149 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

I'm still having problems with the short duration of Channel Magic.

Could we see this HLA last for 3 rounds or even 4 instead of just 2?

Actually, I could be convinced to increase the duration to 3 rounds.

Something else that could be done with it, is give it a longer duration, but allow the player to end it early with a special ability.

This would be the bast solution, though it requires much more work - the same thing would be needed in the case of a few other HLAs as well, maybe we can work it out in v2.

Had some more fun with Energy Storm today

As I said you 2 months ago or so, there are several ways to use ES in a less-deadly way. None of them are perfect, but can make this ability muchmore useful in certain situations.

[Schatten]

its better not to put too much into v2. the creature revision will be much work i imagine.

[T.G.Maestro]

Don't worry, if we cannot finish a component, it simply goes for the next version. If we have a full-and-working v2, we will put the remaining ideas and plans to v3, then to v4, and so on . We have the time.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Just tried out a Totemic Druid ... you guys did a fantastic job on this one! Worked well & looks good to me.

[T.G.Maestro]

Again, I'm glad you like these components - BTW, did you used the Ancestral Spirit HLA in battle?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Yes, but it was just the default opening ToB battle without Ascension.

It worked well. Summoned Spirit Animals, cast Call Lightning, etc.

My only suggestion for improvement would be to build a nice script for it kind of like what has been done elsewhere for Nymphs.

I tried out some of the other Druid HLA spells too & the visuals were nice!

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I tired out a Skald & I was just wondering why your HLAs for weapons were all limited to 1 handed ones? I ask because I tend to go for two handed swords, spears, bows and the like with Skalds.

How about a Two Handed Weapon Specialization choice to go with the two existing ones? Maybe a Missile Weapon Specialization as well. I'm most interested in the TH one though.

[T.G.Maestro]

Yes, that one buggered me as well Rathwellin, I always felt that they lack a 3rd specialization HLA. For v2 they'll get it (Two-handed Weapon Specialization)

[Caedwyr]

...buggered....

*cough* lose the 'er'

As I said you 2 months ago or so, there are several ways to use ES in a less-deadly way. None of them are perfect, but can make this ability muchmore useful in certain situations.

Hmm, I haven't tried energy storm in depth, but I was under the impression that it would eat through your buffs as it progressed. Is regeneration not counted as a buff, or is it only combat, specific, and spell protections that are debuffed?

[T.G.Maestro]

*cough* lose the 'er'

Hehe, thanks for this one Caedwyr!

Hmm, I haven't tried energy storm in depth, but I was under the impression that it would eat through your buffs as it progressed. Is regeneration not counted as a buff, or is it only combat, specific, and spell protections that are debuffed?

Hmm, a good point. ES eats through your spell/combat/specific protections indeed, but I'm not sure if Regeneration would fall to any of those groups. I think it can only be dispelled by the classical Dispel Magic opcode (I'm not sure though ).
I will test it if I find the time.

[Caedwyr]

It should stay on in my opinon. Otherwise Energy Storm is an instant death move for any PC sorcerers.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

It depends. With near max HP my Sorcerers survived most of the time. With lower HP though you are correct.

[Caedwyr]

Personally, I think that draining the player of all their spells and doing near lethal damage to them is harsh enough. If it were up to me, I wouldn't strip all the protections off the player. It either forces power gaming or heavy use of reloading if an enemy manages to get a single shot off on the pc.


As to the current version, again this ability should be useable (and survivable) with all sorcerers, not just the power gamers who go out of their way to max out all stats. Regen will especially help these players.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Caedwyr, what can I say except that I agree with you again.

What I *think* that the guys were trying to do here was a ?last strike? kind of effect & weren?t nearly as concerned about usability on this one as on others. This idea sounded neat & ?made sense? to them in a theoretical way.

Personally I?m more of a ?rubber meets the road? kind of guy. I like neat ideas when it comes to BG ... but I like them a lot better when I can actually use them. As is, Energy Storm is neat looking in use and has a cool description, but the odds of me actually using it outside of testing are pretty much zero.

The negative effects of this spell are so severe and the range and area are so limited that these factors alone pretty much make it a last choice spell. If I have *any* other sort of damaging spell I?ll use those first ... only if those all fail & my PCs spellbook is empty would I actually be tempted to use this ability ... and in all honesty if I?m that desperate I would probably be more tempted to just use power word ?reload? instead.

