheless, mega-modification compatibility is really a specialisation within itself, and requires someone with proficiency in bug identification and fixing skills, where probably until recently no one has had sufficient expertise, interest, and time, to take that role.

The gist of the support plan would then be as such,

• From now - mid-08: Stick to mega-mod v1.21 - BG1 playable w/ ongoing support - BG2 playable w/ adhoc support
  
• Output now - mid-08: Verify via playing to ensure that the player can go through the entire BG1 with documented hitches (especially for quests). I promise there will be bugs, but as long as we can describe a continuous line/path from start - finish, its sufficient.
  
• From mid-08 - xx : Stick to mega-mod v1.3 - BG1 playable w/ documented support - BG2 playable w/ ongoing support. Documented support as in to have support based on the review of the documented hitches and see if they will be relevant with v1.3, i.e. having the new versions of base mega mods / mods installed. In addition, I should have a more elegant approach to auto-installation by then which would then make it less taxing to switch over to BG2.

Note: I do hope (unless proven necessary) to keep the installed components for v1.3 the same as v1.21. They should differ only because of version updates.

The plan looks fine ot me. Be sure to make the auto-installer as flexible as possible so that you don't need any massive re-writes once you update.

[bigmoshi]

They gave us only one version, and we accepted it didn't we?

Unfortunately, the version number might be the same, but there are slight differences between different editions of the game. For example, BGT-WeiDU doesn't install correctly on the Atari Compilation.

Ah, good point. I suspect though that the actual storyline, npcs, gameplay, kits, quest, dialogs etc probably wouldn't differ much.

Well, it seems to me that the smaller updates are causing the most problems at the moment, FR-RoV breaking Irenicus' Dungeon with BGT-WeiDU being the prime example. As such, the mega-mod is perhaps more focused on ironing out the problems with the smaller mods than the larger ones.

Noted, and will bear this in mind. Hope to ease the problems from the smaller mods by keeping the components consistent between the current installation & the next one. That could be one measure to increase the chances of suppressing conflicts.

Nevertheless, mega-modification compatibility is really a specialisation within itself, and requires someone with proficiency in bug identification and fixing skills, where probably until recently no one has had sufficient expertise, interest, and time, to take that role.

Agree with you, which is why the search is only looking for a usable mega-mod installation that can at least bring a non-modder from start to end without major complications, perhaps with a guide in mind. The strategy here is when two components conflict, the priority is to avoid the component totally rather than fix it with a patch, unless absolutely necessary. The worst thing to happen to a player is him reaching the end of the story, and realise that he cant complete it because of such and such.

The plan looks fine ot me. Be sure to make the auto-installer as flexible as possible so that you don't need any massive re-writes once you update.

Yes, I insist that the installer be configurable even as of today (lessons learnt from the past). In fact, even the message prompting and interfacing with the batch files are independent. I haven't done any technical docs to avoid confusing pple.

Thanks again Ascension64, your points have been really helpful.

Edited by bigmoshi, 27 December 2007 - 07:11 AM.

[Ascension64]

Ah, good point. I suspect though that the actual storyline, npcs, gameplay, kits, quest, dialogs etc probably wouldn't differ much.

I don't think so. The one case where something actually differs noticeably is the incorrect music of BG: The Original Saga vs 5CD+1CD BG:TotSC. However, it doesn't cease to annoy me when different languages of the same game, even when it is the same edition and version, have missing files, altered dialog.tlk, and other nonsensical inconsistencies that suggests to me that some naive dilletante other than BioWare made the superfluous changes.

[bigmoshi]

Ah, good point. I suspect though that the actual storyline, npcs, gameplay, kits, quest, dialogs etc probably wouldn't differ much.

I don't think so. The one case where something actually differs noticeably is the incorrect music of BG: The Original Saga vs 5CD+1CD BG:TotSC. However, it doesn't cease to annoy me when different languages of the same game, even when it is the same edition and version, have missing files, altered dialog.tlk, and other nonsensical inconsistencies that suggests to me that some naive dilletante other than BioWare made the superfluous changes.

Sorry I missed this ytd. I didn't realise that, in that case I have another issue. Or is it possible to make a conversion pack eg. to convert OrigSAGA into exact 5CD+1 BG:TOSC (which becomes an ultimate base) before installing mods, eg like using a file patching utility? Or do the weidu-mods take care of these such that it will automatically resolve conflicts between mod-components?

Thanks

Edited by bigmoshi, 29 December 2007 - 09:31 PM.

[Ascension64]

Well, ToS and 5+1CD haven't caused any issues with mods apart from BGT, so it really is my problem and that's it.

[bigmoshi]

Haha. Ok point noted. Thanks again

[bigmoshi]

... wrong post ... sry

Edited by bigmoshi, 01 January 2008 - 07:22 PM.