21 replies to this topic

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I?ve been looking at the new Bard HLAs recently and have had a few thoughts.

First I love the fact that only Bards now get UAI. That?s a huge selling point for actually playing a Bard now. I just wish that it had been this way from the beginning and that we had never had to hear about things like how uber a Kensai/Thief is backstabbing in full plate.

I also like some of the other new HLAs for Bards. The customized Bard Songs for each class & kit are super! Sound Burst, Mass Charm, & Lingering Song are all good too.

However with that said I feel a bit odd about a few things in the Skald & Blade HLA tables.

The Skald?s Bladed Weapon Specialization and Blunt Specialization HLAs don?t really seem to fit the way I play this kit. As mentioned elsewhere I tend to give them bows & two handed weapons.

Also, while it seems like the Skald?s fighting prowess gets a HLA boost there is not so much of one to the Blade ... a kit that seems *more* focused on fighting to me than the Skald does. Sure Ambidexterity is nice, but it doesn?t do nearly as much as the Skald?s HLAs.

On the flip side Enthralling Melody and maybe even Sound Burst might not be so appropriate for the Blade.

Finally, even without Refinements, the Bard is one of those few classes where it *always* is better to choose a kit than to play a vanilla class. Unfortunately Refinements doesn?t really change this. It would be really cool if the vanilla bard had a unique HLA or two to balance this out.

Given the above my suggestions would be to:

1. Change the Skald Weapon Specialization HLAs in some way. Either make them include TH weapons (i.e. staff falls into blunt & TH Swords, etc. fall int bladed) or change them altogether & have a ?Melee Weapon Specialization? HLA and a ?Missile Weapon Specialization? for Skalds. The melee version might have only two handed weapons or might include all melee weapons or just suitably ?Nordic? choices.

2. Give the Blade the original Skald Bladed & Blunt HLAs. They *are* the bardic masters of one handed weapons after all.

3. Give the Blade Whirlwind Attack. I?ve always been amazed that Swashbucklers got this and Blades didn?t. Never quite understood it. Sure they can use Improved Haste, but the Whirlwind Attack just seemed a natural outgrowth of their existing Offensive Spin. Better yet you could make an ?Improved Offensive Spin? that acts like a fusion of Offensive Spin and Greater Whirlwind attack, however if you choose this latter course then maybe the total number of picks for this ability should be limited to 3. Something to watch out for here ? without Tensor?s Transformation Bard THACOs stink.

4. Remove Enthralling Melody and Sound Burst from the Blade HLA list.

5. Create two new HLAs for vanilla Bards. My fondest wish would be to grant them access to a single 7th and 8th level spell per day via a HLA similar to the Mage?s Bonus Mage Spells. It would enable the Bards to actually *use* the Bronze Ioun Stone which grants an extra 7th level spell and who?s item description says that Bards can use it ... only they don?t get any benefit from doing so in an unmodified game since they don?t have 7th level spells.

6. Final new HLA for vanilla Bards would be a passive HLA that would grant them +1 CHA and a bonus like Immunity to Charm or some sort of saving throw bonus.

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks for the input Rathwellin!

The Skald?s Bladed Weapon Specialization and Blunt Specialization HLAs don?t really seem to fit the way I play this kit. As mentioned elsewhere I tend to give them bows & two handed weapons

I can understand your problem, but these aren't general problems. Most players tend to use one-handed weapons with bards.

On the flip side Enthralling Melody and maybe even Sound Burst might not be so appropriate for the Blade.

While Sound Burst should stay (it is a pure combat-oriented ability), I was thinking on removing EM as well.

Change the Skald Weapon Specialization HLAs in some way. Either make them include TH weapons (i.e. staff falls into blunt & TH Swords, etc. fall int bladed) or change them altogether & have a ?Melee Weapon Specialization? HLA and a ?Missile Weapon Specialization? for Skalds. The melee version might have only two handed weapons or might include all melee weapons or just suitably ?Nordic? choices

Sorry, but no. Please notice that you are asking all this because the current implementation doesn't fit your style - if we would change everything after someone complains about its content, v1 would have been released in 2010.

Give the Blade Whirlwind Attack. I?ve always been amazed that Swashbucklers got this and Blades didn?t. Never quite understood it. Sure they can use Improved Haste, but the Whirlwind Attack just seemed a natural outgrowth of their existing Offensive Spin. Better yet you could make an ?Improved Offensive Spin? that acts like a fusion of Offensive Spin and Greater Whirlwind attack

I like these suggestions. We (Littiz and myself) also had a brief discussion about Improved Spins in the first stages of development, but they never got implemented for v1. I can imagine a fitting special Spin instead of Enthralling Melody.

