42 replies to this topic

[Zyraen]

Edit : Put in the Latest Ideas... the original topic is quoted below.

Here's what I have in mind so far

1) Illasera
basically you can jump to Pocketplane without fighting her (to gather your party first)
she holds Elhan hostage and you can roleplay accordingly whether or not to surrender yourself for him.
Repercussions include Huge Rep loss if Elhan dies, Elhan being one way if you saved him but did not surrender yourself for him, and Elhan being totally... amazed... if you actually surrendered yourself (for a while) to save him

2) Gromnir & Yaga Shura
arriving in Saradush, Melissan will already tell you roughly about Yaga Shura. You can then do the 2 Temples or Saradush.
you'll be able to ally with Gromnir against Yaga Shura, or vice versa.
to audience with Gromnir you'll need to help out his barracks guys (instead of slaughtering them all...) with some dirty business. but Gromnir will only move out if you have YS' heart settled.
to audience with YS you'll need a hint from somewhere in the sewers (though if you meta-game you don't need to...) get his heart settled by Nayalee, and then sneak discreetly into his camp.

Other interactions include
- talking to the Bhaalspawn at the Fire Temple to find out how to get in without antagonising Bremm the Fire Giant Cleric
- using Imix to trick Bremm so that you can get YS' heart without antagonising him. then lead Imix and Bremm to Nayalee, so that they can help you remove her. you can clean up what is left if you wish to.
- talking to Phlydian, sparing the vampire in return for later favours. particularly useful if you wish to use her level draining ability against either Gromnir or YS if and when there is a battle in Saradush.

3) Oasis
If you don't get rid of the army here, and impress them suitably (alignment, reputation, and a little test) you can have a chance to talk to the Queen and ally yourself with them. From there you can deploy the Tethyrian Army through Gen Jamis during the later part of ToB.

4) Sendai, Abazigal, Balthazar
Pit Sendai or/and Balthazar against Abazigal. Audiencing Sendai is not easy but can be done
Depending on the outcome and plotting, 2 more of the Five will be eliminated at the end of this.
If Balthazar decides to move against Abazigal (not easy...), the Tethyrian Army (if you are allied with them) can be contacted to take over Amkethran?

Other Notes so far include
- sneaking in to Sendai's Lair
- the Lich, the Priestess, the Elemental
- Derro rebellion
- more on the Imprisoned Monk
- Draconis the heir to Abazigal ?

5) The Last
The Tethyrian Army, if you did not destroy them at the Oasis, will attack you after you defeat your 3rd & 4th Bhaalspawn.
You can try to un-charm Gen Jamis to stop this. If so, he will press the attack if you are evil or low Rep ; he will leave if you neither, but you are not allied. However, if you are Allied, he will join you to march against the last member of the Five.
If you use Tethyrian Army against your sibling, Melissan will show up during or after the final fight to try her spells on you.

6) Finale - Bhaal's Return
The beginning of the Throne will be unaltered to cater to the Ascension and original Ending of ToB.
For every pool, you now have the choice to Accept or Reject the powers. The ones you accept will make you stronger ; but if you reject, Melissan will be stronger. However, there is a reason...

In the Final Fight, Melissan and you will be able to see one character moving on the field ; all your other party members will not be able to see or target him (I hope this is implementable) ; demons will also ignore him. This is the Spirit of Bhaal. Ironically, Melissan and you will be effectively "allied" against him, but you only have a short duration to kill him before he possesses one of you temporarily (the usual power up, summons lots of devils, and stuff like that, and uses a few HLAs for casting). The chance that he possesses you or Melissan will vary based on how many pools of power you have consumed earlier. The possession will break after a while, and his Spirit will wander again (he will only attack you and Melissan with simple but hard hitting melee attacks). Again, after an interval, he will possess One of you.

This will continue throughout the Battle until Melissan is defeated to near death, whereupon Bhaal will claim her as his Avatar, this time permanently. This launches into the final fight against Bhaal. The demons that Melissan controlled will attack him but will probably die pretty quick ; this is to buy the party some time. Bhaal will be banished at the end of the battle, returning Melissan's fallen form to the Throne (to tie in with the cinematic)

Note that if your PC is reduced to very near death during the time that Bhaal is still wandering the field without an Avatar OR possessing you (ie not possessing Melissan), then you become the new Avatar of Bhaal and the game Ends unhappily after a Cutscene, where basically Bhaal/you obliterates everyone opposing him.

