86 replies to this topic

[Tempest]

Re: Keldorn - Possibly - he does have one daughter who is still a child (the other is Imoen's age, so he implies in a ToB banter, at any rate), so he's probably not that old. But then my boss, who is 51, has a son of 7, so I'd say Keldorn is around the 48-50 mark, possibly a year or two older, but not much more than that. The 20-something marriage is unlikely - I would guess that he threw himself into his duty until an elder relative bullied him into marrying a younger noble woman in order to beget a Firecam heir while he was well into his thirties.

Remember this is the Forgotten Realms-humans are independent adults at 15, and most humans are married with kids by 20. As a nobleman in an extremely hazardous occupation, it would be even more important for Keldorn to marry and father children early-before he's killed in battle. Paladins are characterized as having extremely short life expectancies.

Also, remember that Charname is a little unusual, being single and devoid of experience in romantic relationships at 20 or so, because he/she grew up in Candlekeep, where there was only one other person his/her age. Note that in BG2, about the only characters who haven't had experience in relationships with the opposite sex are Minsc (who isn't a man, yet, in Rashemar culture-that's what his dajemma is all about), Anomen (who's thrown himself into other things), and Aerie (who's pretty self-explanatory).

[Crazee]

I don't know about that. I've never imagined, say, Nalia, to have much experience with the opposite sex. Assuming Isea doesn't count, of course. It fits in with her naive character. I can imagine Keldorn marrying early, but not having kids at that age. Maybe at 23-25.

And do you know what this thread has made me realise? Bioware seem to have a thing against writing (more obviously) young male PCs. All the unanimously agreed-upon young characters (Aerie, Nalia, Imoen) are woman. Interesting ...

And just as side-point, why are there never any hopelessly naive male characters?

[Aliya]

Not everyhing is that simple, Craz...

Mad Cyricist at the Docks - maybe 19?

[Tempest]

Crazee, remember: this is a world where having kids by 20 is normal. By 20, you're an adult who's lived on your own for several years, and are expected to be a man/woman. And given social pressures, a young nobleman in an extremely hazardous occupation would be encouraged, so to speak, to ensure the family has a legacy after he dies, which may come very early. In Faerun, for a woman, kids tend to come immediately after marriage, whether you particularly want them or not-such is the society and culture of the times.

Also, if you want a naive male, I bid you look no further than Anomen. Or for a truly, hopelessly naive male, all you need do is go to the ur-mod npc Kelsey.

[Crazee]

I guess so. The fact that Cernd and Keldorn (I think - I can't be bothered to run a checklist), the two oldest men, are the only of the original lot to have children gives me the wrong impression, I guess. I've never really thought about Faerun outside the context of Baldur's Gate.

And yes, Kelsey. Point.

EDIT - And, of course, Aerie gives birth, doesn't she? And both Charname and her are pretty young, in relation to the other characters.

Edited by Crazee, 19 August 2008 - 12:28 PM.

[Scipio]

I'm 21, and feel like I've only recently become anything resembling an adult.

I'm 41, and I am still waiting to grow up. I don't think it's going to happen, though.

I'm 58 and still waiting for maturity to kick in. Should I have "set aside these childish things" when I turned 21? What, and never play computer games or read Harry Potter?

Regardless of how old NPCs are supposed to be or not, I play them as they seem to be to me. Regardless of the different rates at which they may progress from middle age to venerable age, I enjoy them for what they are now. They're like my cats. Most of them mature in a fraction of their lifespan, remain in their prime for most of their life, then fade quickly at the end. One of our cats, Poepie Captain Poepie By The Way, is nearly ten and he still spends most of his life being a galumphing kitten. Another, Phillip William Suitcase, was a grumpy old fart by the time he was two.

So Aerie will always be a naive and lovely girl to me, even when she's 500 and my PC has become a fossil. Viconia is 35 to me, and she'll still be 35 when Toril has nuclear power. All that matters are those one or two years of game time which have given me so much pleasure over the last decade.

There's probaby enough in this thread now for someone to make a generally acceptable guess at the Boiware NPCs' ages. The authors of the NPC mods presumably know how old those character are intended to be. Now we wait for the biggest mystery to unravel, Aliya: Why is so so important to you to know these exact ages?

[Amaurea]

I also think Keldorn is younger than people think-mid 40's, no older. This being the Forgotten Realms, he was more than likely married and his kids were born before Keldorn was 20. And twenty or so years is a very long time to be a paladin on active duty-it would definitely make him feel and look much older than he is.

I completely agree with this. I see Keldorn as a contemporary (which is why I kinda find him hot... go laugh now, everyone).

With Jaheira, I just think the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it to. She does not act the age her backstory would leave her with, and the bits about being old friends of Gorion just don't work (unless Gorion read her nursery rhymes and rocked her to sleep.) The youngest I could place her behavior would be in her late 20's, and that's stretching it a bit. I do think she'd stretch her own credulity acting as the voice of wisdom mere years from reaching maturity... though I suppose that she could be the standard know-it-all at 21 type. For some reason, the weight I believe you're supposed to give her statements in game gives her more gravitas than to suggest it's merely misguided hubris on her part.

Having said all that, it's why I've come to the conclusion that they can be as old as I want them to be in my little game world. The devs ignored tons of things, why can't I?

[Erephine]

I think the 'age is a social construct' approach is the most reasonable assumption.

I'm not really FR savvy, but if you have elves that may reach 700+ years in age in simple interpolation it would mean at age 20 they're still literally (physically) infants. This clearly isn't the case, so you'd pretty much have to start applying different aging rates at different age spans -- for instance, a fifteen year old elf may only be slightly 'younger' than a fifteen year old human, but a seventy year old elf would be no noticeably older than a twenty year old human.