I think that it is possible to preserve the original concept while making it more likely to actually see use. Were it up to me I would make the following changes to Energy Storm, pretty much in order of importance:

1. Make it a party friendly spell/innate. The Sorcerer is already loosing Dragon?s Breath & Comet. I don?t see why the Sorc couldn?t direct Energy Storm just enough to avoid damaging his friends. Hey we are talking 10th level ability here....

2. Either increase the area of effect *or* give this ability a range other than self. Though I?m much more prone to the former given what Energy Strom is suppose to be.

3. Have the ability protect the user like a no-save Otiluke's Resilient Sphere at the same time it is draining his life, spells, and other magic protections. The intense outpouring of energy at the ?heart? of the storm protects the Sorcerer even as it destroys him. This is a two edged sword. This protection should both prevent foes from harming him but should also prevent cheesy help from the party by doing things like having another party member using the Rod of Resurrection to heal him back up in the middle of the storm.

4. The unconsciousness at the end is cool, but it seems to have problems, witness my bug report when I used it in Slayer form. So instead have this spell apply temporary level drain to the Sorcerer at the end instead. If possible make it so that the Amulet of Power does not protect against the Energy Storm level drain.

5. Have Energy Storm randomly alternate between draining spells and draining HP. Have it so that at the end the Sorcerer might have lost all spells but few HP, vice versa, or somewhere in the middle. Or drop the spell loss alltogether in favor of the temporary level drain from above. Level draining + damage should be enough IMO.

[T.G.Maestro]

OK guys, lets discuss this a bit further.

As to the current version, again this ability should be useable (and survivable) with all sorcerers, not just the power gamers who go out of their way to max out all stats. Regen will especially help these players

Agreed, we won't touch regeneration bonuses.

What I *think* that the guys were trying to do here was a ?last strike? kind of effect & weren?t nearly as concerned about usability on this one as on others

Absolutely correct Rathwellin. It is a last move effect, and normally it should KILL the sorcerer without question. Thats the nature of such an action. It may sound (and may be) harsh, but high-level characters (like the party in ToB) are quite familiar with spells like Resurrection. Almost every one of them has seen the "Otherworld" at least once during the long journey (if you don't play re-load style, that is).

If I have *any* other sort of damaging spell I?ll use those first ... only if those all fail & my PCs spellbook is empty would I actually be tempted to use this ability ...

Actually, you start to understand it..! ES is not something like Dragon's Breath or Horrid Wilting - it is a self destructive ability, for the most hopeless situations. Once the sorcerer knows that there is no way out and he is going to die in a few seconds, he can activate this ability - to seal the fate of his attackers as well.

in all honesty if I?m that desperate I would probably be more tempted to just use power word ?reload? instead

Your choice. I use the reload option only when most of my party members are slain or are in scorching pieces.

1. Make it a party friendly spell/innate. The Sorcerer is already loosing Dragon?s Breath & Comet. I don?t see why the Sorc couldn?t direct Energy Storm just enough to avoid damaging his friends. Hey we are talking 10th level ability here....

Please, this is a joke, isn't it? ES is not something that can be controlled - once activated, the sorcerer loses control over his magical energies, his mind and his body as well - he lets loose a storm of destruction, and that won't be party friendly at all costs.

2. Either increase the area of effect

A much better idea. I will think about it, but I could live with an area increased by 50% in size. Also, I will try to reduce the casting time so it can be activated faster in combat (a casting time of 2 or 3 should suffice).