There is a very low chance the Spirit of Bhaal can be slain by you and Melissan working together, before Melissan is defeated, but it will be pretty hard because of his Regeneration, the short amount of time that he is wandering the field, and how he regains full life after leaving a host body. If it can be done, then defeating Melissan will end the Finale.

I once tabled this idea a long time ago, I think on CoM. Back then there were many ideas, but not enough people to actually be dedicated to the project. However now that this community has become I think, relatively mature and full of people who want to really add to the story, I think it might be possible to put aside past experience and maybe give this a shot to make ToB be something more than what it is and something that is probably closer to what the Developers might have wanted rather than the hack & slash fest that it currently is.

For ease of Reference, I'll just put up my comments on various parts here...

Watcher's Keep - Personally I think this is the BEST part of ToB. It should be kept as it is. The overpowered weapons in there fit the overall ToB feel.

============

Illasera - uber, uber slip-shod. I feel that there could be more she would have done, like wage a war on the weakened Suldanessellar to try and force them to hand over the Bhaalspawn.

Saradush & Gromnir - Very nice quests inside, especially the Khiser one. What I feel though is lacking is the way to make Gromnir cooperate against Yaga Shura. I don't think it would be a far stretch to roleplay, especially since Gromnir can be killed by tonnes of people anyway - Melissan or Yaga Shura. Other minor bits is I feel the Barracks might have another way out bar slaughtering all the troops, and the sewers as well by helping them with the Shadows. What about the Vampires as well?

Yaga Shura - must Saradush be destroyed irrevocably? Is there a way around it? That being said, the fighting aspect is very well developed ; as well as the flow leading up to facing Yaga Shura. Is there more RP possibilities in it? What about Bremm in the Fire Giant Temple, or Imix? What about sneaking in quietly somehow, without raising the alarm, so that you don't have to face his (hordes) at the bridge area?

Note : If Saradush is not yet destroyed when you kill the 4th Bhaalspawn, Melissan will get some armies of the last remaining Bhaalspawn, or the Tethyrian army (whichever it is) to destroy it / purge it of Bhaalspawn. convenient plot device.

Oasis - still the pitstop necessary to reach Amkethran. this I think is missing something.
I'd like to add more to this, in fact ; it might be affected by if Saradush is destroyed, your Reputation, and various other factors. I think it would be nice if we could have Jamis bring you to audience with the Queen (indirectly, perhaps, through some medium, project image, or something that is more guaranteed to keep the Queen safe). From there you convince her of your intentions and then depending on your fulfillment ; or lack thereof, of it, there will be a Geas cast on you to summon you back to Jamis if you fail to do as you promised.

Amkethran - I think there's enough Quests here. I think it can stay largely as it is for now

Sendai - the woodcutter is fine, but I think underground in her city shows some untapped potential. possibilities might include disguising yourself as a drow, possibly with the cooperation of the Lich on the inside. appeasing the Elemental Prince of Earth might also be interesting.

Abazigal - maybe some way to RP past Draconis ; you can still fight him later when you re-emerge. the Quests inside are fairly interesting, so that should be fine as is, except maybe something to involve the Elemental Prince of Water to help you with the underwater breathing, instead of some "vials of breathing fluid." maybe the Prisoner from Balthazar can also serve some RP purpose in pitting the Bhaalspawn against each other. The death is too convenient.

Balthazar - there's been plenty of thought given to RP with this character, but I think it might be taken a little further. He does after all, seek to rid the world of the Bhaalspawn taint. Why not pit him against the others when the time is right?

Melissan - perhaps under certain circumstances can pit One of the Five Bhaalspawn against her (ideally when there's only 1 Bhaalspawn left), so that her efforts can help you defeat your last Sibling. and personally, I don't see why a Charismatic and Intelligent Bhaalspawn cannot take on exactly Melissan's role in being a catalyst for sowing dissent among the remaining Bhaalspawn.