Create two new HLAs for vanilla Bards. My fondest wish would be to grant them access to a single 7th and 8th level spell per day via a HLA similar to the Mage?s Bonus Mage Spells

Again, good ideas. I'd like to avoid 8th level spells for them though, so I suggest a single bonus HLA (bonus 7th level spell), one that can be chosen 2-3 times. All bards would get this, but only vanilla bards could choose it multiple times.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Thanks for reading!

Most players tend to use one-handed weapons with bards.

I don't know. Sounds like we should set up a poll somewhere!

Honestly I haven't seen this mentioned tons elsewhere. Bard doesn't seem to be an overly popular class for some reason. But I started using TH weapons with Bards back in BGI days. It's always just made sense to me that non-Blade bards should rely mostly on bows. To me this then means no shield or dual wielding. So if a vanilla Bard (or Skald) has to melee then they should use the most powerful weapons available ... and in BGII this usually means two handed weapons ranging from the Impaler, to the Dragon's Breath Halberd, to the Staff of the Ram, to Gram.

Heck I even had Coran using Spider's Bane in BGI for this very reason.

It helps that, since they normally can't specialize, that Bards have all sorts of WPs and can usually use just about any weapon ... which can't be said for most NPCs in BGII.

But whatever. This isn't a make or break kind of thing to me. It's just that I felt like with the current Refinements setup that you were dictating to me that I should play a Skald *your* way since you are pretty much invalidating *my* way. I was hoping to find something that would accomidate more styles of play than just one (and that wouldn't be too much work).

I don't really see the same thing from any of the other HLA tables or abilities ... with the possible exception of the Sorcerer, but then again you've made me a convert there.

We (Littiz and myself) also had a brief discussion about Improved Spins in the first stages of development, but they never got implemented for v1. I can imagine a fitting special Spin instead of Enthralling Melody.

Sounds like fun. Another idea that I just had would be to combine the benifits of both Offensive and Defensive Spin.

I'd like to avoid 8th level spells for them though, so I suggest a single bonus HLA (bonus 7th level spell), one that can be chosen 2-3 times. All bards would get this, but only vanilla bards could choose it multiple times.

The 8th level thing is probably a good idea. I was thinking about AHWilt ... but after reading your post I realized that Similarcum = 2x song bonuses and that this might be a bit much....

[Littiz]

I think that the Bards' limit to 6th level spells is hard-coded.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I think that the Bards' limit to 6th level spells is hard-coded.

I don't think so. Ease of use restores the PnP bard table including 7th & 8th level spells. I'm pretty sure that this is just needs a 2da edit.

[Littiz]

That would be likely to affect all bards everytime, not a single bard via ability.
I haven't checked anything of course.

[Caedwyr]

This issue about the types of weapons a player uses is something I feel needs to be changed. Its ok to grant a bonus to certain styles, but there should be options that enhance the other allowable styles. If the bard was initially able to use a certain type of weapon, but not put as many stars into its proficiency as they could into others, then I could see having an enhancement for the proficiency that allows the greater number of stars.

The ranger HLA table currently strongly favours dual wielding, which has a slightly stronger argument. Still one suggestion that came up was granting a favoured weapon style HLA that would let the player put 3 stars into one weapon type. This HLA would be available to Paladins, Swashbuckers, Bards (maybe only certain types), Rangers.

[Galactygon]

About bard spell levels, yes even I myself have altered them to match PnP, so they are not hardcoded. So perhaps a good suggestion really is to stick level 50 rules into Refinements, and make a 9th level spell or two as a HLA. Already with level 8 spells, Bards are 100x better.

BTW: Paladins learn level 6 spells and Rangers learn level 5 spells in PnP, which are also implemented into the level50 rule packs.

Here are my suggestions -
1.) Wail of the Banshee (an innate fully identical to the 9th level wizard spell iteself)
2.) Howl of Pandemonim (actually it's a 6th level spell, but Refinements doesn't stay true to AD&D rules anyways so why not make it a 9th level spell?)
3.) Great Shout (exactly same as the IWD2 spell of the same name)

And perhaps include a couple of other Bard song choices that may be found in IWD2.

-Galactygon

[Feanor]

?Missile Weapon Specialization? for Skalds. The melee version might have only two handed weapons or might include all melee weapons or just suitably ?Nordic? choices.

I don't think "Missile weapon specialization" for skalds is a good idea, because the skalds are nordic warriors, who always prefer fighting in melee. Maybe such a HLA would be suitable for rangers. But, about one point, I agree with Rathwellin : bladed weapon specialization should also include two-handed swords.