3. Have the ability protect the user like a no-save Otiluke's Resilient Sphere at the same time it is draining his life, spells, and other magic protections. The intense outpouring of energy at the ?heart? of the storm protects the Sorcerer even as it destroys him. This is a two edged sword. This protection should both prevent foes from harming him but should also prevent cheesy help from the party by doing things like having another party member using the Rod of Resurrection to heal him back up in the middle of the storm

I partially agree with this. I agree that the Storm should somehow protect the sorcerer from attackers, but I would choose a few offensive "protections" instead of a resilient sphere effect. Again, this spell is all about offense and destruction, it won't protect anyone from anything. What I could add is a short range Wing Buffet effect combined with an uncounsciousness effect on opponents who get close to the caster. This effect would blow away creatures (friend and foe alike) to a short distance (so they don't escape the radius of the storm this way) and maybe even make them uncounscious for a round if a save is failed.
I don't understand with the part that would prevent "cheesy" tactics from the party to help him out. Think of it, I don't think we should strip the option to at least try to help the sorcerer - a well organized and tactical party would clearly attempt to benefit as much from such a desperate action as possible. If it means cheesy tactic, so be it - if it is possible, why should we prevent it?

4. The unconsciousness at the end is cool, but it seems to have problems, witness my bug report when I used it in Slayer form. So instead have this spell apply temporary level drain to the Sorcerer at the end instead. If possible make it so that the Amulet of Power does not protect against the Energy Storm level drain

No, a Level Drain wouldn't be fitting, ES has nothing to do with Negative Energy. We will try to take care of the Slayer bug in time, but I don't feel changing an ability simply because the PC character might have a tiny problem with it in a very special case.

Well, thats all, I hope you understand the motives and can live with the current effects. Personally, I find this a most fitting ability, one that should be used by the greatest caution - again, we shouldn't really talk about how to save the sorcerer from dying, since this is a kamikaze ability.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Please, this is a joke, isn't it? ES is not something that can be controlled - once activated, the sorcerer loses control over his magical energies, his mind and his body as well - he lets loose a storm of destruction, and that won't be party friendly at all costs.

TGM, actually I wasn?t joking at all about making Energy Storm party friendly. I had three thoughts that lead me to think this.

First, it?s logical. Even if the Sorcerer can?t fully control this spell ability subconsciously, if nothing else, he will probably not want to hurt his allies and struggle to direct his magic accordingly. More than anything this was the logic behind my thinking about how I personally would like to see Energy Storm.

Secondly, Energy Storm is the closest thing to a replacement for Dragon?s Breath & Comet that the Sorcerer gets with Refinements. Just reading the description of these spells would not lead one to thing that they should be party friendly, yet they are. We are talking about magic here after all & more than that, we are talking about the absolute pinnacle of magic. These are the ultimate abilities. The Bioware 10th level spells are more powerful & better directed than the Wish spell or Time Stop. I?m not saying that just because it was so in an ummoded game that it should be so here, but I am saying that the precedent has been set & that it?s possible to go this way.

Third, in a similar vein to #2, balance wise Mages still get Dragon?s Breath and Comet. Sure Sorcerers are powerful but not having access to these two spells is still a pretty big hit. Making Energy Storm more useable would go a long way towards balancing this in my mind. I?m not thinking that Energy Storm should be something that should be tossed around at will, it *should* have side effects to prevent that, but it would be nice if the main PC Sorcerer could pull this out of his tail in a battle like Ascension and I don?t think that this is possible as the HLA is currently constructed.

I think that even a compromise would help this spell. Maybe if some of the damage was party friendly and some was not....

2. Either increase the area of effect

A much better idea. I will think about it, but I could live with an area increased by 50% in size. Also, I will try to reduce the casting time so it can be activated faster in combat (a casting time of 2 or 3 should suffice).

These would be good changes. Thanks for considering them.

What I could add is a short range Wing Buffet effect combined with an uncounsciousness effect on opponents who get close to the caster.

As for the wing buffet, that?s not a bad idea. The thing that I would worry about the most is that someone could get knocked out of the damage radius, but if you keep the buffet short enough and expand the radius that should be fine.

I liked the sphere effect because it could protect from both good & bad stuff. I was envisioning the Energy Storm as a literal storm of energy that explodes from the Sorcerer. His body floats in the middle of the effect in a cocoon of cascading energy, like the eye of a hurricane, that both protects him to an extent and drains him. I?m picturing an outflow of magic energy so intense that other spell energy (good or bad) and combat attacks literally cannot penetrate it. In this sense you could make Channel Magic a pre-req.

I was also thinking usability. Alone Energy Storm may kill the caster. If he takes damage in the middle of the effect it surely will. That?s a reload situation if your Sorcerer is the PC. Having the Energy Cocoon protecting from foes damaging spells would take this spell from suicidal to merely very risky. Having altered the probabilities this way it only made sense to me that there be a downside as well: no more party help.

