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aTweaks/SCS Fiends redux


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#1 DavidWallace

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:57 PM

I'm doing a reasonably-systematic recoding of most of SCS(II) and I thought I'd take a look over the aTweaks fiends component and make sure I wasn't breaking anything.

A few observations / suggestions:

(1) Wow. This is beautiful stuff. The attention to detail is very impressive. I haven't tried it in-game yet but I certainly will next time I do a playthrough.
(2) The main statistic differences between SCS and aTweaks fiends seem to be (i) I kick the caster level quite a bit higher; (ii) I leave alone the in-game statistics, which for some creatures (notably WK demons) are a fair bit higher than the PnP stats. As regards (ii), all that's happening in an SCS+aTweaks install is that SCS is insulating the vanilla data from PnP-ification. In any case, this all seems to fit together smoothly.
(3) v22 of SCS will support LCneutral spellcasters summoning yugoloths, if you want to take advantage. You need to create enemy-summoned versions of the nycaloth, arcanaloth, and ultroloth, and to create eff files to summon them, called, respectively, "dw#sumyn", "dw#sumya", and "dw#sumyu". (This will overwrite SCS-created EFF files which at present summon baatezu or tanar'ri with a 50% chance of each.)
(4) aTweaks makes Balors into dual-wielders, which is cool. At present, an SCS-plus-aTweaks install (I think) leaves Balors unskilled in dual-wielding. I've moved SCS v22 Balors over to dual-wielding (with rather more minimal weapons than the ultra-cool aTweaks ones, tempted though I was to borrow them) and provided appropriate proficiencies. Could you flag the Balor weapons as Proficiency: Longsword and Proficiency: Flail/Morningstar, so that on an SCS/aTweaks install the other Balor proficiencies work correctly.
(5) Why are Glabrezu 100% immune to acid? I didn't think that was on the 2nd edition immunity list? (I know the creature description says they're immune to nonmagical acid, but I assume most acid in-game they're likely to encounter is magical.)

#2 Wisp

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:57 AM

(3) v22 of SCS will support LCneutral spellcasters summoning yugoloths, if you want to take advantage. You need to create enemy-summoned versions of the nycaloth, arcanaloth, and ultroloth, and to create eff files to summon them, called, respectively, "dw#sumyn", "dw#sumya", and "dw#sumyu". (This will overwrite SCS-created EFF files which at present summon baatezu or tanar'ri with a 50% chance of each.)

Yeah, I can probably do that.

(4) aTweaks makes Balors into dual-wielders, which is cool. At present, an SCS-plus-aTweaks install (I think) leaves Balors unskilled in dual-wielding. I've moved SCS v22 Balors over to dual-wielding (with rather more minimal weapons than the ultra-cool aTweaks ones, tempted though I was to borrow them) and provided appropriate proficiencies. Could you flag the Balor weapons as Proficiency: Longsword and Proficiency: Flail/Morningstar, so that on an SCS/aTweaks install the other Balor proficiencies work correctly.

Pips in two-weapon style are added somewhere, but off-hand I couldn't tell you where.

(5) Why are Glabrezu 100% immune to acid? I didn't think that was on the 2nd edition immunity list? (I know the creature description says they're immune to nonmagical acid, but I assume most acid in-game they're likely to encounter is magical.)

Hmm, yeah, that should probably be reverted.

#3 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:51 PM

(5) Why are Glabrezu 100% immune to acid? I didn't think that was on the 2nd edition immunity list? (I know the creature description says they're immune to nonmagical acid, but I assume most acid in-game they're likely to encounter is magical.)

Hmm, yeah, that should probably be reverted.

Well, is there even a difference ? After all the acidity is a real water based chemical thing and not of a magical in nature...

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#4 DavidWallace

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:12 PM


(4) aTweaks makes Balors into dual-wielders, which is cool. At present, an SCS-plus-aTweaks install (I think) leaves Balors unskilled in dual-wielding. I've moved SCS v22 Balors over to dual-wielding (with rather more minimal weapons than the ultra-cool aTweaks ones, tempted though I was to borrow them) and provided appropriate proficiencies. Could you flag the Balor weapons as Proficiency: Longsword and Proficiency: Flail/Morningstar, so that on an SCS/aTweaks install the other Balor proficiencies work correctly.

Pips in two-weapon style are added somewhere, but off-hand I couldn't tell you where.

They're added in the balor PATCH_FUNCTION of c150_funs, but in a chunk of the function that's skipped if you're going for a scripts-only aTweaks install.

(5) Why are Glabrezu 100% immune to acid? I didn't think that was on the 2nd edition immunity list? (I know the creature description says they're immune to nonmagical acid, but I assume most acid in-game they're likely to encounter is magical.)

Hmm, yeah, that should probably be reverted.

Well, is there even a difference ? After all the acidity is a real water based chemical thing and not of a magical in nature...

Well, by definition, magic acid is magic, just as magic fire is magic.If you're worried about the realism of this distinction, add it to the list (after 120ft-long flying reptiles, dry underground tunnels that connect to the bottom of the ocean, and the resurrection of the dead).

#5 Daulmakan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:14 PM

(5) Why are Glabrezu 100% immune to acid? I didn't think that was on the 2nd edition immunity list? (I know the creature description says they're immune to nonmagical acid, but I assume most acid in-game they're likely to encounter is magical.)

