Oops - forgot to log in - that was me.

- Imrahil

I also get the banter about her not believing in any gods (although, if you press her, she admits to liking Malar & Garagos) repeatedly.

what do you mean by repeatedly? You mean she doesn't stop talking? Or if you go constantly via the same dialogue-loop? For that is quite normal

Meaning I get the same banter over & over, as if it were new. I'm guessing there's supposed to be a flag or something that says the banter has already occurred, but it's not getting set, so you see that particular one several times.

Merely looking at the AD&D rules I did as would be normal. I am afraid I just disagree on it.

Fair enough.

...Ariena-Randomly-Leaves-For-No-Reason...

I can understand and I have no idea why she does that. I don't have it in my game, so it is hard to test... please tell me if she merely quotes that line and leaves and a string reference might be nice, for she uses that sentence several times and I don't know from what dialogue that is triggered...

She says it when a normal banter should come up, when we're sitting still or walking along, just quoting that one line & then leaving, but then (if I go to The Docks) she comes towards the party, like NPC's normally would if you booted them manually, & says her line as if I'd kicked her out. Hope that's helpful - sorry I don't know the string reference, though.

- Imrahil

I had a little problem tough , when i used the Ctrl + I to see all the talk , she left and she get back in the Dock Districk , sure i get back there and she will join me again , the only problem is if im far like in the underdark i have to finish it without her and get her back when im in Akathla..:-( that is the only problem i had and she did it 4 times already...

Hey - I'm in the midst of an Ariena play-through &, while I'm not done, this was annoying enough to go ahead & point out that I get this, too. I tend to AdvanceRealTime a bit & also leave the computer sitting & paused in order to get NPC banters, & it seems like every third one is Ariena leaving for no reason. We're just sitting there, letting Real Time pass, then she says "You is stupid to send Ariena away for that." & she leaves the party.

I didn't do anything or say anything to her. She goes back to her spawn point & when I run into her, she force-talks me & acts like I kicked her out ("You sees too much blood, pantywaist?"), at which point I say "No, not yet. You better kill some more enemies for me Ariena" & she rejoins.

I also get the banter about her not believing in any gods (although, if you press her, she admits to liking Malar & Garagos) repeatedly.

I may as well give an update while I'm here on the other things I've found to this point...

- First, she's pretty fun & unique. I like her, in general, but with that said...

- Even a 7 Int is probably too high for the "Me is...", "Ariena no like", etc. banters. She sounds more like a 5 Int to me. 7 is just below "normal" (where 9-12 is average), but she isn't below normal, she's kind of on the dumb side (not a critique of her banters, just that her Int should be lower to reflect her banters).

- I know where you're going with the "she's proficient with *every* weapon" idea, but the fact is, a total of 21 proficiency stars is, IMO, too much (7 would be about expected for someone of her level). You could have her not be proficient with *every* weapon (say, take away 10 stars) & get the point across without it seeming so power-game-ish.

- Why does she have 20% resistance to Cold & Magical Cold, 50% Resistance to Acid, & 100% Poison resistance?

- when she asks CHARNAME is he was ever a captive, all you can talk about is Candlekeep - this seems to ignore the much more recent instance in which CHARNAME was a captive of Irenicus.

- Ariena interjects when talking to Lady Delcia Caan (Nalia's aunt), but after her interjection, the dialogue stops & you don't get the normal Lady Delcia conversation, so Lady Delcia just stays there instead of leaving like she normally does & "has nothing to say to you"

- similarly, when meeting Valygar, after you ask him to join you, Ariena says "Me no think it smart to makes big enemy...", but then Valygar doesn't join the party & just sits there & "has nothing to say to you" - I had to CTRL-Q him to get him in the party

- when first entering the Guarded Compound, Ariena starts a fight with Sion, but that Sion is un-killable - he's supposed to teleport away - if you fight him, he sits at Near Death forever - I had to briefly boot Ariena from the party right when entering so she wouldn't trigger an unwinnable fight.

