86 replies to this topic

[Abigail]

In BG1 Imoen says something along the lines: "hey, I'm not much younger than you!" or "you're just a little older!". I believe it's upon your first meeting in Candleekep.

Edited by Abigail, 17 August 2008 - 04:18 AM.

[Cal Jones]

Yep she's slightly younger. The BG1 biography part says she's content to play the part of little sister although there's not much difference between your actual ages. The PC is 20 in BG so she is likely 18-19 then, and a year older in SoA.

[Rastor]

It is explicitly stated in the game that Imoen is a year younger than the PC.

[vilkacis]

It is explicitly stated in the game that Imoen is a year younger than the PC.

Where, exactly? I don't remember anything like that, just that she arrives in Candlekeep 10 years after the PC.

[Crazee]

Yes, that's my point, also. I don't recall any explicit evidence, apart from numerous references to her being content to play the part of the little sister, which isn't really concrete. Abigail makes a good point about Imoen referring to being younger right at the start, but I think most people are getting this "one year" business from somewhere else. (I get annoyed about this, because I think most people assume she's younger because she's more child-like than the PC, and I really hate it when people tell me stuff about my PC's personality, when really, it should be my choice).

I'd be interested to know how old people think some of the significant NPCs are, also. Like, Gorion, Irenicus, Ellesime, and and others, too.

[Aliya]

Gorion maybe 70-75, I think...

Irenicus... umm, that's a tough one, he wears a mask, so I can't say how old is he.

Ellesime - 28, I'm sure

[Sister Vigilante]

I also never imagined Minsc as being that young, although it's an intriguing thought; I'm with Crazee on this.

But I would tend to put Viconia on the younger side, 23-4 in human years. A lot about her snaps into focus if you imagine her as your bitchy college roommate.

[Scipio]

But I would tend to put Viconia on the younger side, 23-4 in human years. A lot about her snaps into focus if you imagine her as your bitchy college roommate.

I don't take Wikipedia as a 100% reliable authority, but in an article about Balder's Gate NPCs it says of Viconia: "...she mentions during one of her character-related conversations, she had ceased to be a priestress of Lolth even before the protagonist has been born, so she might indeed be the oldest of the games' NPCs (though still young for an elf)."

And about Jaheira: "...she is stated to have been born during the Tethyrian Civil War, which started only 22 years before the game's setting. Even if it's read as not her birth but formative years being dominated by the civil war, her age is unlikely to exceed 30." (Presumably 30 human years? That would make her VERY young for a half-elf, surely?)

Here's a thought: If you're playing with an elf as your PC, how old must your PC be? How old does THAT make Imoen? Maybe Bioware had no choice but to mess around with canonical timelines because of the possibility that the PC could be any one of various races with different lifespans.

Maybe the best approach would be to imagine the characters are as old as you think they should be in relation to your PC. If I'm a human of 20 in BG, Imoen is 19 to me, no matter what the authoritative texts say. If I'm an elf of 200, Imoen is still a human of 19. (And everyone at Candlekeep treats me as if I'm 12, but so what.)

I think it's also important to look at this whole matter in terms of OUR world's marketing philosophies. Back here on Earth, Bioware would have known that its primary target market for BG/BG2 would be in the 16-24 demographic group. It would have known that game-players in that age span would feel most comfortable if the majority of the NPCs were in the same age span. So to heck with what the experts say elsewhere. In the Bioware context, which is of course the context of your gameplay, let Viconia be the equivalent of 24, let Edwin be 25, let Minsc be in his middle to late 20s and not a teenager if that's how you see them. Let suspension of disbelief rule the day.

To re-quote Sister Vigilante's remark about Viconia, "A lot about her snaps into focus if you imagine her as your bitchy college roommate." Exactly. It may be someone else's canon but it's your game when you're playing it.

So what if it's unrealistic to "see" Viconia as a woman in her 20s. It is much less realistic than projecting the 58-year-old, mechanistic, demi-human me into the game as a 20-year-old human who can use magic.

[Cal Jones]

I must admit I tire of games that force you to play youngsters rather than giving you a clean slate, so to speak.
The PC as an elf of 200 - well, seeing as Gorion rescued you from the Bhaal temple as a baby, that would have made him about 270 years old when he died.
I think you just have to suspend disbelief, and put it down to "a wizard did it."

As for things like Jaheira's age, I wouldn't take it too seriously. After all, Bioware really messed with their own timelines - take Abazigal, for instance, a dragon somehow old enough to have a mature son. Doesn't really fit in with the rest, but what the hell. I guess the game designers thought a dragon Bhaalspawn would be cool and put it in anyway, even though it makes no sense whatsoever (rather like Sarevok's glowing eyes and numerous other things I could mention if I wasn't in such a hurry to stop typing and go and watch Dexter).