Hmm, yeah, that should probably be reverted.

I'd endorse this change.

#6 Wisp

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:21 PM

They're added in the balor PATCH_FUNCTION of c150_funs, but in a chunk of the function that's skipped if you're going for a scripts-only aTweaks install.

Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. I'll fix it in the next version.

#7 DavidWallace

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:31 PM


They're added in the balor PATCH_FUNCTION of c150_funs, but in a chunk of the function that's skipped if you're going for a scripts-only aTweaks install.

Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. I'll fix it in the next version.

Well, it's fairly moot, since I'm now giving Balors dual-weapon fighting, and (I think?) the scripting-only option is only for SCS+aTweaks. But since I'm giving out proficiencies to the Balor anyway, I've also given it some mastery with its weapon choices, and I can't mirror that through to aTweaks because you rebuild the weapons. Hence the request to flag the Balor weapons. (There isn't an analogous problem with mariliths, as the other weapon-wielding fiends, since the aTweaks marilith weapon is already flagged as SCIMITARWAKISASHININJATO.

#8 aVENGER

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:50 AM

Hmm, yeah, that should probably be reverted.


Go for it.

It was likely an oversight on my part.

#9 Wisp

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:09 AM

But since I'm giving out proficiencies to the Balor anyway, I've also given it some mastery with its weapon choices, and I can't mirror that through to aTweaks because you rebuild the weapons. Hence the request to flag the Balor weapons. (There isn't an analogous problem with mariliths, as the other weapon-wielding fiends, since the aTweaks marilith weapon is already flagged as SCIMITARWAKISASHININJATO.

This did not make it into aTweaks 4.01. It's tentatively penned in for the next version. The yugoloth stuff is also slated for a later version.

Edited by Wisp, 17 September 2012 - 05:12 AM.


#10 DavidWallace

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:33 AM

No problem - it's not as if I've released a version of SCS that has it in yet in any case.

#11 -agris-

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

Pardon the question, and I'm probably getting ahead of myself but I have a question.

 

What is the result of installing SCS's improved fiends followed by aTweaks' PnP Fiends? From David's quote above, "all that's happening in an SCS+aTweaks install is that SCS is insulating the vanilla data from PnP-ification. In any case, this all seems to fit together smoothly" which sounds like aTweaks has very minimal affect. I bet I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble understanding what the composite experience would be.



#12 Wisp

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:56 AM

Essentially, you gain SCSII behaviour (mages summon fiends etc.) but the fiends themselves are more or less as per aTweaks (AI, abilities and optionally stats). At least that is how it is intended.



#13 Andrea C.

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:17 AM

In other words, installing SCS+aTWEAKS should make PnP-fied creatures as per aTWEAKS and everyone else's AI as per SCS. Correct?



#14 Bloodbane

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:32 AM

I notice that aTweaks has three options. Which option in combination with SCS would make Fiends the toughest?

 

I'm not too bothered about being faithful to PnP, but I do like the idea of being able to choose which fiends you summon, have a greater variety of summonable fiends, and see fiends summoning other fiends. I also like the 66 round duration for the Gate spell.

 

On the other hand, I don't want aTweaks to go lowering Fiends HP or caster levels, or taking away their nice SCSII spell-like abilities!



#15 Wisp

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:43 AM

If you use the third option, fiends will receive scripts (AI and spell-like effects) and items (claws, some immunities, etc.) from aTweaks, while retaining HP and such from SCS. The other two options affect things like HP in addition to scripts and items. Whether SCS+aTweaks is more difficult than plan SCS, I don't know.

#16 Bloodbane

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:06 AM

Thanks! As for the summoning spells (Gate etc...), I have another mod which makes changes to spells, the Arcane-Divine Spellpack. They are both Weidu mods, but which one will take precedence regarding these spells? Is install order important?



#17 Wisp

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:37 AM

I couldn't really say without knowing more about the mod, but SP won't let me download it without installing Flash, so **** that.

However, it's a fair bet you would have to install it before aTweaks (since it is most likely an overwriting mod).



#18 ancalimohtar

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:16 AM

I have SR, SCS v24, and aTweaks 4.03 installed, and Gate (while correctly letting me choose between Yugoloths and Tanari, since my caster is Chaotic) summons a tanari that is controllable for a brief second, but then goes hostile, casting dispel magic on my party (dispelling Prot Evil) and then attacking. Anyone see this bug before?
WeiDU.log:

Spoiler

#19 Wisp

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:52 AM

I have SR, SCS v24, and aTweaks 4.03 installed, and Gate (while correctly letting me choose between Yugoloths and Tanari, since my caster is Chaotic) summons a tanari that is controllable for a brief second, but then goes hostile, casting dispel magic on my party (dispelling Prot Evil) and then attacking. Anyone see this bug before?
~ATWEAKS/SETUP-ATWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #150 // PnP Fiends -> Mod-added fiends are not affected: v4.03


aTweaks is not involved here. If you want aTweaks for these summoned fiends, you need to install one of the other subcomponents of PnP Fiends. (Also testing shows that the fiends behave the same way without aTweaks installed.)

#20 ancalimohtar

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:57 AM

But my own Gated fiends are not mod-added. Or what do you mean?

Edited by ancalimohtar, 05 September 2013 - 11:58 AM.

WeiDU.log:

Spoiler