Heya,

Warning! This message contains spoilers for the novels based on the BG saga, read at your own peril, and make sure you have a bucket handy!

This is a really really interesting question that has no right answer.

It's pointless to yell at each other about it to be honest. There just isn't a right answer. Civil discussion is the way to go on this, and at least acknowledge that there isn't a "ONE TRUE ANSWER" to the question.

Everyone forgets that Abeir-Toril simply isn't Earth, and Earth's social mores do not apply in any way shape or form.

Having said that, the BG saga was written by a team of developers who are mostly male and only had the canon source material to work with. Attitudes and such towards homosexuality are not mentioned in any of the books I have on the Realms (and I'm up to date with 3rd Edition Realms sources, having just bought Underdark the other week)... However, there is at least one mention of a homosexual couple (Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklyn, the former who rules the city of Elversult, the latter who pretty much runs the Watch of Elversult) in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. When directly confronted about the use of the word consort Sean Reynolds (one of the four authors of the book) was evasive, and like Peter Thomas of Bioware on Juhani in KotOR, refused to address it directly. He basically said "read it as you will"... There is a very clear difference between consort and cohort, and a very clear definition of the word consort - and yet he wouldn't say yes or no.

The novels of the BG saga are exceptions to the usual from TSR/WotC and Hasbro... and I suspect the only reason it got past people was because it was a time of transition for TSR, moving first to WotC then WotC being bought by Hasbro... Phil Athans, who wrote the first two novels is both an author and editor for WotC... The last novel is by Drew Karpyshyn, who is an employee of Bioware. The first book in the series has the TSR Silver Anniversary logo on it, the last has WotC's logo.

Anyway, HERE is what Ed Greenwood says about the world he invented. You'll have to scroll down the message a little - it's in the section that addresses me directly. I'll quote it below incase you're too lazy to look. (Yes I did notice it had been quoted in this thread before, but I suspect people ignored it. )

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes,
the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male,
inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter
of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted
from the printed version because of TSR's standards
(which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on
my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to
everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely
taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely
reporting what the natives are, and do..."

In conclusion... The canon Imoen is both a lesbian and a very very dead young woman, slain by the drowish assassin Sedai while in Belthazar's care - her immortal soul carelessly quashed and totally obspellholdstudios.netlitterated beyond the help of any deity. *grinds teeth* Jaheira too is very very dead and beyond the help of any deity *grinds teeth again*, and Minsc is just a madman with a rat. Why is this canon? Because Realms novels are canon. Specifically because it changed nothing about the Realms, there isn't any reason to believe the novels aren't canon... (Please note, the canonality of the novels is something I vehemently disagree with!)

Heya,

Um, what is sweeping about "dependent on medium and context", "tend to pick," and "has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces"?  It's been true so far in the three published studies on internet discussion spaces I've worked on to date.  These findings have been confirmed independently for both asynchronous bulletin boards and chat, to the point where there are computer programs that can detect gender within a genre with an 80% accuracy rate:  ( http://www.bookblog....nder/genie.html ).  You talk about science, well, the fact that the majority of people online openly reveal their geneder is about as good as an established fact as you can get in the world of human behavior. 

Submitted: Five random pieces of fiction written by me.

Algorithim predicted Author is...

Male four times.

Female once.

Actual author gender: Female.

Err... and you say this is supposed to be 80% accurate? It was wrong 80% of the time. I know only five pieces isn't terribly much, but according to that I'm male!! Well maybe it's because I identify as lesbian.

Heya,

It's interesting to note that in the film Troy, Archilles, who in the book Illiad has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend.  It is hardly surprising that a game which probably relies heavily on American sales has failed to mention homosexuality in a big way when this would of course lead to the bible belt (covering of 40% of America last I recall) steering a wide course around the product.

Don't get your worlds confused.  The fact that the largest buyer of this type of product also happens to have a fairly large, and in some cases verging on zealot, christian community, would have quite some influence on anything produced in the gaming arena.  If it's enough to scare a major hollywood film company, then what chance does a small developer stand?