=================

OVERALL
Non-Linear Gameplay? There's no real reason why Yaga Shura has to be dead before the other Bhaalspawn. Why must you meet Solar AFTER you kill Illasera? I think it might be fun if the Pocketplane be your base that you can use to plot the Bhaalspawn against each other ; for every major evil Bhaalspawn you kill, the Trials advance by one. This might make it feel like my favourite part of BG2 : SoA - wandering the town aimlessly from quest to quest, in a non-linear fashion I also think it might be nice to pit your enemies against each others, and assassinate them in the warfare. Tethyrian Army may also be a helpful faction depending on how you played things out with Gen Jamis.

However, to get someone to help you, requires diplomatic (and not too violent entry) into his/her lair. This would be tricky and interesting Non-Linear in Theory sounds good, but it might interfere with many custom ToB NPC Romances... just things worth noting. Alternatively, the non-linear can be altered so that Yaga Shura, Gromnir and Illasera's deaths can be non-linear in arrangement ; Abazigal, Sendai and Balthazar non-linear in arrangement. This is to minimise such issues disrupting Mods.

================

My Intentions

I'm quite confident coding most of these changes into ToB to totally alter the gameplay aspect, but I need a group of people who are excited about this to help write most of the content and also to filter out inappropriate dialogue / references (especially if the gameplay sequence is altered to non-linear). I guess I wouldn't be lying if I said I am too lazy to find out exactly which line of which DLG to change, out of sooo many DLGs in the game.

People can also feel free to write to this thread indicating their sentiments so on and so forth, as well as interesting ideas and those who like to write Quests.

Edited by Zyraen, 08 May 2008 - 09:14 AM.

[Cal Jones]

Just a few thoughts from someone who hasn't played many mods (well, just starting now, really) but has played Ascension and has played BG2 and ToB a LOT.

Illasera - uber, uber slip-shod. I feel that there could be more she would have done, like wage a war on the weakened Suldanessellar to try and force them to hand over the Bhaalspawn.

The improved Illasera with Ascension is much, much better in terms of her fight. I don't like stupidly hard fights just for the sake of it, but her character (ranger with boots of speed) makes more sense than her being a mage. However, I'll agree her role is a bit ho-hum...even in the improved fight she's no match for a post SoA party (even one that has not yet done Watcher's Keep). But I guess that's intended given that she's designed with the fact some people may be playing ToB as a standalone in mind. I think it would be difficult to take her back into SoA for the Suldanesselar part. I'd leave her as is, for the moment.

Saradush & Gromnir - Very nice quests inside, especially the Khiser one. What I feel though is lacking is the way to make Gromnir cooperate against Yaga Shura. I don't think it would be a far stretch to roleplay, especially since Gromnir can be killed by tonnes of people anyway - Melissan or Yaga Shura. Other minor bits is I feel the Barracks might have another way out bar slaughtering all the troops, and the sewers as well by helping them with the Shadows. What about the Vampires as well?

Again, yes, I really like Saradush and wish it wasn't so short. I do wish there was a way to try and reason with Gromnir. Yes he's a bully, so he's not a nice character in the general scheme of things, and yes he is also very paranoid...but he is also perfectly correct about Smelly Melly. Why not have him as the one who points the way towards the Five, rather than her? She is necessary to the plot as it stands, but could escape from the chaos following the sacking of Saradush.

Yaga Shura - must Saradush be destroyed irrevocably? Is there a way around it? That being said, the fighting aspect is very well developed ; as well as the flow leading up to facing Yaga Shura. Is there more RP possibilities in it? What about Bremm in the Fire Giant Temple, or Imix? What about sneaking in quietly somehow, without raising the alarm, so that you don't have to face his (hordes) at the bridge area?

Of course, he sees you as the enemy to begin with, as Mel has told him so. But once he realises he's no longer immortal, it makes sense that he might try to reason with you instead. However, if you decided to change the Saradush outcome, you would have to mess with all four of the romances which have Saradush-related dialogues. Just something to bear in mind.
Personally I like his base as it stands (and Imix has the Ravager of course, so I'm not letting him live!)
The female prisoner, though, is largely unexplored and could be expanded upon. Who is she and why is she there?

Oasis - still the pitstop necessary to reach Amkethran. this I think is missing something...

Yes, currently it's just a big slaughterfest. I know there's a mod where you can try and talk some sense into Jamis. Not tried it yet but I always feel a bit bad for having to kill him, so some other options would be nice.

