Is it inconceivable that they write a lesbian romances for any reason other than personal fantasy?

JCompton wrote Kelsey as a romance for women. By your reasonning... this is so he can achieve his fantasy of a gay romance with himself?

Kelsey was JCompton's creation and not a rewritten BioWare character. It doesn't matter why he wrote Kelsey because he wasn't a bisexual version of an official character designed to titilate the masses. What other reason is there for changing Viconia in such a manner other than to appease the desires of gamers drooling over the mere thought of Viconia having a fling with another woman? Enlighten me.

You defeat your own argument here because you make it abundantly clear that you can see no other possible role for bisexual people apart from fulfilling sexual fantasies.

I never wrote that. I wrote that making Viconia bisexual would be the equivalent of turning her into someone's fantasy -- someone's ideal version of her. If this had nothing to do with sex, or fulfilling a desire, then why make her bisexual?

It is also interesting, that you seem to know my sexual preferences and the way I feel about men in generally without knowing me in person.

And what I really don't share is the opinion, that there should be someone to say what kind of mods people should make or should not make.

So there should be no boundaries as to what modders can and cannot make? I see.

As for you, I've been here long enough to become familiar with the various types of people who call this community home. If I made an assumption about you it would probably be close to the truth.

I've always wondered why male players won't even consider romancing any of the available romanceable male characters in BG2 when female players are all too eager to romance female characters. Doesn't "role playing" work both ways? I don't suppose I have to wonder why there's such a huge demand for female-female romances anymore, however. What happened to all the straight women? I guess this phenomenom goes with the territory.

What's not believable about Viconia being bi?

Ooh, such delicious fire.

Nothing in the games suggests she is bisexual. Nothing. All other reasons for why she should be bisexual stem from people wanting her to be so.

If Viconia's sexuality is changed then she ceases to be Viconia.

Expanding Viconia's character could make her more rewarding, as you say, but making drastic changes to her character like making her bisexual would turn her into someone else in the process -- a walking, talking fantasy, you could say.

Just because she's aggressively sexual, doesn't mean she's bisexual either.

What is it about these alternate ideas that makes you feel so threatened?

You're reading into my posts too much. I don't feel threatened -- I just feel that modders are going too far with their ideas.

Forgive me if I have no desire to see modders turn Viconia into a shadow of her former self. This mod isn't a product of creativity so much as it is the product of desire. Plain and simple.

You keep trying to villify me as if I have no right to object to this premise. As if I'm the one who's wrong. Wake up.

I know I should not feed the troll...

Just because my opinions conflict with yours doesn't automatically mean I'm a troll. If attacking the lone voice of dissent makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means continue to do so.

If it IS sarcasm, then forgive me if I ask, that how do you know what is in women's minds?

Is this the part where you start harping on about how all women are bisexual?

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Not all women are sexually attracted to other women. That's a fact of life, believe it or not. Viconia shows no signs of finding other women sexually attractive, which leads us back to my original point: writing her to be bisexual simply wouldn't be believable.

Not that it's relevant, but I have dated women and I do have a girlfriend whom I understand very well. She's straight by the way. I couldn't change her sexuality even if I wanted to, and I don't. Contrary to popular opinion, and much to your chagrin, men can be very good at understanding women.

I mean... so what if they complete it? Why does this hurt you so much? Im sure there will be a lot of people who like it and will want to play it, why would you prevent them from doing so?

Because the mod is a bad idea. Because it's not true to the original character. You name it. The tragedy is people will actually think that this new and improved Viconia is a true representation of her original character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Viconia isn't a real person, and as much as you'd like to argue that it doesn't make any difference, it does. You're right, I can't change a real person. However, I CAN change Viconia... look, I just did. So, given the chance, why shouldn't I make the game more fun?

You can change her into someone more suited to your needs, but you'll never change her official character. Only the creators of the game have the right to do that. In real life you have to accept people for who they are; why not do the same with Viconia? Why not keep her true to her original character?