- when confronting the Beastmaster in the Copper Coronet to free Hendak, if you start a fight with him, Ariena says "You better starts to run, cause it no helps. Me fight many animals and me win of all of them!" (which, by the way, has one too many "of"'s at the end), then she turns hostile on the party & never goes unhostile. I had to boot her briefly again to get past this. If she's actually supposed to go hostile on the party, it's not clear why from the dialogue.

- some spelling stuff...

-- in the description of Ariena's Armor, it says "Therefor it is not uncommon..." (should be "Therefore")
-- also in the description of Ariena's Armor, it says "Though Ariena faced some of here most..." (should be "her")
-- also in the description of Ariena's Armor, it says "...even if it did not fend the blow of all together" (which should be "off altogether", or even better "off completely")
-- with Jaheira, when discussing Khalid, Jaheira says "He was a gentle and kind soul and therefor brave." (should be "therefore")
-- with Yoshimo, when discussing why he's so far from home, Yoshi says "I wondered a bit up the sword coast..." (should be "wandered" & also Sword Coast should probably be capitalized)


I'm about to head to the Underdark - I was running through all the surface quests first with various Bio-NPC's to see as much banter as possible. I'll report back if I find anything in the Underdark or in later chapters. I just found the Ariena-Randomly-Leaves-For-No-Reason thing to be very irritating already.

- Imrahil

Is it possible (well, ok, I'm reasonably sure it's possible, I guess I'm really asking if it might happen) to separate the "Many of the original in-game NPC's have gained portraits" portion into a separate, optional component? I'd like to be able to install the portraits even when I don't plan on doing TLR in a particular install. I tend to re-install fairly often, only selecting the MOD's I want for a couple of run-throughs, then re-install again for the next set of run-throughs, but would like to have the new portraits appear even when I'm not planning on playing the Irenicus-related parts of TLR.

- Imrahil

I'm guessing you haven't been back to see Pharod since you told him you'd found the Sphere?  IIRC, it's perfectly normal to be sans Spere for a bit, but you do recover it if you go back & visit him, so head on back & see if you stumble across it, for one reason or another.

- Imrahil

      The description of some items in BG2 like Thracie's Plate, Orc Leather, Ring og Human Influence. And many such items from AD&D. 

The game describes it as follows:
~CHARISMA: Charisma measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead. This ability is important to the druid, bard and paladin.
Minimum: <MINIMUM>
Maximum: <MAXIMUM>~

Incidentally, none of those item descriptions you mention state that it's looks, and T'rahcie's Plate is the only one which comes remotely close to implying such a thing. (~This armor's curse sickened Libol and hideously disfigured him, and his wife fled from him in disgust.~)

Orc Leather: "...Finger bones, ribs, and skulls cover the armor, acting much like the traditional metal rivets. Powerful orcish enchantments give the armor special resistance to missile attacks, but the repulsiveness of the armor reduces the wearers charisma."

Combined with T'rahcie's Plate, I'm on the side that says that Charisma is *in part* looks.

I think the Nymph Cloak was supposedly commissioned by some noblewoman or other to make her husband seem less gross in general, right? I always seemed to read it as him acting less like a slob than actually looking prettier

Nymph Cloak: "The fabled Nymph Cloak is renowned for its ability to increase the Charisma of even the most surly dwarf. A Cormyrean noble hoping to make her politically convenient marriage more palatable apparently went to great expense to obtain one for herself and another for her husband. This cloak may be used to charm one person, once per day." (just an FYI, not really all that relevant, just a copy-paste for curiosity's sake)


I'm of the opinion that Charisma is *mostly* leadership & persuasiveness. It also encompasses looks, given that Comeliness is not an official stat.

My main problem with MOD NPC's that have Charisma requirements is that, in the dialogues of the NPC, all they ever talk about is how HAWT CHARNAME is. There's rarely a reference to how inspiring in battle he/she is or how deftly that last in-party bickering was handled.

I don't like exceptional stat requirements in any stat, as I've stated, but I particularly don't like Charisma requirements when they are defended by stating that Charisma is more than looks, but supported by dialogues which focus solely on looks.