Abazigal - maybe some way to RP past Draconis ; you can still fight him later when you re-emerge. the Quests inside are fairly interesting, so that should be fine as is, except maybe something to involve the Elemental Prince of Water to help you with the underwater breathing, instead of some "vials of breathing fluid." maybe the Prisoner from Balthazar can also serve some RP purpose in pitting the Bhaalspawn against each other. The death is too convenient.

I'm OK with this section as it stands, although the water elemental idea is interesting.
Perhaps an option to allow Sarevok to interrogate the monk would be available for the more evil-inclined (seeing as he does raise the issue).
I very much doubt Abazigal would reason with you, though; after all, you are a human (elf/dwarf/gnome etc) and thus beneath contempt in his eyes. But then again, he has somehow allowed himself to be allied with the likes of Illasera, so I guess you could be justified in that. It would have to be very, very hard to pull off, IMHO.

Balthazar - there's been plenty of thought given to RP with this character, but I think it might be taken a little further. He does after all, seek to rid the world of the Bhaalspawn taint. Why not pit him against the others when the time is right?

And of course, with Ascension, you can.

If you were going to make a MAJOR change then personally, I would like to see Mel relegated to a more minor role, since to me, she is not at all convincing, nor is she a sympathetic villain, as you can argue Sarevok and Irenicus were. She's just an arrogant biatch who needs putting down pronto.
Instead the final bad guy would, of course, be Bhaal. Which makes much more sense to me and would be a lot more satisfying, I feel. He could either use the original Sarevok avatar (as he does in the SoA dream sequence where you lose your soul) or, even better, the Ravager avatar.
This would be a huge coding change and being a technical moron, I have no idea how it would work, but I guess it's possible. I doubt it would be compatible with much else, under the circumstances.

[Tassadar88]

I was once thinking of a way to get people from Saradush to shelter in the pocket plane. To take them with you should be no problem. If they were Bhaalspawn, you could have them let their divinity get stripped off by the Solar. They could help or hinder in there, depending on who you took and what you were like. They could have animosities between themselves. And ultimately, you would have to land them somewhere safe. Plenty of RP material to go around with, relatively little coding, and a huge change in the storyline, I think ;-)

[Deva]

I was once thinking of a way to get people from Saradush to shelter in the pocket plane. To take them with you should be no problem. If they were Bhaalspawn, you could have them let their divinity get stripped off by the Solar. They could help or hinder in there, depending on who you took and what you were like. They could have animosities between themselves. And ultimately, you would have to land them somewhere safe. Plenty of RP material to go around with, relatively little coding, and a huge change in the storyline, I think ;-)

This idea, I love. Maybe even extra opportunities for spiriting in old colleagues to help with evacuating Saradush ect? People need healing? Call in Viconia/Jaheira ect! Once you find a safe place of refuge perhaps you could Fate Spirit in Keldorn or Valygar or some other warrior-type characters to protect the refugees. I think that'd be a nice way to get other NPC's involved who you don't have room or on your party... and make it feel like a more rounded conclusion to the trilogy, with all your old compatriots making a comeback in their own way, contributing to your cause.


The whole idea sounds brilliant, frankly. I'd always thought parts of ToB were on the patchy side, so anything to beef the game up, I'm all for. And can't make a solid commitment or anything due to RL business & Ninde, but I'd help you out the writing side of things, circumstances allowing.

[Icendoan]

There was a thread about this over at G3, with me and a person called Paradox, who were discussing possible ending to the end fight and replacing mel with Bhaal.

I don't have any of the dialogue or code I had, as somehow a virus got past ALL THREE antiviruses and infected the files there.

Here is the link, and the thread is worth a read. Some of the ideas, which changed over the time are not all that hard.

Icen

[Zyraen]

I'd much prefer Melissan replaced with Bhaal. However, this thread is not at all just about the ending.

My party already more or less RIPS just about anything apart (without using spells), YET I'm finding it a chore to slog through to the ending. I can't imagine what it must feel like to those whose parties actually get hurt by the trash along the way to the Bosses in ToB.

Much of the notes above is also meant to add
1) More Roleplay and Plotting to Your Role
2) Less Fighting, and More Quests / Interactions / Negotiations (and lies etc )

One thing I personally feel

I'd like to replace Melissan with MYSELF.
I can see how plotting and pitting the Bhaalspawn is to my Benefit. Even a Good Character would be all right with this as long as it helps to prevent the whole place from plunging into War.
As for Melissan.. frankly I'd like for her to be killed by one of the Five, or at least weaken one of the 5 before I step in to finish both Melissan and my Sibling off.