I'm all for believable mods, but this isn't one of them.

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

You *are* aware that Viconia isn't a real person, but a character in a game ... right?

You missed my point. You can't change a real person into someone you want them to be any more than you can change an original character in BG2. See my point? This mod is just changing Viconia into someone players want her to be (bisexual) rather than keeping her true to her original character, which speaks volumes about the fading integrity of the modding community.

If the community ends up agreeing with your opinion, the piece in question will wither away from neglect and disinterest. If the community finds the piece exciting and interesting then it can be argued that further pursuit of forcing your opinions on the community is not so much in the community's best interest as it is indulging your own sense of vanity. Anyone who tries to force any sort of morality on a resistant public isn't acting for the public good. They are trying to make everyone see how "right" they are.

Unfortunately, I'm in the minority here, so most of the community isn't going to agree with me. Almost everyone is already convinced that Viconia is the uninhibited concubine of the Drow.

Writing a mod shouldn't just reflect what the community at large wants, but what we can reasonably expect from the expansion of anyone's character. My opinion has nothing to do with concepts of right and wrong. This mod isn't within reason: it serves to satisfy a desire. Nothing more, nothing less. Making Viconia bisexual turns her into a living lie. Plain and simple.

Will that stop people from downloading the mod? No.

The character YOU know and love. Some people find the character of Viconia, Mellissan, or the Chinchilla rather lacking, so they choose to adjust/rewrite it, given that there's No Reason Why Not To™.

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

This mod defeats the purpose of accepting Viconia for who she is (i.e. a heterosexual Drow female who isn't as evil as she appears or is more evil than you can imagination if she isn't guided out of the darkness of her own inner turmoil).

I don't think it is right to say that a mod should not exist.  However I think it is perfectly fine to play a mod and write an honest review of it.  Write a scathing review of a mod if you think it sucked and give constructive criticism.  That would be more beneficial (although perhaps a bit rude) then condemning an uncompleted project outright.

I'd rather not see this mod come to fruition; it has no place in the modding community as far as I'm concerned.

A lot of people want Viconia to be bisexual because Baldur's Gate 2 somehow planted the seed of her being a no-hold bars porn star in their minds. In other words, everyone wants her to be bisexual merely because she has a pretty portrait. Now their dreams have come true. Now she *is* bisexual because some mod made her so.

Is that what this community has become? Does no one have any sense of integrity? Expanding Viconia's character is one thing; making her everyone's wet dream is another.

Is there a particular reason you've completely ignored my line of argument?

You mean this:

Why the fuck does it matter if you change the characterisation of an NPC?

For the simple reason that they are no longer the same person we came to know and love. Write a new character; don't rewrite an old one who conforms with your own personal vision of them.

Excuse me, but how is making her bisexual = making her 'sleep with anything' or make this mod a 'pornographic work'?

Forgive me for thinking that the purpose of this mod was to make some drastic changes to Viconia's character in order to make her receptive to a romantic fling with another female, or am I missing something here? Why else would you make such changes if not to explore that *non-existent* side of Viconia's character? What else would inspire the creation of this mod other than to see Viconia lust after another women? Romance? That's a difference that makes no difference. People will download this mod just to see Viconia buckle under the pressure of a constant bombardment of female affection. After all, even the straightest of women secretly ache with desire for other women. Whatever.

Would you say the same thing about Harry Potter fan fiction that depicts our hero Harry in a relationship with Draco Malfoy? Or maybe Ginny Weasely in a loving and sexual relationship with Hermione Granger? Or would you say the same about other kinds of slash pairings? Dax/Kira? Picard/Riker? Tom/Harry? Xena/Gabrielle? Sam Carter/Janet Fraiser?

I don't see how a female character engaging in a romance with Viconia would be believable. The official Viconia doesn't show any signs of being sexually attracted to women at all. If the real Viconia isn't interested in other women, then why change her into something she is not? Surely a sexually aggressive woman such a Viconia would've expressed an interest in women before now if she actually burned with desire for them?

