Custom NPC - talks
#1
Posted 27 August 2005 - 11:24 AM
So... if I write an NPC mod, and write banters not only for original, Bioware NPC's, but for others, like Kelsey and Solafein and Tashia and Fade and Bruce and Alassa, will it be generally acceptable? Or will I be banned, excluded and condemned for all eternity?
Naturally, in the credits it will be pointed out that the creator of NPC X is Mister Y or Miss Z, and also, if the creator of the NPC would want his\her NPC lines changed in the banters, it will be done as per his\her request.
Yes, I am aware of Crossmod banter pack, but what I have in mind is different, as I want to write and pack the talks into the mod myself.
So, what do you think?
IWD NPC, Xan, The Sellswords, Back to Brynnlaw, Assassinations, Dungeon Crawl, Reunion, Branwen, Coran, Tiax, Xan BG1 Friendship
BG1 NPC, Romantic Encounters
#2
Posted 27 August 2005 - 12:09 PM
So... if I write an NPC mod, and write banters not only for original, Bioware NPC's, but for others, like Kelsey and Solafein and Tashia and Fade and Bruce and Alassa, will it be generally acceptable? Or will I be banned, excluded and condemned for all eternity?
Well, you might be mocked for writing banters for Bruce and/or Alassa.
Naturally, in the credits it will be pointed out that the creator of NPC X is Mister Y or Miss Z, and also, if the creator of the NPC would want his\her NPC lines changed in the banters, it will be done as per his\her request.
Personally, I think that once the content has been released, it's "part of the game" and therefore fair game to do with as you see fit. It would be a silly double standard to say that Bioware NPCs are available but not mod NPCs. That said, given that the authors of most NPCs _are_ available to collaborate with you (unlike Bioware), it's probably best to seek their cooperation first, and if rejected, decide then if you want to proceed on your own.
Pocket Plane mods and modlist etc.
#3
Posted 27 August 2005 - 01:46 PM
Khadion NPC mod - Team leader, head designer
Hubelpot NPC mod - Team leader, coder
NPC Damage - Coder
PC Soundsets - Coder, voice actor
Brythe NPC mod - Designer
DragonLance TC - Glory of Istar - Designer
The NPC Interaction Expansion Project - Writer for Cernd, Sarevok
The Jerry Zinger Show - Producer
Iron Modder 5 - Winner
#4
Posted 27 August 2005 - 02:05 PM
#5
Posted 27 August 2005 - 05:34 PM
I would strongly advise to talk with the modders in question, if only to make sure that what you've written is "alright". Writers can be very touchy about their work and be easily offended if someone greatly mischaracterises and writes horrible banters for a character they've spent lots of time building and carefully writing - without even bothering to give give a heads-up - when it can be avoided by checking with them. Not because you have to, but because it's a decent thing to do.
But, again, the double standard. Do you submit your mods to Bioware for approval, and even if you did, would you actually make changes based on what they said?
Pocket Plane mods and modlist etc.
#6
Posted 27 August 2005 - 07:30 PM
The other difference is that no one at Bioware flames you in forums because you didn't make their "pet" NPC exactly the way they wanted.
Other than those reasons, as far as I am concerned, once you put it in the community it is fair game. Anyone that doesn't think so better not have any copyrighted music or graphics in their mod. Hypocrites are not needed here.
Tired of Bhaal? Try some classics mods instead:
Classic Adventures
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#7
Posted 27 August 2005 - 10:55 PM
The other difference is that no one at Bioware flames you in forums because you didn't make their "pet" NPC exactly the way they wanted.
That's probably the main reason. Ethics be ethics, decency be decency, but nobody would want to be flamed far and wide.
IWD NPC, Xan, The Sellswords, Back to Brynnlaw, Assassinations, Dungeon Crawl, Reunion, Branwen, Coran, Tiax, Xan BG1 Friendship
BG1 NPC, Romantic Encounters
#8
Posted 28 August 2005 - 05:51 AM
But, again, the double standard. Do you submit your mods to Bioware for approval, and even if you did, would you actually make changes based on what they said?
i hate to disagree with JC, but this is a false comparison. Bioware have a proprietary product which they allow users to modify and adapt as they wish (not all IP owners are so generous, unfortunately) and as such, permission is already granted for us to change/ adapt/ alter the published material.