I also understand they managed to keep actual deific participation to a bare minimum. (Haven't seen Troy yet, but I'm planning to go see it this week sometime.)

But yes, marketing is definitely something that big businesses have to keep in mind when publishing something. Which is why we don't get blatant mentioned of homosexuality in computer games, role playing source materials, and (generally) novels associated with them.

Hasbro is a big company, and they have specific policies against presenting homosexuality or anything that might be regarded as adult in nature... Though there are exceptions (ie: The Book of Vile Darkness and The Book of Exalted Deeds both of which deal with adult concepts, but both have labels on them clearly warning of such content - besides which book publication is slightly different to game publication since there is no rating system for books)...

The BG saga however, is a little bit harder to pin down. The licensing company was basically in a state of flux during the development. (TSR => WotC => Hasbro)... Policies weren't as pinned down as they are now (no festhalls in Hordes of the Underdark for example. There was one but it was taken out at Hasbro's insistence - now I KNOW there are festhalls in Waterdeep!)...

However, having said that... In the world of fan fiction and game mods, anything goes. There is no pressure from Christian (and other) zealots not to put stuff in them that might not be acceptable to the so-called "moral majority".

[kidding]
My take on Imoen is that she is not Pink.  I'm not 100% sure, but the reasons I think so are...

- She never outright says she's Pink.  Most people who don't claim to be Pink are not, in fact, Pink.
- Pink is a singer & Imoen never sings.
- Sure, she shares some characteristics with Pink, but she also shares many characteristics with Madonna, & we know she's not Madonna, because Irenicus says so.
- You should know that if you play a Gnome Wizard Slayer, wielding the Stiletto of Demarchess, & approach Ribald in Chapter 6, Imoen says "Well, I'm really a blonde... this... this isn't natural..."
- Canon FR materials never even mention Pink, because Hasbro has a Family Friendly policy which forbids them from mentioning anything related to "getting the party started" - oddly enough, they are all for Family Portraits...
- In the books, she is a rock star, I'll admit, but then again they also say that Jaheira is a "ho"
[/kidding]

[tongueincheek]
Here are some more points...

- Actually, in the books they say she's a little bit of nothing, though Drew Karpyshyn gives her back a few of her thief abilties.
- Also, she's described as being just under five feet tall with chestnut hair.
- In Lord Mirrabbo's mod, Imoen both sings and plays a guitar.

Weather this lends evidence to either side of the the argument pertaining to Imoen's pinkness (and gods I hope she's not pink, I hate that colour!), I have no clue.
[/tongueincheek]

Heya,

Well she was'nt answering prayers or granting spells and divinations were inconclusive, so the faithful of Waukeen assumed she was dead.

Actually, the strongest and most faithful of her priests never lost faith (which is pretty much where the module For Duty and Deity started - one of Waukeen's faithful had a vision of her trapped by Graz'zt)... and Lliira went to great lengths to make sure Waukeen's clergy knew that she was only holding onto this portfolio in trust for Waukeen (in other words, that she felt that Waukeen would eventually return).

Someone mentioned above that their has been a sort of 'schism' between Llira and Waukeen (who were best friends before ToT), Any1 care to elaborate on this, cos the last time i checked (2ed F&A), Llira actually hoped that Waukeen would return.

Well the strange thing is, when I went and looked it up, Faiths and Pantheons (the 3rd Edition God Book) practically contradicts itself... Here are the relevant bits:

Waukeen

History/Relationships: At the Time of Troubles Waukeen was still a relatively young deity with few enemies other than Mask, whose portfolio naturally opposed hers. As such, it was quite unexpected that Waukeen was never seen during the Time of Troubles and never reclaimed her mantle following its conclusion. The truth behind her disappearance is that she conspired with Lliira to leave her divine mantle behind and escaped to the Astral Plane with the aid of a deity from another world. Once on the Astral Plane, she intended to make her way back to her realm via the Abyss through the purchased aid of the demon lord Graz'zt. However, Graz'zt betrayed her, making her his prisoner, and it was not until she was rescued by daring adventurers in 1371DR that she regained her divinity. Waukeen has since revitalized and reassured her worshipers of her existance and her restored divine power. She is very closely with Lliira (who held her portfolio in trust while she was imprisoned), Gond (whose inventions she appreciates), and Shaundakul (whose portfolio complements hers). Aside from Mask, her only true enemy is Graz'zt, against whom she has sworn her eventual revenge.

