14 replies to this topic

[Zyraen]

Someone dropped a note by me that Finarfin is
1) Overpowered as a 1st Generation Elf (regardless of actual in game implementation) and that should not be done
2) Personality, being a peace loving wise-guy, so to speak his personality truly does not see him belonging in any conflict nor wanting to be there.
3) Over-representation - too many folks from the House Finarfin available to be in the party.
He's really not supposed to be there, he really shouldn't come along or be made available.

My own points were that
1) Personal Peeve. I felt the 3rd Brother (he is brother to Feanor and Fingolfin) had too little exposure in Silmarillion and wanted him to "flex" his muscle.
2) Sorcerer. He's the only character I felt suitable to be a Sorcerer - a real asset in Silmarillion since you can't rest in Battles, you don't want to quit a scenario and rest and then replay it which is what Mages would require
3) Personality - I feel he's hardly been developed much, I thought it'd be nice to breathe "life" into him as a personality, he doesn't strike me as a coward anyway. He's someone I imagine hard to get to join you, but he'd do it to set things like the timestream right, and not for selfish personal reasons.

That being said, what do you guys think?

Edited by Zyraen, 19 February 2008 - 01:15 AM.

[Riviera]

I like him.. and it is always nice when a character can be given more leg-room, so to speak.

Plus.. just because you love peace does not necessarily mean you flee from conflict. Many fight to ensure there *is* peace.

That's my two cents, in any case

[Choo Choo]

Finarfin never came with his brothers to Beleriand - he decided to stay in Valinor. That's reason alone for you to keep him out of it, I think.

[Alatariel]

Firstly, Riviera, the argument is actually a little bit more complex than this. Keeping Finarfin, Elros and Elrond out of it is what I advised, but I also proposed to put 3 other, more interesting - and appropriate - NPCs in their places. I will elaborate on this in the Silm forums, but for now I will quote imho the *main* reasons why Finarfin isn't the best choice:

* Firstly, we shouldn't meet him at all in the place we are supposed to meet him. He shouldn't be there at all!
* I think that Finrod represents this branch of the royal family well enough, AND I dislike the idea of having father&son in my party, for some reason, plus having a romance with the son while the father is standing few meters to the left. Scary. Plus, I actually would take the risk and call Findarato both a sorcerer and a more powerful character than his father. Period.
* Going with you at the given point is OC for Finarfin, imho. Any interested people I refer to "The Silmarillion"(Choo Choo seconds me here, I see)
* Finarfin, compared to other NPCs, simply belongs to another league. We can't have Feanaro or Fingolfin in the party, so why have him? To put in a possible Gary Stue in the party? Besides, Finarfin is the only one of the royal family to stay in Tirion and watch over the Noldor. I don't think he *would* join, he would rather ask his firstborn to act in his name (and we already get Finrod, so). Simply put, Finarfin has too many reasons to NOT be there (and curiously enough you agreed with me here, Zyraen, yet you still persist... ). AND he is historically to potent.
* The main reasons Zyraen wants to put him in are sentimental, unreasonable views and the fact he feels only Arafinwe could be the party's sorcerer - this view I don't share either but nevermind that - so, it is the technical issues > the eventual fascinating plot twists the other character in my mind would provide. Plus, sometimes the writer has to leave out the character he likes to make the work better (come on, even Rowling says as much! ;D)
* Some characters are just meant to be secondary ones. Silmarillion has already too many main characters as it is. I think that Arafinwe was designed as a background character, and he should remain one. Why force his development when it may cost us so much and doesn't really make sense anyway? his place is to have a happy and uneventful life in Aman and to rule the Noldor that remained. Somebody has to do it. The end I would rather develop his other sons; they are indeed underdeveloped and have a lot more action/roleplay potential than he.

As for Elrond&Elros -- I don't like the idea of altering their age by approximately 30 years, and going completely of canon, demonizing Maedhros&Maglor; while the mod is AU by definition, these parts steal a little bit of ME's charm, the bit which for me is irreplaceable.

And all of this is tied to another part of the plot (The Awakening) to which I will propose an alternative solution as well, so the Finarfin issue is actually a petal in a large, multicolored flower. And I don't think that changing some of the first concepts is a bad idea -- just look how BG2 has changed from the first draft to the final product! Some of the changes were actually positive, too ;>.