No, a Level Drain wouldn't be fitting, ES has nothing to do with Negative Energy.

I was thinking more along the lines of ?draining the Sorcerer?s life? after it drains his spells. HP damage is one way to represent that. Level Drain and Con drains are another way. What I liked about level drain is that it can simulate draining spells as well as life energy (hp) at the same time. It just seems tailor made to do what the text description of Energy Storm says it does.

In my mind level drain does not equate to negative / undead energy.

Well, thats all, I hope you understand the motives and can live with the current effects. Personally, I find this a most fitting ability, one that should be used by the greatest caution - again, we shouldn't really talk about how to save the sorcerer from dying, since this is a kamikaze ability.

Where I?m coming from is usability. I, well my sorcerer PCs actually, *can?t* live with the current effects & that?s the problem. As this HLA stands I might select it for flavor much like I do with a ranger?s Tracking HLA, but I would never *use* it. And if I can?t use it then why is it in the game?

[Baltrek]

QUOTE 
3. Have the ability protect the user like a no-save Otiluke's Resilient Sphere at the same time it is draining his life, spells, and other magic protections. The intense outpouring of energy at the ?heart? of the storm protects the Sorcerer even as it destroys him. This is a two edged sword. This protection should both prevent foes from harming him but should also prevent cheesy help from the party by doing things like having another party member using the Rod of Resurrection to heal him back up in the middle of the storm


I partially agree with this. I agree that the Storm should somehow protect the sorcerer from attackers, but I would choose a few offensive "protections" instead of a resilient sphere effect. Again, this spell is all about offense and destruction, it won't protect anyone from anything. What I could add is a short range Wing Buffet effect combined with an uncounsciousness effect on opponents who get close to the caster. This effect would blow away creatures (friend and foe alike) to a short distance (so they don't escape the radius of the storm this way) and maybe even make them uncounscious for a round if a save is failed.

Just my 2 cents TGM, but since I was not testing, I may be missing something. It would seem to me that in the middle of a destructive vortex of magical energy like this, the odds of anyone being able to get close enough to attack them (or heal them) melee is a bit far fetched, as is the chance an arrow or a rock would make it through as anything but a log of charcoal and ash. It would seem that since the caster can unleash such a fury of energy, and magical attacks directed at the caster would be swept up in the storm, strengthening it if anything. All that said, perhaps an Otiluke's sphere (undispellable Sanctuary maybe?) seems the most realistic option. Realism as far as magic and dragons and undead go, that is. Hello Mass Heal. By the way, does this strip contingencies and triggers?

[T.G.Maestro]

OK, after browsing through your siggestions, I have to agree with a few of them. I intend to add the following modifications to ES (only for v2 I fear, but I'm going to try at least):
- Its area of effect will be extended, but it still affects allies as well;
- the sorcerer will be protected by a magical barrier similar to Resilient Sphere;
- Characters in the area of effect will be slowed;
- Everyone near the caster will be blown back to a short distance.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Sounds good! Can't wait to see it.

Edit: changes makes it sound a lot more like a 'storm' too!

[T.G.Maestro]

All right, I've finished the changes, and tested the ability a bit. ES became more powerful in many aspects, I'm not sure if we should leave it this way. Anyway, here are the results:

- once cast, the player becomes stunned;
- the storm will deal 7D10 points of various magic based damage to creatures every 3rd second until the duration expires (50' radius area)
- it slows creatures if they are in its area of effect if a save vs. spells at -4 is failed (50' radius);
- the magical outbursts will cause 50% spell failure in the area of effect (50' radius);
- the power of the storm knocks back creatures for a short distance every 3rd second if they fail a save vs. breath at -10 and they fall uncounscious if they fail the save at -2 (30' radius);
- the ability will consume all of the sorcerer's remaining spells and slowly eat up the caster's magical protections, with the exception of the most powerful ones;
- the storm will deal 2D10+10 damage/3 seconds to the sorcerer once the magical "fuel" is depleted;
- if the sorcerer survivies the storm, he/she falls uncounscious and would suffer from fatigue for a day.

What do you think?