Lliira

History/Relationships: Lliira's greatest friend in the Faerun pantheon is Milil who shares her flare for perfomance. Once a great friend of the commerce goddess Waukeen, Lliira even went as far as to absorb many of the disaffected clerics of the Merchant's Friend when that goddess vanished during the Time of Troubles. Upon her return, however, Waukeen jealously coverted those clerics who had converted to Lliiranism, and the resulting ill will has formed a slight rift between the former companions. The murder of Selgaunt's High Revelmistress Chalanna Asjros (whom Lliira had taken as a lover while in mortal form during the Time of Troubles) by forces of Loviatar has deeply affected the Joybringer. A militant order known as the scarlet mummers now tours Faerun with her support, dispatching agents of the Maiden of Pain by means of an elaborate and deadly dance utilizing the mummers' blade boots.

Tyr came from another Prime Material world, but I don't think we've ever been told it's name.

Tyr is the same god as Tyr from the Norse pantheon. So he's yet another Earth Based Interloper.

However, it might be worth it to note that the Norse Tyr was the god of Law. The Norse god of Justice was Forseti...

Waukeen wasn't destroyed during the Time of Troubles, she gave her portfolio and much of her divine essence to her friend Llira and thus managed to escape to the planes.  There she tried to strike a deal with Graz'zt, but trusting a creature of immense evil isn't exactly a good idea (obviously Waukeen lost most of her sanity as well as her powers ).  He quickly betrayed and imprisoned her.

Waukeen has since been rescued from Graz'zt (by a band of adventurers, no less... (There was a module with that very goal - "For Duty and Deity")), and has returned to the Realms and recovered her portfolio from Lliira - jealousy has now caused a rift between the two former friends (many Waukeenar converted to Lliiraism during that time, but did not convert back).

Heya,

The "For Duty and Deity" adventure is available for download at the WotC site:
http://wizards.com/d...d/dnd/downloads

Oh cool, I didn't realise they had made it a free download. For Duty and Deity was one of my favorite modules... I have no idea why I ever gave it away. ><

Heya,

Tyr came from another Prime Material world, but I don't think we've ever been told it's name.

Waukeen wasn't destroyed during the Time of Troubles, she gave her portfolio and much of her divine essence to her friend Llira and thus managed to escape to the planes.  There she tried to strike a deal with Graz'zt, but trusting a creature of immense evil isn't exactly a good idea (obviously Waukeen lost most of her sanity as well as her powers ).  He quickly betrayed and imprisoned her.

But what was known about her fate to their followers from Toril ? In TOB, some characters refer to Waukeen as to a dead goddess. It's another inconsistency or the mortals thought she was dead ?

At the time of BG2 (either 1368DR or 1369DR IIRC), Waukeen is still languishing in Graz'zt's prison, and Lliira is currently granting spells to her faithful. Waukeen is not actually dead, she's just... umm... not a god at the time for all intents and purposes*. She's rescued in 1371DR.

The current (pen and paper) game year is 1372DR.

* What use is she for Gratz'zt then, I hear you ask? Well she knows a lot about lost wealth and where it could be found, despite not having her godhood... Wealth that could be power if in the right hands. (I think that's the reason given in For Duty and Deity, but it's been a while since I've owned that module.)

Heya,

Is it possible for a mortal to ascend if he gets enough people to worship him?

Anyone who wishes to ascend to godhood has to get Ao's approval*.  (It helps to have a divine sponsor - such as Finder Wyvernspur who had Tymora as a patron, and he defeated Moander to become a demi-god.)