After all, think about it - I'm the only one out of all the Five, and Melissan as well, that has a permanent pocket dimension through time and space to sow and plot dissension among my foes. And the only one with a means apparently, to sneak through veritable armies to get to my target and negotiate with them. And the only one with the strength to DISPOSE of said armies if I should choose to.

Edited by Zyraen, 05 May 2008 - 02:34 AM.

[Kaeloree]

Maybe I'm the only one who actually liked Melissan as part of the Throne of Bhaal plot?

I do think she could be expanded a lot, her background explained further etc. As well as made less of a cardboard character--give her some more personality, more plots. And I would have thought there'd be more on her betrayal of the other five.

Will be following closely, it looks very interesting!

[Kellen]

My party already more or less RIPS just about anything apart (without using spells), YET I'm finding it a chore to slog through to the ending.

Your party? My Pc(Sorcerer) rips just about anything apart(with spells). Only trouble is Fire Giants, because of the number of fire spells compared to other elements.

[Zyraen]

Assuming no storyline conflicts with Existing ToB (and Custom NPC) Romances, would Players in general welcome the following alterations to ToB

1) Non-Linearity?
2) More Roleplay?
3) "Plotting" Role?
4) Bhaal's Resurrection?
5) Melissan to be Killed? OR made more "Real"?

Edited by Zyraen, 06 May 2008 - 11:50 PM.

[Cal Jones]

Assuming no storyline conflicts with Existing ToB (and Custom NPC) Romances, would Players in general welcome the following alterations to ToB

1) Non-Linearity?
2) More Roleplay?
3) "Plotting" Role?
4) Bhaal's Resurrection?
5) Melissan to be Killed? OR made more "Real"?

Much as I'd welcome less linearity, you have to be really careful due to the romances, which are directly affected by the wraith encounter outside the Temple of Bhaal, and then the sacking of Saradush. Maybe a better option would just be to add a few more interesting quests in the two towns or add a couple of new areas.
It may, however, be interesting not to have Illasera killed off during the initial encounter, so that she is able to hunt and hound you from place to place. She's supposed to be a strong Bhaalspawn but even her beefed up Ascension version is fairly easy to defeat.
I would love to fight Bhaal instead of Mel in the final fight. Would be nice if Balthazar did have her executed, heh heh.
If she was going to be left as the central villain, she would need fleshing out. At the moment she's ostensibly a good person who does a rather unconvincing heel turn (as though we didn't see that coming a mile off!) and it's all a bit, yeah, whatever. Now die, biatch!
The thing with Sarevok and Irenicus was that, evil as they were, they both had a sympathetic elememt (Sarevok's rough childhood, which you find out from Tamoko, and Irenicus's terrible punishment). Both are also charismatic. Mel is completely devoid of this - she is just plain evil, and thus rather uninteresting. I realise the heel turn is supposed to be a surprise, but let's face it, it's as plain as daylight.
I'm not sure the game allows enough time to flesh her out enough to make her more interesting or sympathetic, so having her killed off and replaced by Bhaal is possibly the easier option.
I'm hypothesising, of course.

[Chevalier]

1) Non-Linearity?
2) More Roleplay?

I like these the best.

[Zyraen]

Here's what I have in mind so far

1) Illasera
basically you can jump to Pocketplane without fighting her (to gather your party first)
she holds Elhan hostage and you can roleplay accordingly whether or not to surrender yourself for him.
Repercussions include Huge Rep loss if Elhan dies, Elhan being one way if you saved him but did not surrender yourself for him, and Elhan being totally... amazed... if you actually surrendered yourself (for a while) to save him

2) Gromnir & Yaga Shura
arriving in Saradush, Melissan will already tell you roughly about Yaga Shura. You can then do the 2 Temples or Saradush.
you'll be able to ally with Gromnir against Yaga Shura, or vice versa.
to audience with Gromnir you'll need to help out his barracks guys (instead of slaughtering them all...) with some dirty business. but Gromnir will only move out if you have YS' heart settled.
to audience with YS you'll need a hint from somewhere in the sewers (though if you meta-game you don't need to...) get his heart settled by Nayalee, and then sneak discreetly into his camp.

