55 replies to this topic

[Radagast-The-Brown]

You shouldn't be able to backstab them anyways, since they're huge and not humanoid.

True, but in this case, the true sight should remove a thief's hide in shadows, so the thief can't backstab. Of course, if the dragon had the right items on it, this can't happen anyway.

Actually the dragons "could" have permanent true sight and no it wouldnt be cheating..very natural...dragon senses are never wrong...and a dragon must not be backstabbed even by thieves in hide in shadows...A dragon can sense the danger immediately let alone its size only can prevent any backstab...


re : This allows a dragon to cast true sight when you try to sneak up on it. Therefore, you shouldn't be able to backstab it either.

Of course u can still backstab him..remember the assassinate ability? it still works unless the dragon is completely IMMUNE to backstab...hence the item is needed...

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 29 September 2004 - 12:18 PM.

[Stone Wolf]

Dragons can be fooled by illusions, though, so constant True Sight would be cheesy.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

Dragons can be fooled by illusions, though, so constant True Sight would be cheesy.

Who says they can be fooled?? all the years I play ad&d I never saw or heard of a DM who actually let the pcs fool a dragon in ANY way...these beings are just supernatural...all their senses are very keen and a natural outcome is that its practically impossible to play with them in any way let alone fool them with illusions....

[Psykotik]

bugs list update; seanas, you've got a huge list of beta fixes... unbelievable. Thanks a million for your work.

(as you can see, it is no more the CC only bugs list, since the community here is very reactive )

[hlidskialf]

Dragons can be  fooled by illusions, though, so constant True Sight would be cheesy.

Who says they can be fooled?? all the years I play ad&d I never saw or heard of a DM who actually let the pcs fool a dragon in ANY way...these beings are just supernatural...all their senses are very keen and a natural outcome is that its practically impossible to play with them in any way let alone fool them with illusions....

While difficult, it is certainly not impossible. Advanced illusions have all sensory components. To grant dragons a non-listed immunity to them just because they are the posterchild of fanstasy settings is unrealistic. Dragons can be fooled, you just REALLY have to work at it.
(ie. Agreed that low-level illusions/invis would be ineffective, but not high level spells.)

[seanas]

ok, can we come to some consensus about what immunities the TDD dragons should possess that they currently lack?

i can add immunity to backstab and immunity to charm, no problem. is there an opcode that allows immunity to lesser illusions and invisibilities, or is there a script block i should add to their .bcs to allow them to effectively detect invis?

[Stone Wolf]

Humans depend primarily on sight, so we could be fooled by visual illusions. Those likely wouldn't fool a dragon, since they could still hear and smell the target (or NOT hear and smell, as the case may be). If you take care of hearing and smell as well, a dragon can be fooled.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

ok, can we come to some consensus about what immunities the TDD dragons should possess that they currently lack?

i can add immunity to backstab and immunity to charm, no problem. is there an opcode that allows immunity to lesser illusions and invisibilities, or is there a script block i should add to their .bcs to allow them to effectively detect invis?

These dragon immunities are COMPLETELY ESSENTIAL and natural :
1.Web, entangle, hold, slow etc.
3.Unconcsiousness, blind, stun, ALL mind affecting.
(Affecting a dragon's mind is ridiculous)
4.Their powers.
6.Backstab, Sleep, Silence (A dragon doesnt use verbal components anyway)
8.Illusion Low lvl spells ELSE - ALL ILLUSION SCHOOL

These r ok for now...

[hlidskialf]

I disagree with #3. Blinding is perfectly valid. (It's just a penalty to rolls, not a complete disable.) As well I do not think that a dragon's mind is THAT invulnerable. Some dragons have a lower intellegence, some a higher. In PnP THAT was how determinations on what can be effective against them should be done. Same for a cRPG. Granted the limitations of the BG games, and the very high saving throws dragons have, I don't think that you can justify immunities in that area. (Their innate magical nature, size, etc... is what gives them those high saving throws.)

[Ferrumach]

I think, that at least the dracolich merits all the list indicated by radagast ( for lots of reasons ....)