* Which means that any potential new deity needs to either fit into Ao's idea of "balance" or serve Ao's idea of "balance". Also, the new deity can't overlap portfolios with another demigod (though the new deity can overlap with greater deities, but they'd find themselves serving them. )

I have played one RPG system that included such "priests of themselves" (They "attracted lightning" a lot but could do incridible things at high levels) but I don't know if the trick works in Fearun as well.

I'm pretty sure that trick won't work in Faerun. The PC would need to be a god to grant themselves powers.

Heya,

obviously i'm stupid, and off topic, but how did the gods die when they were forced to walk the earth. It doesn't make any sense to me.

During the Time of Troubles...

Mystra was killed by Helm when She tried to re-ascend to Her dwelling upon discovering who it was who had stolen the Tablets of Fate - unfortunately for Her, this was not enough to appease Ao's wrath, and Helm would not let Her by. This caused magic to begin to malfunction wildly.

Bane and Torm got into a big fight in Tantras, destroying parts of that city in the process. The result was that Torm prevailed over Bane, but died from His efforts.

Bhaal was destroyed by Cyric (who was a mortal at the time), who killed Him near the Boreskyr Bridge. Cyric later went on to murder Leria once he'd ascended.

Myrkul was destroyed by Midnight over Waterdeeps's harbour - some small amount of His essence remains behind in the form of a crown called the Crown of Horns.

Torm's life was restored to Him at the end of the Time of Troubles by Ao, because Torm had been fulfilling His Duty by defending Tantras from Bane. Cyric and Midnight (who became the new Mystra) were "ascended to godhood" by Ao.

If a god was slain during the Time of Troubles, they were irrevokably killed. Only Ao could restore them to life. Several gods had plans to avoid that kind of fate, but not all of them succeeded. (Bane had previous planted the seed for His return in the form of His son Iyachtu Xvim - whom He destoryed in His return... According to the BG saga, Bhaal had gone about "sowing His wild oats" prior to the ToT in order to achieve something similar to Bane...)

I would imagine any deity that existed on many worlds would have their Toril aspect destroyed totally - unless Ao, for some reason, decided to let them return to Toril.

Heya,

2 questions:
1)  In the time of troubles, only part of a diety worshiped on multiple worlds would have been brought down to the walk the earth, right?  If they died, would they rejoin the rest of themselves, or would the god permanetly loose that part of their power.

This is one of those paradoxical situations... What probably happened is that Lolth's avatar was sent to Toril, and the rest of her "divinity" was barred from influencing Toril by Ao.

2)  Is their ranking (whether their a lesser, intemediate or greater power) based on their total power on all the worlds their worshiped or just the given world?

The power of a deity on Toril is determined by just their worshipers on Toril. Though Lolth on Toril and Lolth on Oerth are the same deity, there are actually differences between them and what power they possess - for instance, on Toril, Lolth has six domains, while on Oerth she only has four... But Lolth on Oerth will have extra salient divine abilities, because the Toril Lolth has had to use three of hers on extra domains, while Oerth Lolth only had to use one. (If that makes sense at all. )

Heya,

BTW in addition to what Zandilar said, the sword Cyric used to kill Bhaal and Leira turned out to be an avatar of Mask, though Cyric didn't find that out until over a decade later.  So in fact, one god (i.e. Mask) was hiding during the ToT .

Yes, that's right. I forgot all about Godsbane - who also had the spirit of Kelemvor captive, and hid him from Cyric.

Sometimes, though, I have to feel sorry for Mask. He gets such a rough deal.

Heya,

Eilistraee's home is Svartalfheim in Ysgard; Ghaundaur's is the Cauldron of Slime in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze; Kiaransalee's is Thanatos in the Abyss; Lolth's and Selvetarm's is the Demonweb Pits, 666th layer of the Abyss; Vhaeraun's is Ellaniath in Carceri.

Uh... Nope.

I do have to contradict you here... they retroactively changed the Cosmology of Faerun, and it basically "has always been that way"...

Eilistraee now dwells (mostly) in Arvandor with the Seldarine
The rest of the Drow pantheon dwell in the Demonweb Pits, and even Eilistraee has a realm there, though she rarely ever visits it.

