29 replies to this topic

[Caedwyr]

I'll ask the question that will sure to be asked by TGM and Littiz. Do you feel the Volcano HLA is so powerful that it warrants a tiring effect drawback, keeping in mind the other changes Refinements makes and the difference in the new druid HLA compared to what they had before?

[Baltrek]

I always wonder how some people will disregard the development process to produce criticisms later. Although the SwashImoen was a surprise...

You can also target yourself with a fireball. People don't seem to have a problem with that. I don't ever recall seeing an area effect for malison, but it's there. Those arguements could go on forever, but that does not make them good ones.

I personally think Sorcs having innates, and mages having spells makes perfect sense. I fail to see any problem with that. Hmmm, and possibly the lack of damage dealing HLA's for them has something do do with that. Makes one wonder.

There's not really any reason behind it beyond "balance".

Exactly the point, actually.

[Littiz]

It's a bit of a shame sorcerers don't have much in the way of offensive spells, aside from Energy Storm, which explodifies them.

Their innates are mostly in the field of "metamagic".
All seemed to agree with the fact that for sorcerers HLAs as innates seem more fitting. It seems to us, at least.

Is the lack of magical balls when you cast innates intentional?

Uh?

I wish spells like Death Field and Energy Storm had animations which showed the areas they effected.

Very few spells in BG2 show that, or are definitely unclear in this aspect. I admit it has been a problem in a few cases: circle-like animations were nowhere to be found, so finding something for Sound Burst was really hard.

The animations used are more than eloquent in any case. Also a clearly marked area would make too easy for you to keep your party safe when using something like Energy Storms...

Volcano doesn't look particularly volcanic... the screen just shakes a lot and there are some vaguely fiery animations playing. Perhaps a meteor swarm-esque effect would be in order?

I hope you are kidding.
That spell is probably one of the most animations-haevy.
There also is a meteor swarm effect for each affected creature...

Scribe Scrolls doesn't actually seem to do anything.

You have to decide which spell to create...
Don't you receive the menu?
I assure that I've tried this ability, and it does work here.

Or maybe the whole post was a bad joke or something?

[khay]

I think the post was a little bit rude, though. I mean absolutely no offense at all, but it just seems that way.

[jester]

I always wonder how some people will disregard the development process to produce criticisms later.

You're right. N00bs like me are such assholes.

No, I think your suggestions will be well received as is any dedicated player's complaint. Not being overly picky in the wording or going straight for the pun sometimes hurts my arguments, so I can relate to that strategy, but not advice it.

If some of your observations are met with acclaim by other users, I am sure the refinements people will take note.

[Littiz]

quoting myself:

I know that people will attempt to do the most illogical things (and crazy mess) when using a game or a mod. This doesn't mean I have to sit down and attempt to list them all, and provide countermeasures for everything.

Why must I always be so prophetic??
Sigh...
I will fix Shadowless Kick, so that you won't be able to kick yourself.
JUST to show that I'm capable to do it.
Of course, you'll waste the ability in the attempt... senseless actions have a cost

Well, I'd argue that it's more significant for effects that are caster-centered, personally. But whatever, it was just an idea to make the spells more accessible.

Things MIGHT be revised, if there is a great consensus about such points, and if technical means are available.
I personally like things that way, though.

I don't understand. Mages have their spellbooks, sorcerers cast spells using an innate knowledge, yes? Therefore, a sorcerer's "spellbook" ingame represents his way of casting spells, right? Or have I got something here wrong?

The Spellbook was used just as a "practical" solution. Sorcs don't have a spellbook.
Yet, it could be accepted, since the spells were exactly the same.
But now we add some completely new abilities for which we wanted to *emphatize* the innate aspect, so they haven't been placed in the spellbook.
The lack of "magical balls" is again due to the "innate" status.
Think as you're concentrating and collecting the inner energies, before unleashing them...

About Volcano: don't you get the storm upon targets?
It's the same thing, I think. I'll leave the decision to TGM on this one, anyway.

About Scribe Scrolls: sorry again, but are you sure that you don't get the menu? It works for everyone it seems.
It's a menu in the style of Spell Immunity.
I thought it makes more sense to be able to choose what you're trying to do...