- Imrahil

Not that it really matters since I sign my posts & all, but that was, like, totally me, or something...

- Imrahil

Ironically, I had a player who was no less categorical than you in her statement that 'Kivan now never shuts up' after I added interjections, following your categorical statement that 'any good mod should have lots and lots of interjections/Kivan has nothing to say'.

It's not really ironic. If someone says "this meal needs salt", even that person may balk if you add too much salt (incidently, I'm pretty sure that person's a he, despite the female avatar portrait).

The mere existence of people who hold a different view is not very persuasive.  Their reasoning might be, but their existence isn't.

I find it a bit funny that this statement contradicts your earlier idea that 'because it can be justified it does not have to be implemented."

I don't see the contradiction - the reasoning may be sound, it may not. Either way, it doesn't mean something must be implemented.

Relax. You do not have to win some sort of an argument, no matter how.

I think you may be reading the wrong emotions into my posts. Try less "irritated & defensive", more "amused & a little bewildered" & you'll be closer. Maybe I don't use enough emoticons.

- Imrahil

Ah, the eternal question of whether or not "If you don't like it, don't play it!" is an appropriate response..

Uhm, certainly a better one than: "You are going to play it and enjoy it, mister! *Swoosh!* *Slap* Are you enjoing it *slap* Are you BLOODY enjoying it?!!!"

and, from another side of the spectrum:

"Heed my critisism *slap* I do not care what you think, but HEED MY CRITISISM!* *slap*, *slap*. The world will end if you do not heed my words!"

I doubt that you turn a modder into your slave or indeed have some sort of a mind domination spell, you are going to get a "Now I see that my deeply beloved and years-in-the making concept needs to be drastically changed. I am so inferrior to you... and so greatful for pointing out my infinite stupidity. I am going to refuse food, drink anmd sleep until the mod is made entirely to your satisfaction. Right away, O wise and omnipotent Master! Right awaaaay!" in reply to every and all points on which you disagreed with him/her.

Wow. I think I'll just sit here in stunned silence for a bit...

...and then point out that I'm simply offering my opinion & giving my reasoning to a question that was asked (I'm guessing this is a bit of spillover from our Kivan discussion, but if you recall, you asked me to read through the dialogue files & give my specific opinions, which I did).

Using the current variant of IE it is entirely possible to make Korgan available only for a short period of time ; have scenes added that will show his quest aftermath, add an encounter with him and his new gang if PC was too slow on his quest. Engine does not place any limitations whatsoever on this. Writing and coding time of BioWARE guys does (or their desire to make the game more linear etc).

Technically that would be simulating the effects of the events I described rather than having them actually occur, but since it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand I'll simply concede the point & not use the word "engine".

On another hand, certain players will be mightily irritated that Viconia lusts after their PC with CHR 7 or at having an option to talk cohesively and even wittily if their intelligence is 3. So what adds enjoyement for you as a player might substruct it from someone else's.

If you scroll back up a few posts, I did say that certain minimums make sense to me. It's requiring exceptional stats that I, in my own personal opinion, with no expectation that others must or will agree, am not so much in favor of.

If you ever read DA boards, for example, there is population of players that want dialogue, events, fights as realistic as possible to excrutiating detail, and there are those who want it as streamlined as possible.

The mere existance of people who hold a different view is not very persuasive. Their reasoning might be, but their existence isn't.

- Imrahil

If it is a particular mod, I think you need to forward your complaints to a particular modder. If it is not a particular mod, just select the mods that follow Weimer's rule of being wide-open.

Ah, the eternal question of whether or not "If you don't like it, don't play it!" is an appropriate response...

What does Infinity Engine have to do with it? Engine prohibits you from having 7 NPCs in the party or dual-classing elves.

You are speaking of plot progression, I think.

It's probably just quibbling over semantics, but the fact that Korgan can't go off & do his own quests or meet up with a different party or run out of money to pay his tab is more of an engine limitation, I believe. Besides that, though, it *also* makes it easier & generally more fun for the player (especially one who doesn't replay the game dozens of times) to have Korgan available at any time, even if that is not the most realistic approach.