The Realms were never meant to fit into Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology....

Here is a very interesting thread on Sean K Reynold's forums talking about the Cosmology of the Realms, and why it was part of the Great Wheel in the first place, and why it should never have been...
Cosmology Question

(Sean Reynolds is responsible for the new cosmology, and since his name is actually on the cover of FRCS along with Ed Greenwood, Skip Williams, and Rob Heinsoo, I think he'd know what he was talking about. )

(Mind you, the new cosmology was not published at the time the Baldur's Gate games were made!)

Heya,

What exactly changed, why and how does Sean explain it?

What books were the changes detailed in?

This is the key quote out of that thread...

Except it wasn't TSR "trying to bring everyone together." It was Lorraine Williams (owner of TSR, a non-gamer who looked down on gamers, who was proud that she never gamed, and planned on giving TSR to her daughter as a gift when she turned 18 so she's have a "little business" to run") who said that all TSR products had to use the same universe so that people would all buy the same universe-books. She's also the person who said "If it's in core D&D, it's in FR," which is why every single Monster Manual monster _had_ to have a place in FR, and why every world-subset expansion (OA, Maztica, Al Qadim, etc.) was crammed into FR instead of letting it be independent. Lorraine, who ran TSR into the ground because she didn't know what she was doing. Lorraine who decided that TSR's audience was children age 8-10 and any evidence to the contrary was just wrong. She wanted FR to use the Great Wheel because the Great Wheel was "official." Do you really want to be taking her advice for your game or for official FR product?

We went a different way because we were no longer forced to follow strict rules that made no sense or were even bad for the setting.

You can find information on the new Cosmology in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg 256) and the Players Guide to Faerun (pg 139). (They are both 3rd Edition books.) Briefly, it's more of a treelike structure, and has deity groupings that make more sense. (For example, Dweomerheart is the home of all the deities of magic, Mystra (NG), Azuth (LN), Velsharoon (NE), and Savras (TN).)

Heya,

Feanor said AD&D, and his post is in reference to BG2, so clearly he's talking about 2nd Edition, not 3rd Edtion (which of course is D&D, not AD&D).  In 2nd Edition, the planes I mentioned are the ones the deities reside on.

Retroactive change means that technically the change effects 2nd Ed too. It also doesn't preclude the idea that some races came from other primes (because, they did, in fact, do so.) And nowhere is it ever stated that you can't travel between different cosmologies either - portals might be one way to do it, being as they're so common... (Elves, for example, came through a portal.)

But I'm not going to argue with you about it, because it's clear we're never going to agree. I am just pointing out that the Cosmology has changed in 3rd Ed and it's a retroactive change.

Heya,

I have no problem the sexuality of charichters.
the ethics of a paladin being gay could make for an intresting story

Definitely.

The ethics of being a straight paladin would be just as interesting, since there is no god in the Realms who has a problem with sexual orientation. Sorry. That is just the way it is. Alignment doesn't influence sexual orientation either. In short, a paladin being homosexual is as much a non-issue as a paladin being heterosexual. Having a loving relationship with someone of the same gender is not an issue in the Realms. (I wonder how many ways I have to say it before people start to believe me?)

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Sharess is also a CG deity of hedonism, love etc etc. Perhaps it might be a good idea to look into her description as well and see if you can make something out of it for the paladin story?

Sune is the only Chaotic deity who has paladins.

Sharess is the goddess of hedonism, sensual fulfilment, festhalls, and cats... She does not have paladins.

Heya,

I never said 'unnatural', or 'wrong', as a matter of act, I said it is highly likely that sexual orientation is coded in the genes (therefore, it is natural). The fact that a thing happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And yes, I still believe paladins should not be allowed to sleep with a man or a woman just for the f***.

The question is not whether a simple human should do it, rather on whether a paladin should do it. And I think, that even LadyLeFay (the author of the mod) sees something unfitting in a paladin not having straight affairs, since Keldorn wants to 'turn Dante straight'.