[Baltrek]

N00bs like me are such assholes.

If there is one thing that affected me for life from playing Diablo II, it is the complete and utter disdain of the tern N00b. I never use it, and would never say that to anyone. I will admit, perhaps I took the wrong tone from your post, and I have said that writing online is very difficult to portray certain emotions like irony and sarcasm. I do not feel, however, I was the only one who read your post that way.

One of my biggest problems is when someone who does not even bother to register unprofessionally picks apart something like this. I do not remember seeing you post very much under that name in the refinements forum during its later development. Please send me any mods you have completed, and I will test them with the same "critical eye" that you have cast here.

I do not mod myself, but also refrain myself from rudely criticising someone elses work, especially work that is fundamentally charity, before offering solutions.

You're right. Let's just not bother posting ideas for the mod.

You are literally a day late. I am sure the developers would implement your suggestions if they have merit (to be judged by them, and not me), and they are given in a somewhat less rude and coarse manner.

[SimDing0]

As a bonus, I now come in registered form...

The Spellbook was used just as a "practical" solution. Sorcs don't have a spellbook.
Yet, it could be accepted, since the spells were exactly the same.
But now we add some completely new abilities for which we wanted to *emphatize* the innate aspect, so they haven't been placed in the spellbook.

But you're introducing an inconsistency here, in that you treat sorcerer spells completely differently from Bioware, who use the spellbook as a representation of a sorcerer's casting technique.

The lack of "magical balls" is again due to the "innate" status.
Think as you're concentrating and collecting the inner energies, before unleashing them...

Gotcha. Cheers for clearing that up.

About Volcano: don't you get the storm upon targets?

I do. I get everything you describe; I just think what I propose might look better. Repeated Implosion animations and such are looking quite odd to me.

About Scribe Scrolls: sorry again, but are you sure that you don't get the menu? It works for everyone it seems.

Very odd. I'll check out the log for install errors, and a take a look at the spell myself.

I thought it makes more sense to be able to choose what you're trying to do...

I agree. I absolutely hated the totally random Alchemy and Scribing abilities.

[SimDing0]

One of my biggest problems is when someone who does not even bother to register unprofessionally picks apart something like this. I do not remember seeing you post very much under that name in the refinements forum during its later development. Please send me any mods you have completed, and I will test them with the same "critical eye" that you have cast here.

My released mods include:

The Glory of Istar Total Conversion - http://www.dragonlancetc.com/
Virtue - http://www.pocketplane.net/virtue/
Improved Oasis II - http://www.pocketplane.net/sim/
BG1Tutu Fixpack - http://www.pocketplane.net/tutufix/
Ding0's Tweakpack - http://www.pocketplane.net/sim/
Restored Drow Innate Abilities - http://www.pocketplane.net/sim/

If you would be willing to test all of these in a critical light, that would be highly appreciated. I always seek to improve my mods in any way possible.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Ding0 I think where folks are coming from on the ?development process? thing is that many of the very things you mention have been brought up. More than once in several cases. Folks had plenty of shots since this forum has been up to bring up red flags.

I shared nearly identical concerns about the Sorcerer prior to actually using the changes in beta-testing.

On page 3 of the HLA table discussion thread I started bitching about some of this very stuff. I felt like the changes unduly ?nerfed? sorcerers. I also felt like BGII had presented Sorcerers as something close to a kit of a pure mage & I brought up the very argument that if Sorcerers could ?innately? just know how to cast level 1-9 spells then why not level 10 spells like other BG mages?

What it boiled down to is that this mods creators didn?t see sorcerers as being a ?mage kit? and tried to build a HLA table to reflect this. Over time as I used the mod I really began to like the changes & started to agree with them that sorcerers *should* be treated differently than mages.

Making the Sorcerer HLAs innates has some interesting effects as well. They can be used while shapeshifted and in other circumstances when spells cannot normally be cast ... as I found out in testing when I used Energy Storm while in Slayer form. In fact last night I tested with the final release version as an Iron Golem and a Greater Wolfwere. Loads of fun!