Anyway, Gorion - well there's a dream you get in BG where you're remembering Ulraunt telling Gorion that the child would be the death of him. It says something "how old must he have been to have aged so little in the time you knew him?" or something to that effect. I guess, based on that, 70s is reasonable.

[Crazee]

I've always assumed that in the case of the longer-living races, the Bhaalspawn essence has the odd side-effect of aging the elf/dwarf/whatever as if it were a human. Whether after they reach their physical peak (which I'm going to lie, and say is ~20) they start to age regularly, I don't know, but I thought it was a pretty nifty explanation to the atrocious timeline of the game.

[Miloch]

And about Jaheira: "...she is stated to have been born during the Tethyrian Civil War, which started only 22 years before the game's setting. Even if it's read as not her birth but formative years being dominated by the civil war, her age is unlikely to exceed 30." (Presumably 30 human years? That would make her VERY young for a half-elf, surely?)

No, that's about right. Half-elves age pretty much the same as humans until middle-age or so, per PnP resources.

[Aliya]

Yes, I thought so.

Who can tell, how old is Irenicus? Or Mellisan?

Illasera - she's young, maybe 25?

Yaga-Shura - 55?

Sendai - she a drow. Right? Right. Human - 30, elf - 180...

Abazigal - Blue skin, red eyes... - 34...

Balthazar - Maybe mid30s?

[MrToughGuy]

Yes, I thought so.

Who can tell, how old is Irenicus? Or Mellisan?

Illasera - she's young, maybe 25?

Yaga-Shura - 55?

Sendai - she a drow. Right? Right. Human - 30, elf - 180...

Abazigal - Blue skin, red eyes... - 34...

Balthazar - Maybe mid30s?

Ages matter not to the dead.

[Kellen]

Notes on aging.

Avariel reach adulthood at the age of 40. I believe Aerie is just barely that.

Halflings are adults at 20. Alora could be about that. Mazzy, maybe a little older.

Half-Elves reach adulthood at 20. Jaheira mentions being an old friend of Gorion's. I believe she mention's watching the PC grow up.

Gnomes reach adulthood at 40 and middle age at 100. Jan's probably about there(around 70-80s). Quayle, possibly about the same age?

(Humans are considered adults at the age of 15)

[Azkyroth]

Here's a thought: If you're playing with an elf as your PC, how old must your PC be? How old does THAT make Imoen? Maybe Bioware had no choice but to mess around with canonical timelines because of the possibility that the PC could be any one of various races with different lifespans.

Maybe the best approach would be to imagine the characters are as old as you think they should be in relation to your PC. If I'm a human of 20 in BG, Imoen is 19 to me, no matter what the authoritative texts say. If I'm an elf of 200, Imoen is still a human of 19. (And everyone at Candlekeep treats me as if I'm 12, but so what.)

I proposed a solution. Any thoughts on it?

And about Jaheira: "...she is stated to have been born during the Tethyrian Civil War, which started only 22 years before the game's setting. Even if it's read as not her birth but formative years being dominated by the civil war, her age is unlikely to exceed 30." (Presumably 30 human years? That would make her VERY young for a half-elf, surely?)

No, that's about right. Half-elves age pretty much the same as humans until middle-age or so, per PnP resources.

I don't have such resources for PnP, but the ages I got from the D20 SRD with half-remembered corroboration from Dlabraddath are as follows:

Humans reach "adulthood" at 15, and are middle-aged at 35, old at 53, "venerable" at 70, and can live to be 95.
Half-elves reach "adulthood" at 20, are middle-aged around 62, old at 93, venerable at 125, and can live to be up to 185.

The age groups don't map very well. Half-elves reach adulthood about 30% slower than humans. From there, they take slightly over twice as long as humans to reach the next age category (middle-aged), then about one and a half times as long as humans to reach the next age category (old), then about twice as long as humans to reach the next age category (venerable), then nearly two and a half times as long to reach their maximum age. Someone with patience and appropriate utilities should graph that. O.o

Jaheira's demeanor in-game strikes me as that of a woman who's around 25, though it's somewhat difficult to account for unless she had younger siblings while growing up (not necessarily blood relations; perhaps other children raised by the druids). Minsc is supposed to be a young adult proving his manhood on a ritual journey, but seems 30ish in terms of his physical appearance in the portrait in Baldur's Gate 2 (the BG1 version is more credible in this regard), yet has a preteen's grasp of moral and social complexities ("he also has the combativeness of a paladin, but unfortunately doesn't have either the ingrained anal-implosive tendencies or the acceptable substitute of fawning servility, and they aren't the type to accept two out of three" -Arkalian, under her breath). Edwin still has way too much to prove to be credible as an older person, but then again, I've met people in their 40s who were that arrogant and self-absorbed (perhaps Red Wizards are the Faerunian equivalent of K-12 school administrators?).

Edited by Azkyroth, 18 August 2008 - 11:30 PM.