I was trying to be as non-spoilerish as I could, Zyraen. If you would like later on to repost some of my ideas in the public forums, that's your call. Hope you don't mind me commenting at all, too. After all... You asked for it;p.

Edited by Alatariel, 19 February 2008 - 05:29 AM.

[Zyraen]

As for Elrond&Elros -- I don't like the idea of altering their age by approximately 30 years, and going completely of canon, demonizing Maedhros&Maglor; while the mod is AU by definition, these parts steal a little bit of ME's charm, the bit which for me is irreplaceable.

I'd create a separate topic on these 2. Personally I don't like it either, but its a design choice I had to make to not alienate LotR fans completely. That was mentioned before as well.

Besides, there is no demonising of Maedhros & Maglor. They are still very tragic and human characters Even if they are the enemies, they will still exhibit various tendencies. As for the E&E plot, just to let you know in what I plan, they do still capture E&E and they do still take care of them.

That being said, I still feel uncomfortable at times putting them in, but I've chosen to turn a blind eye aside.

Perhaps you should think of it this way - if you do NOT know Silmarillion AT ALL, would it be a serious or noticeable problem from a gameplay perspective? I think that's an approach you've hardly, if ever, used regarding this project.

That's what I'll say regarding E&E. I'll put a separate reply for Finarfin.

[Alatariel]

For the LOTR fans Elrond isn't all that important figure -- only a background character that would make an appearance anyway, only as a child. So. if you put Legolas here... Than you could be described as making commercial efford for the sake of Lort (female) fans <lol>

[Zyraen]

and curiously enough you agreed with me here, Zyraen, yet you still persist...

Actually I agreed with you because I was actually listening to you in conversation ^^;; but it seems you weren't exactly listening to what I had to tell you.

Firstly, we shouldn't meet him at all in the place we are supposed to meet him. He shouldn't be there at all

Well Finarfin does show up at Alqualonde (eventually) and he is also the only one isolated at the end of it, for a possible approach. I don't see how it would be possible to approach anyone else in that scenario, given that practically everyone survived AND continued to stay with the main host.

I dislike the idea of having father&son in my party, for some reason, plus having a romance with the son while the father is standing few meters to the left

This you didn't mention this in conversation Its a cute point, and probably quite valid for humans, but I don't think Elves really mind that much. Maybe make Finrod unromanceable around his dad? lol. Or a "chaste" romance I can see that with the still-Amarie Finrod lol. Actually I like the idea of having close friends/relations in the same party (like Illuvi-Imari, Finarfin-Finrod, Beleg-Turin, and in my original concept, Gharin-Khorin) It makes for far more interesting banters than BG2, with plenty of character development.

* Finarfin, compared to other NPCs, simply belongs to another league. We can't have Feanaro or Fingolfin in the party, so why have him?

Unlike Vampires in VtM, there doesn't seem to be an explicit mention that elves are powerful based on Generation. Certainly we also do know that Finrod was a far cry waaaay above Orodreth Angrod Aegnor and Galadriel. Feanor and Fingolfin have more than demonstrated their party-unbalancing abilities in the storyline itself ; Finarfin has never. Besides, I don't intend to make him Mary-Sueish, and a pure magic user has very little to crow about Silmarillion in terms of long-lived usefulness.

I understand your thoughts on the other characters, and I think you neglected to mention my notes - that Maglor was fairly alive and having an ACTIVE part in history, not to mention AGAINST the party ; Aredhel really was a nobody and I'm not likely to create a scenario out of a non-event to get her ; Ereinon/Gil-galad was alive and had a concurrent role of his own to play (and I do dislike him lol)

* Going with you at the given point is OC for Finarfin, imho

You never even asked nor bothered to listen if I would mention, how I was going to make him join. You think it would be easy ? Not knowing anything about the plan, how would you say its OC? And given how undefined he is as a character, how would we know he's OC?

Simply put, Finarfin has too many reasons to NOT be there (and curiously enough you agreed with me here, Zyraen, yet you still persist... ).