[T.G.Maestro]

about one point, I agree with Rathwellin : bladed weapon specialization should also include two-handed swords.

I will modify those HLAs then - they'll include two-handed weapons too. Any idea where I should put spears?

About bard spell levels, yes even I myself have altered them to match PnP, so they are not hardcoded. So perhaps a good suggestion really is to stick level 50 rules into Refinements, and make a 9th level spell or two as a HLA. Already with level 8 spells, Bards are 100x better.

Sorry, but no. As I said earlier, I'd never allow bards to cast spells above lvl7. Just as Rathwellin pointed out, there could be too many cheesy ways to gain (illegal) advantage of a Simulacrum for example. And NO, I don't care that mages and the like have the same cheesy tactics with that spell, bards won't join their group .

1.) Wail of the Banshee (an innate fully identical to the 9th level wizard spell iteself)

There is Sound Burst instead of this, and it is more fitting IMO. I don't really find a pure necro spell fitting to this class.

2.) Howl of Pandemonim

What does it do?

3.) Great Shout (exactly same as the IWD2 spell of the same name)

Yes, I intended to add this to their table, but somehow forgot it. Anyway, would you suggest adding a new projectile for this one, or could it use a slightly altered Prismatic Spray .pro file for example?

[Feanor]

About bard spell levels, yes even I myself have altered them to match PnP, so they are not hardcoded. So perhaps a good suggestion really is to stick level 50 rules into Refinements, and make a 9th level spell or two as a HLA. Already with level 8 spells, Bards are 100x better.

Remember, guys, that level 8 and 9 spells given to bards could alter even the concept of the class. The bard will become more powerful than a fighter/mage, because he will have access to highest level spells and the his own special abilities.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

However the conter argument is that Fighter/Mages get 9th & 10th level spells, have better THACO, more HP, *and* get to use more powerful equipment.

I'm not into turing the Bard into some kind of uber munch machine but I don't find 8th level spells to be particularly unbalancing. I could live with 7th level spells only and in fact I obviously *have* lived with the 6th level spell cap.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

about one point, I agree with Rathwellin : bladed weapon specialization should also include two-handed swords.

I will modify those HLAs then - they'll include two-handed weapons too. Any idea where I should put spears?

Thank you TGM!

Halberds are an issue too. My vote would be to put them in 'bladed' weapons. First the *do* both have blades of sorts and second there is the fact that so many creatures require blunt damage to injure. IMO The fact that you get more WPs with bladed is blananced by the fact that those weapons don't aways work as well in the game.

[Feanor]

However the conter argument is that Fighter/Mages get 9th & 10th level spells, have better THACO, more HP, *and* get to use more powerful equipment.

You have forgotten about the Use Any Item ability for the bards, so they could use the same equipment as the fighter/mage.

Any idea where I should put spears?

Bladed weapons, because spears do piercing damage.

[T.G.Maestro]

Bladed weapons, because spears do piercing damage.

It will be bladed weapons then.

[Trouveur]

Sorry, but no. As I said earlier, I'd never allow bards to cast spells above lvl7. Just as Rathwellin pointed out, there could be too many cheesy ways to gain (illegal) advantage of a Simulacrum for example. And NO, I don't care that mages and the like have the same cheesy tactics with that spell, bards won't join their group .

2.) Howl of Pandemonim

What does it do?

Hum, normally bards should cast level 8 spells. I think that many players will use Refinement with the PnP spell table of EoU.

About Howl of Pandemonium:

Spell : "Howl of Pandemonium"
Level : 6
Range : 15 meters
Duration : Special
Casting time : 6
Area of effect : Sphère de 10 mètres de rayon ou cône de 20 m x 6 m
Saving throw :Special



Description du jeu

Les vents déments de la Terre Hurlante (le Pandémonium) s'élèvent et environnent tout le monde de leur insupportable cacophonie.

Howls of Pandemonium stun all the ennemies on the screen. It renders all the sonic attacks unusuable and devies non magical missile. Creatures of 2 HP or less are rendered KO during 2-12 *5 minutes if they fail their saving throws. For the others, failing their saving throws will result in confusion.

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks for the info Trouveur!
I don't think that we'll add it to their table however, I see nothing special in this one.

[T.G.Maestro]

I suggest making a new projectile (an invisible cone), since implementing the IWD2 one requires serious scripting and coding and headaches. So yeah, unless you wish to go through all that, just make it invisible.

You mean the Shout visual or the Shout projectile? I was thinking on using a cone projectile from BG2 and assigning the Shout animations to it.