...this isn't the first time you've argued against homosexuality/bisexuality in a mod?

I'm not against homosexual romance mods per se. I'm just against modders thinking they can alter the fabric of an NPC's identity without giving their original character any consideration. So far, mods have added a homosexuspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netal facet to the personalities of Imoen, and Solaufein (even Nalia has shared this fate). Who's next? Where do we draw the line? Modders have turned these characters into their own personal yet distorted vision of them instead of doing everything in their power to keep these characters as true to their original counterparts as possible. From what we know about Viconia, she isn't bisexual. That's the crux of my argument.

This mod is not porn. It's not even going near porn...

I'm curious: how many female gamers will download this mod for the friendship alone? A friendship with Viconia is a good idea. Good luck getting Viconia to open up though.

Yes, there's a much more subtle power struggle that goes on between female drow...

Yeah, they kill each other for positions of power; in contrast, they use men as tools to achieve their goals. You could say that Viconia would have more respect for women, but she can't help loving men. You're seeing homosexual leanings where there isn't any.

And even if this mod was just to expand a friendship with a female, would you object and say it makes that part of her story meaningless?

If Viconia was bisexual, why would she search for comfort from a gender she was taught to regard as inferior (men)? Her love/hate relationship with men and the fact that she cannot change who she is in that respect or ignore her desires is an integral part of her character. A friendship with another women would be more believable than a romance with one.

No, I call it subtext... And I already said that subtext is subjective. What I see in the lines I quoted, it's obvious that you don't see it.

Ooh, such delicious fire! What lovely indignation! Shower me with it please, as I love the venting of pent up aggression.

Umm... she still romances half-elf males

Yeah, males. Viconia calls Jaheira a "half breed mongrel" in one of their conversations, but I will concede this point.

And because you are of the opinion that unless we see it, it doesn't exist - that means according to you no one in the Forgotten Realms (of computer games) is bisexual or homosexual.

I never said that. I just think if you want to change an official character into a raving homosexual, you need some proof to justify that change. I'm sure people of every sexual persuasion inhabit the Forgotten Realms, but I'm equally sure that Viconia isn't among those who would call themselves bisexual.

It wouldn't matter if people tollerated it or not. I'm not doing this for everyone else out there, I'm doing it for me. What next? You want people to come out and send hate mail to the dirty lezzy mod writer?

Actually, I just think that this community is far too liberal for its own good. Even back when the community was thriving on the old BioWare boards, the vast majority of people openly condemned anyone who didn't appreciate Weimer ruining Solaufein's orginal character. He went too far. When I argued that Imoen couldn't possibly be bisexual on a certain message board I was banned almost immediately. So much for tolerance (though after reading the official BG2 novel I'm not so sure about Imoen anymore). Other than Miss Kitty and Riona, I receive the distinct impression that there aren't any straight women in this community, so you probably feel right at home. For what it's worth, good luck with your mod.

I apologize in advance for disturbing the peace here, but the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.

(And why did you wait until now to bring this up (again)? The mod has been in production for quite a while now.)

I never thought this mod would actually leave the concept stages given how unbelievable it is. Also, I'm not the most active member of this community anymore, so I don't visit this place as often as I once did. What does it matter anyway? It's not as if people aren't free to critique mods whenever they want.

Obsessing over this is not making you look very good...

Whatever gave you that impression? I'm not obsessed: I'm annoyed. There's a difference.

The source of my annoyance is not your freedom to write a pornographic work of fiction, but the mindset that inspires someone to rewrite a pre-existing character without giving a thought to their true identity. Why is it so impossible to keep a character in character? Turning Viconia into someone who will sleep with anything isn't believable in any way, shape or form. Write your own character instead of twisting an official one into someone who fits your vision of her. By turning Viconia into something she is not (bisexual) you're simply turning her into nothing more than your own personal fantasy. Women are more than mere sex objects you know?