Other interactions include
- talking to the Bhaalspawn at the Fire Temple to find out how to get in without antagonising Bremm the Fire Giant Cleric
- using Imix to trick Bremm so that you can get YS' heart without antagonising him. then lead Imix and Bremm to Nayalee, so that they can help you remove her. you can clean up what is left if you wish to.
- talking to Phlydian, sparing the vampire in return for later favours. particularly useful if you wish to use her level draining ability against either Gromnir or YS if and when there is a battle in Saradush.

3) Oasis
If you don't get rid of the army here, and impress them suitably (alignment, reputation, and a little test) you can have a chance to talk to the Queen and ally yourself with them. From there you can deploy the Tethyrian Army through Gen Jamis during the later part of ToB.

4) Sendai, Abazigal, Balthazar
Pit Sendai or/and Balthazar against Abazigal. Audiencing Sendai is not easy but can be done
Depending on the outcome and plotting, 2 more of the Five will be eliminated at the end of this.
If Balthazar decides to move against Abazigal (not easy...), the Tethyrian Army (if you are allied with them) can be contacted to take over Amkethran?

Other Notes so far include
- sneaking in to Sendai's Lair
- the Lich, the Priestess, the Elemental
- Derro rebellion
- more on the Imprisoned Monk

5) The Last
The Tethyrian Army, if you did not destroy them at the Oasis, will attack you after you defeat your 3rd & 4th Bhaalspawn.
You can try to un-charm Gen Jamis to stop this. If so, he will press the attack if you are evil or low Rep ; he will leave if you neither, but you are not allied. However, if you are Allied, he will join you to march against the last member of the Five.
If you use Tethyrian Army against your sibling, Melissan will show up during or after the final fight to try her spells on you.

6) Finale - Bhaal's Return
The beginning of the Throne will be unaltered to cater to the Ascension and original Ending of ToB.
For every pool, you now have the choice to Accept or Reject the powers. The ones you accept will make you stronger ; but if you reject, Melissan will be stronger. However, there is a reason...

In the Final Fight, Melissan and you will be able to see one character moving on the field ; all your other party members will not be able to see or target him (I hope this is implementable) ; demons will also ignore him. This is the Spirit of Bhaal. Ironically, Melissan and you will be effectively "allied" against him, but you only have a short duration to kill him before he possesses one of you temporarily (the usual power up, summons lots of devils, and stuff like that, and uses a few HLAs for casting). The chance that he possesses you or Melissan will vary based on how many pools of power you have consumed earlier. The possession will break after a while, and his Spirit will wander again (he will only attack you and Melissan with simple but hard hitting melee attacks). Again, after an interval, he will possess One of you.

This will continue throughout the Battle until Melissan is defeated to near death, whereupon Bhaal will claim her as his Avatar, this time permanently. This launches into the final fight against Bhaal. The demons that Melissan controlled will attack him but will probably die pretty quick ; this is to buy the party some time. Bhaal will be banished at the end of the battle, returning Melissan's fallen form to the Throne (to tie in with the cinematic)

Note that if your PC is reduced to very near death during the time that Bhaal is still wandering the field without an Avatar OR possessing you (ie not possessing Melissan), then you become the new Avatar of Bhaal and the game Ends unhappily after a Cutscene, where basically Bhaal/you obliterates everyone opposing him.

There is a very low chance the Spirit of Bhaal can be slain by you and Melissan working together, before Melissan is defeated, but it will be pretty hard because of his Regeneration, the short amount of time that he is wandering the field, and how he regains full life after leaving a host body. If it can be done, then defeating Melissan will end the Finale.

Edited by Zyraen, 07 May 2008 - 09:08 PM.

[Tassadar88]

Note that if your PC is reduced to very near death during the time that Bhaal is still wandering the field without an Avatar OR possessing you (ie not possessing Melissan), then you become the new Avatar of Bhaal and the game Ends unhappily after a Cutscene, where basically Bhaal/you obliterates everyone opposing him.

I liked all the rest without objections, but will not this one make the final fight very very much harder?

[Icendoan]

Point A) I would be very happy to play that

With the Bhaal thing, you could make it so that he only comes out from invisibility when he can only see you or Mel?

Icen

[Kaeloree]

I would recommend keeping the destruction of Saradush in the game, otherwise you'll be wrecking most mod NPC romances as well as Bioware romances.