Obviously, if you have a lifespan of several hundred years, society is going to base their categories (child, adult, elderly) on that. This means a thirty year old elf could physically function in society just as well as a thirty year old human, but they don't actually do so in an elven community because they're still socially children. Which makes sense, really, if your experience competes with people who are several hundred years old As people have said, the age of people 'growing up' has changed periodically over history, this would merely be an extension of it.

So, having grown up in a human environment, I don't personally see any problem with the PC being twenty, no matter if they're half-elves, elves, or human. Or the NPCs, for that matter

[MrToughGuy]

And just as side-point, why are there never any hopelessly naive male characters?

Well, there was Garrick, and Minsc can be pretty naive (oddly, moreso in BG2 than BG1)

[Azkyroth]

I guess another thing to keep in mind is, if we accept the archaic trappings of the setting at all (without perhaps putting it literally in this world's late middle ages), and no matter that D&D tends to give its characters ambitious average lifespans given the state of olden-days medicine and nutrition--people tended to grow up a lot faster then than they do now. I'm 21, and feel like I've only recently become anything resembling an adult; but hundreds of years ago, if I lived this long, I would likely already be a householder, the father of several children, and the veteran of at least one military campaign.

From what I've read, until relatively recently (last 100-150 years) people in real-world Western cultures generally tended to hit puberty in their mid to late teens (modern diet is believed to be responsible for this). While this wasn't generally an obstacle to marriage, at least for girls, it would complicate having children that early. What data are we working from with the Medieval Earth age assumptions here?

[berelinde]

I also think Keldorn is younger than people think-mid 40's, no older. This being the Forgotten Realms, he was more than likely married and his kids were born before Keldorn was 20. And twenty or so years is a very long time to be a paladin on active duty-it would definitely make him feel and look much older than he is.

I completely agree with this. I see Keldorn as a contemporary (which is why I kinda find him hot... go laugh now, everyone).

I agree with this, on both counts. I, too think Keldorn is in his mid-forties, max, and I, too find him rather attractive. So I'm not going to laugh at you.

I can understand why he gives the impression of being older, though. When you're in your 40's and everyone around you is in their 20's, you sure can feel old. So you say things like "This old chemist remembers chart recorders," and things like that. And you roll your eyes when your coworkers talk about their weekends.

Adventuring is a young-person's profession. I imagine an 40-something adventurer would probably feel a lot like that.

[Cal Jones]

Mm an Angelo (the mod NPC) has the cheek to call him gramps, when Angelo is supposed to be 49. Heh.

As for Minsc, I'm not sure he's that innocent - after all he does seem to have picked up Calimshite itch at some point...

Kelsey's not very experienced in love, but he's not a virgin (he'll admit to having had a few tumbles). I don't think Anomen is a virgin either, although he certainly has no idea how to treat women. But then that's true for a lot of men, to be honest!

[Aliya]

I agree with Scip...

[Azkyroth]

And just as side-point, why are there never any hopelessly naive male characters?

Have you read Keldorn's attempt at defending his beliefs to Cernd?

[minotaur_in_maze]

Also, if you want a naive male, I bid you look no further than Anomen. Or for a truly, hopelessly naive male, all you need do is go to the ur-mod npc Kelsey.

But I've always thought that Kelsey was young, like 18-19 tops. He seems like a nice guy.

Keldorn though I thought he was older, like in his early sixties.

Aerie? 40 +? Y',ean I've been seeing an Older woman? *(Chew on That Scip... LOL)

Jaheira - Old.

Immy - Young, 16-20

[Tempest]

Have you read Keldorn's attempt at defending his beliefs to Cernd?

I'd call Cernd the naive one in that conversation. Choosing to believe in something unrealistic because your hope is to change reality is not naive-it's the fundamental agent of progression and change.

[Scipio]

Aerie? 40 +? Y',ean I've been seeing an Older woman? *(Chew on That Scip... LOL)

To me she's still a child, almost. Only 40? That's pretty much the same as Jennifer Aniston.

[Cal Jones]

But I've always thought that Kelsey was young, like 18-19 tops. He seems like a nice guy.

I took him on my last BG2 runthrough and believe he is supposed to be around 25 (he talks about discovering his magic gift when he was 15, ten years ago). I'll agree he comes across quite young, but then if I think back to some of my behaviour when I was 25, I was pretty immature at times...

[Azkyroth]

I'd call Cernd the naive one in that conversation. Choosing to believe in something unrealistic because your hope is to change reality is not naive-it's the fundamental agent of progression and change.

Be that as it may, I've seen Pharyngula trolls (and I mean bona fide trolls) offer a more compelling, eloquent, and well-prepared definition of their faith. Keldorn comes off like a student homeschooled and sheltered for religious reasons who's gone on to college and just found out today that not everyone has the same beliefs. He's supposed to be a middle-aged warrior with extensive experience in the world, a WIS score of 16, an INT score of 12, and a CHA score of 18, none of which are consistent with his performance in those dialogues.

[Tempest]

He also remains idealistic and believes very strongly that naivete should be justified, because there shouldn't be reasons for people to be otherwise. It's Keldorn's job to work to make sure his beliefs can one day come true. I don't imagine he's had much experience trying to argue with anyone about his beliefs, because his career has almost entirely been on the battlefront-a high charisma does not mean you're a skilled speaker, necessarily, and Keldorn is probably quite an inspiring leader on the battlefield. Stop projecting your own [extremely left-wing] beliefs onto a character when there are much simpler explanations that fit far better. To me, Keldorn does show a 16 Wis during that conversation-Cernd doesn't exactly make any convincing rebuttals.

Edited by Tempest, 20 August 2008 - 12:01 PM.