While it is essential for the game mechaniques (ie for the game to proceed) that Irenicus waits for you in the Spellhold (though even that can be altered), it is non-essential that every PC could romance Viconia. It does not 'further the game'. So, I fail to see a problem if she dismisses an ugly weakling of a PC in full accordance with her personality.

It would be realistic to only be able to recruit Viconia if you go to the Gov't District at Hour X on Day Y. Before that, she's not there. After that, she's been burned. Allowing the player to pick her up at any time does further the game, by giving the player more options. If she required a Str 14+, Cha 15+ CHARNAME, that might be more realistic as well, but not having those restrictions gives the player more options & adds to the enjoyment (thus "furthering the game"). Just because something can be justified doesn't mean it should be implemented.

- Imrahil

I'm pretty sure that Feanor is referring more to "Stat Requirements: Are They A Good Idea?" & not so much to "Stat Requirements: Can They Be Handled by the Infinity Engine?" (if you need confirmation, click on his .sig, which apparently refers to an irritating foreign substance which, when covered by a mollusc's saliva for a period of time, has a small chance of becoming a valuable human commodity ).

Regarding Stat Requirements: Are They A Good Idea? I tend to lean more toward the Weimer side. I can see some very minimal requirements being OK (e.g. Int 7, Wis 9, etc.), but I'm pretty much opposed to requiring exceptional (15+) stats to initiate a romance.

The game is... a game. Simple enough. Sacrifices of realism often must be made to accomodate the engine. Sure, Korgan, in real life, wouldn't wait around the CC for 2+ months in case you happen by, but to further the game, he does. Yes, Viconia probably would only want someone who was exceptionally strong & charismatic, but to further the game, she doesn't. Odds are, if you spent a month doing side quests, Irenicus would accomplish his goals & you'd be SOL, but he waits for you, to further the game.

Similarly, an NPC might have ridiculously high & inexplicable standards, but, to further the game, he/she probably shouldn't, & most CHARNAME's should be able to experience any dialogues he/she wants to. IMO, of course.

- Imrahil

Hey - managed to finish up this weekend, & I found a few more things...

- I had the conversation about "we make a great team - Cyric & Bhaal" twice, then right after it ended the 2nd time, I had the "So have you given it some thought?" conversation

- in one of the Anoman banters, Anomen uses the phrase "I do not reckon...", which is the way Kido talks, but Anomen would probably be a little more formal - something like "I do not suppose..." or "I do not believe..."

- in the Cernd banter about Kido wanting to be infected with lycanthropy, Cernd says "I do not think you are possible of such a feature, Kido." which sounds strange - could probably stand to be reworded a bit ("I do not think you are capable of such a trait, Kido.", perhaps)

- I was expecting Kido to have something to say to Naljier Skal - the Bard in the Asylum, but I didn't see anything - that'd be a good place for him to speak up, I think

- finally, when you first get to Hell, Kido approaches CHARNAME & says his line "Who! Nice place here..." (note that it should probably say "Whoa!" instead of "Who!"), but it happens *before* the game tells you "The pain subsides, and you open your eyes to horror beyond imagining.". After those lines is when the characters usually give their reactions.

Aside from the Wellyn thing, which can cause Kido to permanently vanish, I didn't find anything major - just minor issues. Nice work!

- Imrahil

Hey - about 3/4 done with my Kido run, but I figured I'd report a couple things I found...

- I encountered the Wellyn problem above, but also, when you first talk to Wellyn, Kido asks him what happened to his bear (before Wellyn actually reached CHARNAME, who I had sent to talk to him), then the dialogue just stops - you have to talk to Wellyn again by clicking on him to get the rest of the story

- it's possible to "miss" the play if you rescue Haer Dalis before entering the basement of the Five Flagons - if this happens, Kido has his standard comments about a play you never see

- after talking to Xzar (where Kido interjects), Rylock didn't reappear outside the Harper Hold - I had to CLUA him in

Other than that, so far so good!  

- Imrahil