You claim that Viconia views other women in a more positive light simply because women are the dominent gender in Drow society. The truth of the matter is she sees other women as potential rivals. The beauty of Viconia's character was that she was indoctrinated by Drow culture to practically despise men, and yet at the same time, she's a slave to her lust for/attraction to men. Was everything we learned about Viconia a lie? Your mod will make her inner struggle against ingrained Drow cultural norms and values meaningless.

There is at least one conversation she has with Jaheira that has at least a touch of lesbian subtext to it...

You call that proof? Quote a line from Viconia's dialogue where she actually hits on another woman in an explicit fashion, and then I'll believe you. For a person who was exposed to a culture that's so sexually active and promiscuous, a Drow woman like Viconia would have no qualms about making a direct pass at *anyone* she found attractive, if she was indeed bisexual. As it stands, the official Viconia will only romance male characters. Why is that, I wonder?!

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, Viconia despises elves/half elves more than she does men. Why on Earth would she hit on a half elven female in the light of everything we know about her? In actual fact, this rewrite is based on what we don't know about her.

There's no concrete proof she's straight either, by which I mean to say, Viconia doesn't say she's straight ever...

Dear God, not this nonsensical reasoning again. By your logic every character we encounter in the game could potentially be bisexual merely because they don't advertise their heterosexuality/homosexuality. This could apply to any number of fictional female characters you happen to find attractive. Is nothing sacred? The truth of the matter is you and the people who support the creation of this mod *want* Viconia to be bisexual. If that's the case, then you don't need to justify yourself to anyone. Just admit it.

Hell, Viconia could be attracted to animals too for all we know; after all, there's no proof in the games suggesting she isn't a secret admirer of everyday beasts of burden.

The one thing I cannot understand is people's tolerance towards this mod. Feel free to tear my arguments apart. If I write another lengthy post regarding this mod, dare I say it will be in the appropriate forum.

Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

Judging from your tone, you obviously don't appreciate a mere difference of opinion.

There have been some great examples of atrocious mods before now (like Weimer's Solaufein and Lord Mirrabo's Imoen), but this is by far the worst example of someone having the audacity to twist an official character into someone who meets their sexual needs. Tell me why I should find this acceptable?

What do I want? I don't want modders to pervert official characters into something they were never meant to be. That's what I want.

If people want to introduce gay/bisexual characters into the game, fine. But don't currupt, pollute, poison, or ruin official characters just because you want them to be something they are not.

Where's the proof showing in no uncertain terms that Viconia is bisexual? The game made it absolutely crystal clear that she prefers men. Have you never met good-looking, sexually aggressive straight women in real life? I have. Not being a prude doesn't automatically amount to being bisexual.

Sorry man, but this "debate" was over before it began. As for the purpose of this topic, I want to know how others feel about this particular mod.

Ok, so someone came up with the bright idea of expanding Viconia's character by making her romanceable by females despite the fact that the official Viconia shows no signs of liking women whatsoever.

After reading through a topic at the relevant forum regarding this non sequitur given the form of the drow female we all know and love as Viconia, I wasn't surprised to notice that it was locked as soon as no more than two people disagreed with the idea. The people who lept to the defense of the mod were (surprise, surprise) men and bisexual/gay women.

No, no one is forcing any of us to download this mod. However, that does not change the fact that this mod is folly incarnate, or in other words, a bad idea. The Baldur's Gate 2 modding community keeps stooping to new lows, and I find it very disheartening indeed.

Viconia is straight whether certain people like it or not. There is no other reason for rewriting her original character than for the sake of titilation. Everyone here will no doubt disagree with me, but I find the mere thought of it absolutely ridiculous.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Check her alignment. That should answer your question... or perhaps not.

Perhaps she'd stay if your character was a "hot chick".

Don't make excuses for your desire to create an "ideal" female character (it's funny how a bisexual woman is a [cave]man's ideal woman). A character should exist to provide more than mere titilation, don't you think?