Modding, on the other hand, is a collaborative work practice (even when it is practiced by individuals working alone) - and, like any collaboration, all partners to that collaboration have to be happy with the process and the end product for there to be an end product. this is fairly trivial problem when working on a mod with other ppl (altho it might not feel trivial at the time) - disputes about the direction of the mod happen as part of the creative process, ppl can leave modding projects, start up alternative or competing versions, etc. however, it's a non-trivial problem when adapting/ adding to existing modded content - because the original mod authors, or their heirs, are necessarily part of that collaborative process, and likewise any collaboration necessarily takes place on the terms set by the original mod authors.
far-sighted, generous or community-minded mod authors may well submit their content to the public domain (can i submit keto/kelsey slash to the the cross-mod banter pack?), but (much as i also hate to disagree with SirBB), unless a mod author has explicitly submitted their mod to the public domain (eg, CBisson) or, more problematically, are unreacheable/ no longer part of the modding community (we need a doctrine of eminent modding domain ), then they do have to be included in any adaption of their work and do have to be willing collaborators (even tho that has the effect of giving them the right of veto over any adaption of their work).
Edited by seanas, 28 August 2005 - 05:55 AM.
"A simple test of the relative merits of science and religion is to compare lighting your house at night by prayer or electricity" - A. C. Grayling
"EFF files have saves, too." - CamDawg
|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||
#9
Posted 28 August 2005 - 09:03 AM
i hate to disagree with JC, but this is a false comparison. Bioware have a proprietary product which they allow users to modify and adapt as they wish (not all IP owners are so generous, unfortunately) and as such, permission is already granted for us to change/ adapt/ alter the published material.
There's never been any explicit permission granted. We can infer from years of neglect and the fact that Gaider didn't get fired for Ascension that it is not expressly forbidden, but that's a far cry from permission-to-adapt.
far-sighted, generous or community-minded mod authors may well submit their content to the public domain (can i submit keto/kelsey slash to the the cross-mod banter pack?)
I think Grim requires that submissions be mutual for that particular mod.
then they do have to be included in any adaption of their work and do have to be willing collaborators (even tho that has the effect of giving them the right of veto over any adaption of their work).
It still smacks of a double standard to me.
Mind you, in theory, working with the mod author should produce better results.
In practice, you get a lot of the sort of patty-cake that goes on in the Crossmod Banter Pack.
Pocket Plane mods and modlist etc.
#10
Posted 28 August 2005 - 01:37 PM
I agree that anyone who has put time and effort into their "baby" should be given credit for their work and should be contacted before you touch anything in their work. Again, this is mostly acknowledgement to the author and simply being polite. We are not hackers here to damage each others work. At least I hope not.
However, if you think that you are going to be able to spend six months working on a project, submit it to a community as open-source (which this all is), and not have someone look under the covers to see how you did it and not copy it, you are in for a disappointment. I wouldn't want to see a new version of BoneHill out there without being told about it first, but I knew when I uploaded it that I can't stop someone from doing that.
Tired of Bhaal? Try some classics mods instead:
Classic Adventures
Official Classic Adventures Website
#11
Posted 28 August 2005 - 02:50 PM
None of this work that we do is copyrighted
Incorrect.
I agree that anyone who has put time and effort into their "baby" should be given credit for their work and should be contacted before you touch anything in their work. Again, this is mostly acknowledgement to the author and simply being polite.
I find that assertion hard to reconcile with your statement that Bioware and Wizards need not be informed of your modding activity, then.
Game content is there to be modded.
Mods can add game content.
Therefore, mods can be modded.
...why does the progression really need to be any more difficult than that?
Again, for quality/damage control purposes, collaboration/information isn't a bad thing, but, strictly speaking, is no more necessary than submitting your mod abstract to Bioware.
Pocket Plane mods and modlist etc.
#12
Posted 28 August 2005 - 03:50 PM
By the way, I have contacted other modders and never gotten a response back. I have some that have said leave my work alone and others nice enough to say just give me credit.
As for copyrights, yes I am sure some modders have actually submitted paperwork to copyright their work. I didn't nor do I ever care to. If I saw that a mod did have a real copyright, I would certainly contact the owner before doing anything with that work. Lawyers calling me at all hours is not something I want to have happen.