Loosing out on Dragons Breath & Comet weren?t small hits, but they weren?t end of the world either. It just encourages Sorcerers to use stuff like Meteor Swarm and Delayed Blast Fireball that they might have skipped over in the past when they could count on DB&C as HLAs for damage.

The biggest thing making 10th level spells innates for Sorcerers does is that it frees them to really *use* the 9th level spells they pick. I don?t know about you, but once my Sorcerer had IA, Timestop, Wish & DB those were just about the only 9/10th level spells I used. Now, by these changes, I feel a *lot* freer to pick different 9th level spells & I can actually use them.


I also bitched a lot about the side effects. In some cases I am still of the opinion that they are not warranted, but in others I really don?t mind. ToB is crazy powerful out of the box. A lot of what Refinements does is tone things down. That?s part of what this mod is about. In the end I?ll live with the side effects just for all the other fantastic goodness of this mod.


As for the animations, most are awesome. The lack of a clear ?edge? to the damaging effects is a bit tough, but I personally don?t mind it that much.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

And just for the record Ding0, I knew who you were & about your mods. It *would* help if you had registered though.

[SimDing0]

Yeh, um, sorry... Neil had to reset my forum password since I'd been having some weird problems since the merger.

And I'm just reading your big long post now.

[SimDing0]

Ding0 I think where folks are coming from on the ?development process? thing is that many of the very things you mention have been brought up. More than once in several cases. Folks had plenty of shots since this forum has been up to bring up red flags.

I think personally, there may be some merit in raising issues again once the mod has been released and the public has actually tried it out. I wouldn't have seen fit to comment on various issues without having actually played it for myself.

I brought up the very argument that if Sorcerers could ?innately? just know how to cast level 1-9 spells then why not level 10 spells like other BG mages?

I'm not claiming that they should be able to cast them like other mages, but that it should be consistent with how they are implemented.

Making the Sorcerer HLAs innates has some interesting effects as well.  They can be used while shapeshifted and in other circumstances when spells cannot normally be cast ... as I found out in testing when I used Energy Storm while in Slayer form.  In fact last night I tested with the final release version as an Iron Golem and a Greater Wolfwere.  Loads of fun!

It's interesting, but I don't really see the justification for making them usable while Shapeshifted. If I can't cast level 1 spells while I'm an Iron Golem, why can I cast level 10 spells?

I also bitched a lot about the side effects.  In some cases I am still of the opinion that they are not warranted, but in others I really don?t mind.  ToB is crazy powerful out of the box.  A lot of what Refinements does is tone things down.  That?s part of what this mod is about.  In the end I?ll live with the side effects just for all the other fantastic goodness of this mod.

But like I've said, I think balancing abilities without resorting to weird casting penalties is a worthwhile endeavour. See my comment about Volcano draining a caster while Earthquake doesn't... to me, this doesn't make much sense. It's contrived purely for balance.

As for the animations, most are awesome.  The lack of a clear ?edge? to the damaging effects is a bit tough, but I personally don?t mind it that much.

I agree that most of the animations are good. One of the things I like about this mod is the professional production; on the whole, it fits in well with the game, and this includes animations which do not look out-of-place.

[Littiz]

Sim, I think you're seeing things in a reversed perspective.
I'll try to be clearer:

• Those are NOT 10th level spells. No mage can cast them (not even an equivalent mage version) Those are a different thing, something only a sorcerer can do. Take Energy Storm. It's something like letting loose all of the energies that flow through the body of a sorc. It is NOT a spell, in fact, the sorc can barely control those energies.
  No components to use, no arcane words to mutter. Just abilities that require focus.
  
• HLAs are innates for everyone. Actually, Mages are the exception, now. You might consider that for mages the HLA is NOT the spell, but the *learning* of the spell. Something similar to the passive HLAs.
  
• This might change even for mages BTW. If we do the revision of True Dweomers, such spells won't be cast from the spellbook anymore, not even for mages.

EDIT: try to kick yourself in the next build B)

[Caedwyr]

Clerics, and Druids still use their 7th level spell slots for HLAs. Something that should be kept in mind for future revisions. Especially if parts of the proposed True Dweomer system are implemented.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Yep. A "Quest Spells" version like the proposed True Dweomer menu would be fun!