"The physical shell" concerns me and every other straight person I know when it comes to seeking companionship. If she's bisexual fine, but don't sugar coat it as if she takes a more enlightened approach to love.

The latest statistic actually shows that majority of on-line role-payers are females...

Online RPGs are one thing, gaming in general is another. Although female gamers are on the rise, males easily constitute the majority of gamers. Female characters in games are primarily used to bait in a male audience. Do you really think that Final Fantasy X-2 would've sold so well if the three lead characters were precariously dressed men?

The main character in most Japanese RPGs is almost always male because the majority of gamers can and want to empathize with that character. Why not complain about Japanese RPGs in general too instead of just focusing on Torment? These games compensate with well-developed female side-kicks. Should I feel annoyed because the lead character in Beyond Good and Evil is a woman? It's still a great game with a great lead character regardless of that character's gender, and to an extent, because of it.

Besides, gamers don't want great RPGs like Torment. They want hack and slash-fest Diablo clones and movie-like RPGs in the vein of Final Fantasy where the story of the game is told to you. I don't know about you, but I like RPGs in which the player can interact with their surroundings and steer the course of the story. Most RPGs now are slowly but surely heading in this direction.

That's hardly fair Domi. Remember most gamers are male and therefore games are generally tailored to meet their needs. If you're going to complain about the male lead in Torment, then complain about the majority of Japanese RPGs that also have male leads.

Hatred.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Thief series.

Nothing can beat the Thief games when it comes to stealth gameplay IMO. I wonder how Thief III: Deadly Shadows will fare against the latest Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid games.

I also wonder what the mysterious Keepers are hiding from Garrett...

Whoa...  You mean you didn't maximize your intellectual stats (INT, WIS, CHA) during your first run through the game?  Surprising.

No. The first time I played through the game I played as an intelligent warrior who had an undying love for two-handed hammers (no wonder I love those paladins in Warcraft 3). Mastering a weapon early and boosting your constitition makes the early parts of the game a breeze. Of course, I once played through the game as an intelligent, wise mage as well who persuaded Trias to seek forgiveness.

I still haven't played through the game as a thief, but the thief class seems underpowered to me when compared to the other two classes (which is ironic considering I love thieves in Baldur's Gate 2).

The symbol of Torment tattooed onto the Nameless One is the symbol of a flag seen in the Blood War battle that rages during the ending cinematic.

I think that's TNO's journal. At the very least it's definitely a book and not a flag;
http://platter.jink....ges/finale2.jpg

Thanks for pointing that out. Oddly enough, I never noticed that before.

If you defeat the robot prostitute (I believe her name was Dolora) at chess your mind races back to a memory of the Blood War in which your first incarnation claims yet another victory on the field of battle.

There was no indication which incarnation that memory was from.

But too coincidental to be ignored nonetheless. Why was he drawn back into the Blood War conflict at the end if he wasn't tied to it somehow? I'm not ruling out anything.

What about replay value? PST is the game I've replayed more than any other.

It seems that every time I play through Torment I discover something new. In my last game I learnt that the Nameless One was the person responsible for turning the Lower Ward of Sigil into what it is (why can't the Nameless One live a single life without having an impact on the fate of the people around him?). I still haven't played through the game as a thief though.

I think I've played through Baldur's Gate 2 more times than all my other games put together. However, I'd love to play another game like Torment, or another RPG set in the same universe.

Neverwinter Nights was ok but I've yet to play another game like Planescape: Torment. I must admit, however, Fallout 2 and the Baldur's Gate games consumed more of my time.

If only Interplay never stopped developing and publishing games of their quality. Ah well, that's life I suppose. There's a special place in hell waiting for the likes of Titus and EA.

If the Nameless One isn't intelligent and wise enough, he won't realise who the good incarnation actually is. I didn't realise it on my first trip through the game. The good incarnation never strikes you as being your first incarnation by virtue of his kind nature. I suppose that's the whole point.