Yes, mods can be modified. If we didn't, no one would play CtB or any of the older CoM mods beyond a first attempt. Some mods just need a helping hand to fix them up. As long as you ask before changing someone elses mod (and don't expect them to have to support your changes), I don't see a problem with modding another mod. Hell, look at my sig, most of these are someone elses original mods.
Tired of Bhaal? Try some classics mods instead:
Classic Adventures
Official Classic Adventures Website
#13
Posted 29 August 2005 - 07:46 AM
also, on copyright: unlike patent law, copyright is assigned automatically upon publication, without any submission of paperwork. so, SirBB, you have some degree of copyright in yr own mods, and could issue cease-and-desist letters to ppl making modifications against yr will. (i say some degree, cos i'm uncertain of the extent to which copyright of modified material extends, given that the original material remains property of bioware).
as for public domain: unless mods are issued under copyleft/ FLOSS licences (FLOSS being the current acronym for open source), i'd hazard a guess that they're not public domain at all, cos exisiting copyright laws would apply.
It still smacks of a double standard to me.then they do have to be included in any adaption of their work and do have to be willing collaborators (even tho that has the effect of giving them the right of veto over any adaption of their work).
it might strike you as a double standard, but it isn't. we have, as i'e said, implicit permission to mod bioware content - and insofar as we have that permission, we dont need to ask for further permission to modify content.
similarly, it is valid to presume permission to modify content published by authors who are AWOL and uncontactable - altho as SirBB says, there is a good faith requirement that the person seeking to alter the modded content at least try to contact the modder prior to altering their material.
however, it isn't valid to make this assumption with material published by authors who are still available for content; both because there is the copyright question, and because modding is, as i said, a form of open source publishing (ie, collaborative work) (the fact that most mods aren't published under FLOSS/open source licences doesn't deny that they share other features of FLOSS work practices).
i'm not sure how much weight i would put on the copyright question, given that there is a possibility that bioware, as the original authors, could claim all modded content as their own should push come to shove and their shoving took place in a sympathetic jurisdiction. additionally, enforcing a copyright claim would be far more work than pretty much any modder i can think of would care to engage in - with the possible exception of a certain infamous script troll who shall remain nameless.
i would, however, put a lot of weight on the collaborative work aspects of modding, which require all partners in the work to be in agreement as to the direction of the work, and similarly requires that any partner can leave the project at any point should they be unhappy with it - meaning, as i previously posted, that exising mod authors have an effective veto over alterations to their content. enforcing these rights is relatively easy, and frequently done (viz: the debates about the form of the various BP flavours, and the necessary acocmodations needed to be made by various mod authors) (and viz: that unnamed script troll, who eventually, despite their high-grade troll skills, was forced out of BG/BG2 modding; in part due to their arrogation of other ppl's work).
it's not entirely as clearcut as this, as SirBB implies - the question of fixing unaddressed bugs in mods could well be considered modding (even if the author is still present, an unaddressed bug could well be claimed to be abandoned content - with the implied right to modify without further approval) or it could be considiered hacking (ie, unwanted modification of material, or modification of material against the wishes of the author) - altho it's best addressed on a case-by-case basis. which simply means contacting the author for permission; ie, assuming the author is present, until you've got sufficient evidence to the contrary.
so:
bioware content can be modded, as permission can be validly implied.
other content cannot be modded unless permission has been explicitly given, or can be validly implied.
... and indeed, it isn't a difficult progression at all.
and finally:
Mind you, in theory, working with the mod author should produce better results.
In practice, you get a lot of the sort of patty-cake that goes on in the Crossmod Banter Pack.
i thought that was due to ppl's inner mary-sue getting a public outing?
"A simple test of the relative merits of science and religion is to compare lighting your house at night by prayer or electricity" - A. C. Grayling
"EFF files have saves, too." - CamDawg
|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||
#14 -Ashara-
Posted 29 August 2005 - 08:10 AM
I'd like to note here, that it might be couteous of a modder to make his/her thoughts on the matter public, in case if s/he should become unavailable/retire - not an unusual event in the community. It will make things much easier, and much less awkward to people who'd like to create cross-mod content, with the Cross-mod banter pack's help, or intergrating the additional content into the body of the new mod itself.