Well, the author has also asked that we let this go, but I just want to say that I think you're looking at this issue through Real World ™ eyes, and what applies on Earth may not apply on Abeir-Toril.

We have some really screwed up social mores regarding sex and sexuality here on Earth... Let me give you an example of a paladin who may not be chaste or celibate.

A paladin of Sune. Sune is a CG goddess who has paladins. She's pretty much the exception to the rule that Paladins must follow a god who is within one step of LG (which is to say, LG, LN, and NG).

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Actually, I was thinking Dante might be well suited to Her - since at least some of his issues come from his sexuality, and who he comes to love. Sune definitely doesn't condem homosexuality, since She is the goddess of all love. Also, a Paladin of Sune might find him/herself in some interesting conflicts with both Keldorn (who is a paladin of Torm) and Anomen (who is a cleric/fighter (not paladin) of Helm (?)) - Torm is LG and Helm is LN. While a paladin of Sune would still be LG, Her dogma is not lawful by any stretch.

Does Dante have a deity yet?

Heya,

About elelmental lovers -- there are genazi you know... they have to come from somewhere.

Genasi are actually decended from Genie - the Dao, Marid, Efreeti, and Djinni. They're elementally based creatures that live in the elemental planes - they are definitely intelligent (more so than most humanoid races), and quite powerful (which is why Genasi get an ECL in 3rd Ed). Genasi are more common around Calimport, since that region was ruled by Djinni and Efreeti ages ago.

Genie are definitely humanoid creatures.

Heya,

You might be interested to check this message out about attitudes towards non-standard sexualities in the Realms: Ed's Comments

The author of the message is Ed Greenwood (via Jeff Thetford, one of the list mods), the creator of the Forgotten Realms, and the relevant section is where he's addressing me (Alexandra/Zandilar)... For brevity, here's the bit:

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes, the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male, inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted from the printed version because of TSR's standards (which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely reporting what the natives are, and do..."

As you can see by that, there would be no issue with a paladin being gay. No deity specifically denounces/demonizes homosexuality in the Realms. We are not dealing with Real World Religions here. Don't make the mistake of confusing Abeir-Toril with Earth.

I can also point you in the direction of references to homosexual and polyamorus liasions in FR print, though these are usually kind of hidden and only refered to in passing or implied - if you're interested. (They're mostly 3rd Ed references, though, since somehow things seem to have been relaxed, despite Hasbro being stricter with their "family friendly" policy! (In computer games, the opposite has happened, though, with the Festhall in Waterdeep being eliminated totally from NWN:HotU!))

Heya,

Well, here's a small sample flirt-bit.

(You felt as though you were being watched--you instinctly turned to where you thought it was coming from, only to peer into Dante's azure eyes)
Dante: oh... hello... <Charname> (he ducked his head as he turned away suddenly -- if you didn't know better, you would swear that he was blushing!)

Erm.. No offence, but you should be using present tense not past tense... Since you are describing what the player sees as they see it, not describing what they saw after they saw it... (ie: You need to write like a DM. )

If that makes sense at all.

Heya,

Let's see:

asides from being gay:

- He's the son of a farmer.

- dead loyal to his mentor (Who is a second father)

- sees undead as poor souls trapped in rotting bodies -- his duty to relieve their suffering by killing them.

He'd know that lesser undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are just animated corpses - their souls having fled when they initially died. (He'd have learnt that when he gained his paladin training.)

- a love of unicorns.

- VERY naive about intimacy.

- used to be bullied by his much stronger twin sister because he's too nice. (she's a monk now) But the twins still love each other.

- dislike Necromancers and arrogant nobles.

- is most likely to suggest the less violent path of many quests.

Is there a particular reason why he chose/was chosen by Lathander to be a Paladin? So far he actually sounds more like a paladin of Ilmater (what with relieving the suffering of undead, and choosing the less violent path, even allowing himself to be bullied fits the Ilmatari profile).

