36 replies to this topic

[Rathwellin the Bard]

After all the posts on Energy Storm I decided to try to find ways use it to my advantage and to see if it was cheeseable last night. This is what I have learned.

Free Action via the Ring enables one to avoid the stun effect and lets the Sorcerer move around during the Energy Storm. Useful if your targets move out of range.

Maze, sadly, doesn?t seem work. I had the bright idea of putting a Chain Contingency on the PC to Maze them while helpless hoping that it would protect them from the Energy Storm. Unfortunately the storm seemed to stop when the Maze started. I?ll have to test more tonight to confirm this since it may be that just the animation vanished with the PC. I?m trying to test out Otiluke's Resilient Sphere for this too, but it?s darn hard to cast on yourself since it has a save.

I have found that Simulacrums and Projected Images make lovely Energy Storm bombs. Since both always have all innates that the PC has they are both able to wander somewhere an go boom. The cheese of having 3 projected images at one time works particularly well with this (something I?ve never used outside of testing mind you). The best part of using a clone is that it doesn?t matter if they die or if they loose all spells. Your PC stays fully up to snuff.

Since Energy Storm is an innate you can do it while Shapechanged. The Greater Wolfwere form seemed a particularly good one for this task with it?s regeneration. I imagine that Troll form would work too. I?m going to have to try it with the forms from Polymorph Self and the Cloak of the Sewers as well to see if their resistances help at all.

Speaking of Regeneration, as mentioned previously, having a friendly Cleric cast this on the Sorcerer really aids survival tremendously. Regeneration is one of several ?protections? that are not drained by the Energy Storm.

And in terms of protections, it may have been randomness, but it seems like the more buffs that the Energy Storm has to eat the less damage it does to my PC. So highly buffed characters are far more likely to survive.

I?ll post more on this later. Feel free to chime in with anything you see too!

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Oh, and just a quick almost related FYI.

The side effect for Spell Restoration is particularly handy for making your Sorcerer helpless & triggering a Chain Contingency set for that.

[Littiz]

What did I say? A powergamer!

they are both able to wander somewhere an go boom

oh my, aren't these troubled times...

[Rathwellin the Bard]

What did I say? A powergamer!

Powergame! For Goodness!

they are both able to wander somewhere an go boom

oh my, aren't these troubled times...

You know, I didn't even think of that. I apoligize if anyone is offended.

[Caedwyr]

they are both able to wander somewhere an go boom

oh my, aren't these troubled times...

Keeping away from the socio-political aspects, if the Rakshasa in the entry hall to Firkraag's lair can do it with Kobalds, why shouldn't the PC be allowed to.

[Baltrek]

You know, I didn't even think of that. I apoligize if anyone is offended.

LOLOL

I don't think too many suicide bombers play BG2!

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Well Troll form, both from Shapechange & from the Cloak of the Sewers, seems to break Energy Storm's script.

Things start out well enough. When you kick off the Energy Storm while in Troll form you get stunned. Then the damage starts kicking in; the troll regen helps here just like in Wolfwere form. Finally comes the part where the PC is supposed to fall unconscious ... and it appears that a Troll is immune to this effect.

At this point the PC is free to walk away from the final green Energy Storm animation & do whatever. His spells are disabled properly even when shifting back to human form but that green animation just lingers. It's still there even after a rest.

So consider that portion a bug report.

Now for the cheese. Combine the Cloak of the Sewers and Project Image or Simmy. Shapechanged an Image can fight ... so you send in your troll clone & drop an Energy Bomb. Then he can join the fight when it's done ... or even fight while the Energy Storm is going off if the Sorcerer had the Ring of Free Action equipped when the clone spell was cast.

To quote, "Evil meet Cheese! Cheese meet Evil!"

[Littiz]

I might *force* a natural form spell (relative to Shapechange) at the start of Energy Storm.
How does this sound?
I'd say it's cheeseable too much, already...

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I wouldn't mind. I may enjoy finding cheese, but it's pretty darn rare that I actually use it while playing.

Just an FYI but the green animation seems to be there after the spell even when I'm not shapechanged. It's almost like a marker where the spell was cast.

[Baltrek]

Forced shapechange seems fine. Actually, think about a very high level dispel magic instead. This would simulate "sucking" all magic energy from surroundings. Wait, would that effect polymorphs from an item? Should affect poly from a spell. I dunno, I can try it later I guess.

[Littiz]

Made some testing, it seems the forced change slows things too much, so I'm not fond of this solution.
For the moment I'll consider it as a powergamish abuse, we'll see.

[T.G.Maestro]

I might *force* a natural form spell (relative to Shapechange) at the start of Energy Storm.

This is a brilliant idea Littiz (hmm, and CREATIVE as well! ), but why not implementing it? What do you mean by

the forced change slows things too much

?
If anything, this is a must for this ability - while using it in shapechanged form sounds nice, it really wasn't meant to be used in that forms. Please try to change it, and tell me about that "slowing down".

And a final blow against ES-Cheese: Galactygon offered a solution a while ago, he said he can script ES to be unuseable by Simulacrum's and PIs...

[Rathwellin the Bard]

And a final blow against ES-Cheese: Galactygon offered a solution a while ago, he said he can script ES to be unuseable by Simulacrum's and PIs...

I would actually ask that you *not* do this at this time.

Are Project Image & Simmy bugged? Yes. But in more ways that just Energy Storm. Rather than focusing on the Sorcerer & Energy Strom to the exclusion of Mages, Fighter/Mages, ect. I would rather just wait for a future version where you can work on ways of fixing these two spells for *all* classes.

Is Energy Storm with a clone cheese? Yes. But not really worse than other clone cheese.

[T.G.Maestro]

It is worse. While other powerful clone cheeses can be extremely powerful and such, they shouldn't dmagae/kill the caster. ES should. And while I find it normal and acceptable that its negative effects can be weakened or even nullified by using the right tactics, I'd never accept a cheese that lets the sorcerer use this ability without suffering from ANY of the numerous downsides.

Hmm. Or maybe I have an alternate solution for this one, but only for the Simmy-cheese: I can make it so that ES can only be cast at a specified (high) level, so Simmies with 60% exp wouldn't be able to use it. This solution is far from perfect though.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Simmy is bugged it that regard it always gets all innates currently regardless of level.

TG, I actually consider exploiting the Scroll of Protection from Magic a *much* worse cheese than Energy Storm.

I feel pretty much the same way about using it with the Mind Control Circles from the underdark.

That's just two off the top of my head. Both of them are *far* more unbalancing than exploiting Energy Storm.

[T.G.Maestro]

A cheese is always a cheese, no matter how "unbalancing" it is - if there is a slight chance to reduce the number of such exploits, I'll use it.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I understand.

I would just prefer to see Simmy & PI fixed. Not have a workaround for just one element that you happen to be highly attached to.

[T.G.Maestro]

Again, I'm not the one capable to do this via scripts. If I find someone who can (or Galactygon decides to help me out here) we can discuss this further - until then, we have to live with the possible cheese exploits. As always, it is up to the player weather he/she decides to use cheesy tactic, or not.

[Littiz]

If anything, this is a must for this ability - while using it in shapechanged form sounds nice, it really wasn't meant to be used in that forms. Please try to change it, and tell me about that "slowing down".

Too many things happening at the same time.
The forced shapechange requires many effects, which added to the "normal" dozens of effects of Energy Storm, seem to slow down things too much.
I get the sounds before the visuals manage to start.
Might be different for another machine, but it just doesn't seem a perfect solution.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Instead of forcing a shapeshift to normal form could you code the Energy Storm such that it can't be launched when shapeshifted?