#15
Posted 29 August 2005 - 08:31 AM
i thought that was due to ppl's inner mary-sue getting a public outing?
No, if that's going to happen, it happens in isolation. When modders put their heads together, often the result is a pussyfooting around what their characters might actually do in favor of "Oh, I don't want to offend this writer." Or just writing things that don't really make a lot of sense but seem fun at the time.
we have, as i'e said, implicit permission to mod bioware content - and insofar as we have that permission, we dont need to ask for further permission to modify content.
If I don't lock my house, you don't have "implicit permission" to help yourself to what's in my fridge. (or, if you want to extend the analogy, if I don't call the cops on you just because I notice that your recycling bin has my cans of Coke in it--because it's not worth my time to summon a grand jury over it, irk me though it may.)
I still say, if you publish it for the game, it is part of the game and, therefore, fair game for further modification. That has always been my policy about my own work and it is my policy about anybody else's, even though I typically don't, in fact, avail myself of the opportunity to mess with other mods (see the Solaufein "objections" I have created, which neither add nor modify Solaufein content.)
Pocket Plane mods and modlist etc.
#16
Posted 29 August 2005 - 09:19 AM
In the U.S., we have to submit a form to the Library of Congress with a $30 fee for processing to have a literary work copyrighted. There are several money-grabbing websites to help with this. Titles and concepts/plots cannot be copyrighted, only the actual text and illustrations.also, on copyright: unlike patent law, copyright is assigned automatically upon publication, without any submission of paperwork. so, SirBB, you have some degree of copyright in yr own mods, and could issue cease-and-desist letters to ppl making modifications against yr will. (i say some degree, cos i'm uncertain of the extent to which copyright of modified material extends, given that the original material remains property of bioware).
For me, I take a PnP mod, convert it to the BG2 engine, add graphics from other games (Bioware mostly) and scanned images for portraits, (at least I don't use LOTR music). To me, there isn't much "new" material to justify a $30 filing charge.
I have to agree with J that once it goes into the community pool, it is fair game. You can't really stop anyone from abusing your work, so you might as well suck it up and hope the community stays nice to each other.
Tired of Bhaal? Try some classics mods instead:
Classic Adventures
Official Classic Adventures Website
#17
Posted 29 August 2005 - 11:42 AM
In the U.S., we have to submit a form to the Library of Congress with a $30 fee for processing to have a literary work copyrighted.
No.
From the US copyright.gov site:
*****
Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section ?Copyright Registration.?
*****
Pocket Plane mods and modlist etc.
#18
Posted 29 August 2005 - 12:15 PM
But this hinges on the idea that game content IS there to be modded. For NWN or UT2004, both marketted as modding platforms, this might be true, but it seems most unlikely in the case of BG2. It seems, therefore, to come down to whether the creator has any objection to their content being altered.Game content is there to be modded.
Mods can add game content.
Therefore, mods can be modded.
#19
Posted 29 August 2005 - 04:55 PM
True, but if you don't do this, your copyright is basically meaningless. The idea of a copyright is to protect your ideas or work. If you don't make it official, there is nothing they can do for you. Claiming you have an automatic copyright but no way to protect it just doesn't make much sense. What's the point?Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section ?Copyright Registration.?
Whatever the case here, I find this discussion to be very helpful. I will probably spend the next year or so finishing my TC and it would be very discouraging to know that Bioware could stop me at any time. Well, they can stop me from passing it out to players, they can't stop me from making it for my own use.
Tired of Bhaal? Try some classics mods instead:
Classic Adventures
Official Classic Adventures Website
#20 --Eon Blue Apocalypse--
Posted 30 August 2005 - 12:37 PM
True, but if you don't do this, your copyright is basically meaningless. The idea of a copyright is to protect your ideas or work. If you don't make it official, there is nothing they can do for you. Claiming you have an automatic copyright but no way to protect it just doesn't make much sense. What's the point?Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section ?Copyright Registration.?
The point is that we try to behave as we should, rather than behave as we're allowed to. We're looking for the legal boundary in this instance, not the de facto boundary. And even then, unregistered copyright still isn't meaningless, it would hold up in court (apart from the fact that few modders would go to court).