Aside from that, it looks good. The more opportunities for less violence and more actual roleplaying, the better.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I would recommend keeping the destruction of Saradush in the game, otherwise you'll be wrecking most mod NPC romances as well as Bioware romances.

Well, it doesn't have to be completely destroyed, thus the variable is always set right, but the gate, front-whatever can be blown to bit's, so the Bhaalspawn can enter and save the city(the few NPCs that are still around).

[Zyraen]

@Tass
Oh don't worry. I expect it will be when your PC hits about 5 or 10 Hitpoints or so. About there you're practically as good as dead, so may as well end the game there. It isn't that much different from being smushed to bit by a lightning or a sword.

@K`aeloree
Not to worry, Saradush will assuredly be destroyed no matter what. Even if Melissan has to get someone to lead the remnants of Yaga Shura's army to sack the city lol.

But what of other aspects? Like being able to pit siblings against each other?

Edited by Zyraen, 08 May 2008 - 01:04 AM.

[Erephine]

Non-Linear Gameplay? There's no real reason why Yaga Shura has to be dead before the other Bhaalspawn. Why must you meet Solar AFTER you kill Illasera? I think it might be fun if the Pocketplane be your base that you can use to plot the Bhaalspawn against each other ; for every major evil Bhaalspawn you kill, the Trials advance by one. This might make it feel like my favourite part of BG2 : SoA - wandering the town aimlessly from quest to quest, in a non-linear fashion

That that that!


I actually think what ToB lacks most is non-plot related areas and quests. Allow the player to travel to a few SoA locations again, have side quests, etc.

1) Non-Linearity?
2) More Roleplay?
3) "Plotting" Role?
4) Bhaal's Resurrection?
5) Melissan to be Killed? OR made more "Real"?

yes
yes
possibly (as in, you can but don't have to!)
possibly (although I guess it would be a lot of work :/ )

I'd say keep Melissan but make her interesting. From what I remember it all seemed very shallow and I'd like to see more character development, intrigue and double crossing.

1) Illasera
basically you can jump to Pocketplane without fighting her (to gather your party first)
she holds Elhan hostage and you can roleplay accordingly whether or not to surrender yourself for him.
Repercussions include Huge Rep loss if Elhan dies, Elhan being one way if you saved him but did not surrender yourself for him, and Elhan being totally... amazed... if you actually surrendered yourself (for a while) to save him

I love this idea!

This could also lead to the elves taking a different stance towards the war accordingly.

[Azkyroth]

Assuming no storyline conflicts with Existing ToB (and Custom NPC) Romances, would Players in general welcome the following alterations to ToB

1) Non-Linearity?
2) More Roleplay?
3) "Plotting" Role?
4) Bhaal's Resurrection?
5) Melissan to be Killed? OR made more "Real"?

Much as I'd welcome less linearity, you have to be really careful due to the romances, which are directly affected by the wraith encounter outside the Temple of Bhaal, and then the sacking of Saradush. Maybe a better option would just be to add a few more interesting quests in the two towns or add a couple of new areas.

For the Bioware romances it'd be easy enough to code in an alternate dialogue with some soul-searching and mutual relief and congratulations about having saved Saradush, or at least gotten most of the people out. Keeping Yaga-Shura's army from flat-out massacring the inhabitants would be one thing, but there's no way the city won't have become a Faerunian Emergency Management Agency disaster area by the time the fire giants are gone. For mod romances...it'd be a little harder, but many existing mod romances could be adapted by their modders; I'd be happy to do that with Arkalian, within reason.

[EDIT]Perhaps an emphasis on trying to get as many bystanders out of the city and to safety as possible; the city itself is pretty much as good as ruined, but a lot of lives could be saved for a non-evil PC.

Having Melissan killed off would be interesting, too. I know exactly who would have the means and motive to do it, even if the Five don't turn on her, too... if not, I do like your idea except that perhaps the player should have some options for resisting that possession...perhaps doing certain optional quests could make it easier? [EDIT]I'd definitely factor wisdom, reputation, and alignment into that, too.

Edited by Azkyroth, 08 May 2008 - 02:14 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Having Melissan killed off would be interesting, too. I know exactly who would have the means and motive to do it, even if the Five don't turn on her, too...

Bhaalspawn: "Cespenar, what did you do?!?"