The only thing I saw and acnknowledged is his personality, and that can be worked around using a hard-to-join and joins-for-greater-good approach. The other reason is that he does NOT die (unlike the other timestream joinables), but similar (and more importantly) as compared to all of them, he does NOT have ANY significant active role to play in Silmarillion thereafter.

Some characters are just meant to be secondary ones... I would rather develop his other sons; they are indeed underdeveloped...

Lol you're absolutely right. That would apply to Beleg, Mablung, Finarfin, and also to Maglor Caranthir Amrod Amras, and Finarfin's sons Orodreth Angrod Aegnor. Finarfin is just another character to choose out of all these there's no particular reason aye/nay with respect to this line of logic.

That being said, I'm quite OK with removing Finarfin without replacing him. A Pure Mage is really not necessary for Silmarillion, and might be a huge liability in practice. Alternatively I might make Kyra a Sorceress, but frankly I think she'd be ... REALLY Mary-sueish (those with forum access know why)

[Alatariel]

Everything you say is valid besides one point - I do listen to what you have to say;) However I am not here to applaud to everything you say, rather provide criticism, which I am *trying* to make constructive. If at some point I seem a little emotional it is because, as you have noticed, I do feel strongly about the Silmarillion, especially about some particular characters. And if you ask Noctalys, I am more of an editor than an admirer... All the time: do that, look out for that, that isn't good and fix that <lol> Still, she hasn't killed me off yet:>.

[Riviera]

Okay, I haven't read much of the Silmarillion, so I didn't know all that. Sorry. ;

The only obstacle I can see is what has been brought up about where he'd be at that time, his motivation for being there instead of being where the PC is.

Valinor, unless I miss my guess (please clarify if I'm wrong) is like Tolkien's version of Evermeet, right?

Is there any way to contact it in a reliable and quick manner?

Since the mere presence of the party is non-canon, could it be that the changes that brought them there also effected this somehow?

I'm basically feeling things out and shooting out possibilities right now.

[Choo Choo]

Yeah. Evermeet and Valinor is much the same, and I also compare Myth Drannor with Gondolin. *shrug*

[Zyraen]

I sometimes wonder how much of the timestream concept is really understood ^^;

=============

Since the entire timestream adventure is independant of real time, no one would notice a thing. As far as anyone else in Valinor would know, Finarfin went to the dockside to watch his kinsfolk sail away in ships.

( During this period of time, you contact him, assume he agrees to help out, he goes with you and completes all 12 scenarios and eventually you guys return to your own time. Finarfin also returns to HIS own time )

Finarfin leaves the dockside, to his wife's side and apologises to the Valar on behalf of the remnant of his people, begging pardon of the Gods. After that he helps to govern what's left of the Noldor and probably help to rebuild Alqualonde.

About 530 plus years pass by. The Havens (where you are at) is destroyed (that's why Finarfin will miss the Fall of the Havens), and Elwing jumps into the sea. Elwing is turned into a seabird by Ulmo Valar of the Seas, and with the Silmaril on her breast, she flies to guide Earendil to Valinor. Earendil arrives at Valinor ad pleads with the Valar, who are moved to Pity and muster their armies for the assault on Middle-Earth, later years to be known as the War of the Wrath. Finarfin probably also helps prepare the Noldor (by now probably more numerous) for war, and then sails to Middle-Earth across the Great Sea with the Host of the Valar.

Finarfin arrives in Middle-Earth with the Host of the Valar. (if he joined you earlier) Finarfin meets you again and agrees to join the frontlines by your side once more, trusting in your leadership, to ensure that the War of the Wrath concludes as it should.

To those who know Silmarillion, is this sequence in ANY way a disruption of Canon Silmarillion? In the book, as far as I know as well, we know that Finarfin did in fact help to rally the Noldor under his banner in the War of the Wrath. However he is not mentioned in any of the actual fighting, so his role could be anything be it directing from behind lines, or fighting on the frontlines.

[Choo Choo]

Yes, that sounds much more likely - I wrongly thought you'd make him leave Valinor together with his brothers. Nevermind what I've said so far, here!

[Zyraen]

Anymore notes on Finarfin's Presence ?

[Zyraen]

Seems quiet. So tentatively Finarfin is off the list. If there are any objections, just post to this thread before I lock it in a few days, hee.

[Zyraen]

Sigh.. farewell noble elf!