[Aliya]

Humans reach "adulthood" at 15, and are middle-aged at 35, old at 53, "venerable" at 70, and can live to be 95.
Half-elves reach "adulthood" at 20, are middle-aged around 62, old at 93, venerable at 125, and can live to be up to 185.

The age groups don't map very well. Half-elves reach adulthood about 30% slower than humans. From there, they take slightly over twice as long as humans to reach the next age category (middle-aged), then about one and a half times as long as humans to reach the next age category (old), then about twice as long as humans to reach the next age category (venerable), then nearly two and a half times as long to reach their maximum age. Someone with patience and appropriate utilities should graph that. O.o

Jaheira's demeanor in-game strikes me as that of a woman who's around 25, though it's somewhat difficult to account for unless she had younger siblings while growing up (not necessarily blood relations; perhaps other children raised by the druids). Minsc is supposed to be a young adult proving his manhood on a ritual journey, but seems 30ish in terms of his physical appearance in the portrait in Baldur's Gate 2 (the BG1 version is more credible in this regard), yet has a preteen's grasp of moral and social complexities ("he also has the combativeness of a paladin, but unfortunately doesn't have either the ingrained anal-implosive tendencies or the acceptable substitute of fawning servility, and they aren't the type to accept two out of three" -Arkalian, under her breath). Edwin still has way too much to prove to be credible as an older person, but then again, I've met people in their 40s who were that arrogant and self-absorbed (perhaps Red Wizards are the Faerunian equivalent of K-12 school administrators?).

Maybe, maybe not...

[Sister Vigilante]

I guess another thing to keep in mind is, if we accept the archaic trappings of the setting at all (without perhaps putting it literally in this world's late middle ages), and no matter that D&D tends to give its characters ambitious average lifespans given the state of olden-days medicine and nutrition--people tended to grow up a lot faster then than they do now. I'm 21, and feel like I've only recently become anything resembling an adult; but hundreds of years ago, if I lived this long, I would likely already be a householder, the father of several children, and the veteran of at least one military campaign.

I certainly couldn't imagine Anomen being the same age as me--until I think of him as, rather than a spoiled brat, someone who was trained for the knighthood from an early age. Exposed to stresses like that I would probably have grown up much faster myself (not of course that Anomen is all tha-at mature)

[Tempest]

I also think Keldorn is younger than people think-mid 40's, no older. This being the Forgotten Realms, he was more than likely married and his kids were born before Keldorn was 20. And twenty or so years is a very long time to be a paladin on active duty-it would definitely make him feel and look much older than he is.

[Cal Jones]

I'm 21, and feel like I've only recently become anything resembling an adult.

I'm 41, and I am still waiting to grow up. I don't think it's going to happen, though.

Re: Keldorn - Possibly - he does have one daughter who is still a child (the other is Imoen's age, so he implies in a ToB banter, at any rate), so he's probably not that old. But then my boss, who is 51, has a son of 7, so I'd say Keldorn is around the 48-50 mark, possibly a year or two older, but not much more than that. The 20-something marriage is unlikely - I would guess that he threw himself into his duty until an elder relative bullied him into marrying a younger noble woman in order to beget a Firecam heir while he was well into his thirties.

[Miloch]

I don't have such resources for PnP, but the ages I got from the D20 SRD with half-remembered corroboration from Dlabraddath are as follows:

Humans reach "adulthood" at 15, and are middle-aged at 35, old at 53, "venerable" at 70, and can live to be 95.
Half-elves reach "adulthood" at 20, are middle-aged around 62, old at 93, venerable at 125, and can live to be up to 185.

Here are the PnP tables from the 2e PHB (on which BG1+2 are based). I added the half-orc entries from the Complete Book of Humanoids.

Age

-		Starting Age	Maximum Age Range
Race   Base Age Variable (Base + Variable)
Dwarf	 40	  5d6	   250+2d100
Elf	  100	  5d6	   350+4d100*
Gnome	 60	  3d12	  200+3d100
Half-elf  15	  1d6	   125+3d20
Half-orc  12	  1d4		90+2d20
Halfling  20	  3d4	   100+1d100
Human	 15	  1d4		90+2d20

* Upon attaining this age, an elf does not die. Rather, he feels compelled to migrate to some mysterious, other land, departing the world of men.

Aging Effects

-	  Middle Age*	 Old Age**	Venerable***
Race  (1/2 Base Max) (2/3 Base Max) (Base Max)
Dwarf   125 years	  167 years	250 years
Elf	 175 years	  233 years	350 years
Gnome   100 years	  133 years	200 years
Half-elf 62 years	   83 years	125 years
Half-orc 30 years	   40 years	 60 years
Halfling 50 years	   67 years	100 years
Human	45 years	   60 years	 90 years

*   -1 Str/Con; +1 Int/Wis
**  -2 Str/Dex, -1 Con; +1 Wis
*** -1 Str/Dex/Con; +1 Int/Wis

Edited by Miloch, 19 August 2008 - 10:12 AM.