Edited by Ferrumach, 30 September 2004 - 11:47 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

For mind-affecting spells, I think it's better to assign immunities based on whatever wisdom you think a dragon might have. Maybe (and I feel unclean just posting this) 3E stats could provide a guideline. *shudders*

[Radagast-The-Brown]

I disagree with #3. Blinding is perfectly valid. (It's just a penalty to rolls, not a complete disable.) As well I do not think that a dragon's mind is THAT invulnerable. Some dragons have a lower intellegence, some a higher. In PnP THAT was how determinations on what can be effective against them should be done. Same for a cRPG. Granted the limitations of the BG games, and the very high saving throws dragons have, I don't think that you can justify immunities in that area. (Their innate magical nature, size, etc... is what gives them those high saving throws.)

ok but only with the blind part...but intelligent or dragons with high wisdom should at least have a bonus to their mind affecting rolls...and no they dont have good enough saving throws...once u throw a greater malison its just a matter of seconds to affect them with any mind affecting....r u telling me that a blind spell is capable of blinding such a huge face?...the blind effect is supposed to provide light between the eyes of a creature so that no eye will see far enough...but the dragon has such a huge face that the eyes are separated by quite a big distance...thats why I think they should be immune...
As for the confusion, charm, domination, stun, hold, unconsciousness effects, they r just "ridiculous" if they affect a dragon...no DM would leave such a possibility...so these r immunities for certain..most would agree...
(Besides dragons MUST be boosted anyway-they r too easy for the xp in BP - The same applies to the game parties (like Drizzt) but this is already known)

And as for the dracolich we all know that it should have all lich AND all dragon immunities...so no quarrel there...

[hlidskialf]

I won't argue that dragons need to be boosted in BP, but considering I DM'd for about 20 years, and judged the effects that can/can't affect a dragon during that time by the individual AND the rules, I think I have some merit to my points. (There is a reason that dragons didn't/don't have immunities specific to the points you made listed in the various MM guides.) If you DO disagree with how they are done, now's the perfect time to learn modding and release your "Beefed up Dragon" mod.

[Stone Wolf]

I've only DM'd for about 15 years, but I agree with Hlid. If you want some immunities to mind-affecting spells, pick out a Wisdom for the dragon and see what that gets you.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

Ok ok i know that maybe its a little "much" all that I'm suggesting for the dragons but think this...first of all the dragons are supposed to be super-magical beings...not to mention that most dragons are super intelligent or with an ultra wisdom...besides theyve spent countless years their knowledge is unsurpassed... Such a being is just unacceptable to be affected by a lesser mortal by such spells or effects....I know most would agree with this for i have done these kind of conversations with many dms but still if u think I am wrong at least give all the dragons a 18wisdom (which is not that much for such a being)...and some mind affecting immunities at least to the obvious spell effects...(charm, confusion etc).

I just think that the dragons DESERVE to be ultra-buffed not only for the above reasons but because in a game such as baldur's gate series u get SO HIGH LVL and become so powerful with all the SUPER-loot, that powerful beings should be ultra-buffed so that they have a chance at least which they deserve...besides they use A.I. not human logic...they deserve better treatment anyway don't u think?

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 03 October 2004 - 10:06 AM.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

I also CONFIRM 3 other Bugs which Psykotik mentioned :

20) Watcher's keep - When fighting Asgaereth (end of third level), ALL his lieutenants don't turn hostile.
PS20 : I also got another bug with Asgaereth:During the battle which he did with the construct or any of the creatures summoned by deck of many things in the duel, he actually attacked me instead of the creatures showing up..his lieutenants though killed the summons hopefully but during this time he kept attacking my party...(This became frustrating when he got damaged by the acidic katana for the attacks he made and this turned him hostile of course so I had to load).

26) Watcher's keep, third level - when fighting Aranthis, a Tiefling (on the right) doesn't turn hostile. (This is AR3005 to make it easier for u)

29) Watchers keep - if i try to get the 4th blue one a certain mage should be spanned (i think FSMage04).But then the game crashes. (meaning CTD)

Also in watcher's keep 3rd level (AREA : AR3014) I found another minor bug...The slave wraiths never appear, but when the demon wraith is killed all slave wraiths get freed and u get the xp from each one of them while u got no danger from them...
(of course without the slave wraiths the battle was REALLY piece of cake)

Just thought I should report these here...

Edited by Radagast-The-Brown, 04 October 2004 - 06:15 AM.