He actually sounds like a fairly standard paladin (actually, on second thoughts, he sounds more like a cleric). Is there something that sets him apart? It could be a quirk or flaw of his personality, it could be an unusual event or experience from his past... Like... You could say he had an encounter with a unicorn at dawn and took it to be a sign that Lathander (especially if Dante was a worshiper of Lathander prior to him taking up the mantle of paladin - and given that pretty much all Realmsians (with few exceptions) have a patron deity, I'd say that's the odds are good that he worshiped the Morninglord) was calling him to service - for instance... (Like he saw him/her from a distance, or even that the unicorn came right up and touched Dante's forehead with his/her horn.)

Hope this makes sense...

Heya,

Have you any idea of the back-aches those breasts would cause that poor Half-Orcish woman?

Sheesh.

Heya,

2nd Edition comments:

2nd Edition didn't allow for ....

Actually, 2nd edition allowed for almost anything within the bounds of roleplaying. It should always be remembered that higher-level clerical spells are a boon from a deity and could fail if the cleric failed to roleplay the required request.

We're talking about a CRPG here, and RP is a very minor part of a CRPG. A computer can't make judgement calls about RPing. And it would be odd to have a raise dead not work for an NPC when it never fails for an NPC in the PC's party (that hasn't been totally destroyed).

I think the goal of a good writer/scripter for CPRGs is to provide for sensible roleplaying.  Otherwise you might as well just play doom.

No, the job of the writer/scripter is to provide an entertaining experience within the confines of an interactive story. The way dialogue works in BG2 allows for a small amount of choice, but not the freedom of true Role Playing. If I want to do something not covered by dialogue/game scripts, I can't. I'm stuck with the options provided.

I must say there have been many many times when given options in dialogue (both in the main game and within mods) that I've gone, "but this character wouldn't say any of those things, where's the xyz option?"

Anyway, that's way off topic for this thread.

ObOT: In 2nd Ed, Raise Dead strips a point of Con from the person being raised... But I don't think it does that in BG2...

Heya,

Almost certainly true.  The problem is that so many dramatic plots depend on the lost lover, the fallen friend, the loved one beyond reach, etc.

It's very tough to write a tale of loss when the Death of X can be fixed at any time by a visit to the local priest. At most, you can get some mild pathos out of a poor family trying to save up to bring back a loved one, but then that says something dark about the motivations of "Good" priests.

For that matter, the certainty of an afterlife makes many sorts of story less viable.

For this dialog, I need a tragedy. If it's trite, I'll have to live with that. 

See, the problem is, most things can be fixed in the FR by finding a mage or cleric and having them cast X spell for Y money. Money is the major issue; almost everyone in the FR has never even had a quarter of the money to raise someone at once. Perhaps, you can make a tragety about a rich family, and about how money can't buy everything...

Unlike their 2nd Ed counterparts (which only require the cleric's holy symbol and some holy water), the 3rd Ed "raise dead" spell line all require a costly component. (The BG2 versions of the 2nd Ed spells require no components at all!)

Raise Dead (the 5th level spell) requires 500gp worth of diamonds.
Resurrection (the 7th level spell) requires 10,000gp worth of diamonds.
True Resurrection (the 9th level spell) requires 25,000gp worth of diamonds.

Most good churches would probably charge that as a minimum, but also they generally charge for the time and effort as well ( I don't agree with that idea if the person concerned can produce the actual component required - but donations are always well appreciated) - in the case of Raise Dead it would be 450gp on top of the 500gp of diamonds.

Now, take into concideration the number of 9th level clerics (the minimum level required to cast Raise Dead) in any given city - and you start to see that getting someone resurrected is not so easy. However, having said that, Athkatla is well and truely big enough to have several 9th level clerics... And if this story/plot involves the PC, they're almost certainly going to have a high enough level cleric in the party to perform the resurrection anyway (Jaheira advances VERY quickly as a Druid and generally has Harper's Call very shortly after the game commences, for example).

Sometimes there are reasons why writers ignore game rules, because generally speaking game rules don't make a good plot. You could just say it doesn't work and give no justification at all - after all Aerie doesn't get her wings back by casting a Regeneration spell (and restoring lost limbs is exactly the purpose of that spell). That's definitely not the best way to handle it, though.