43 replies to this topic

[Kulyok]

Well, since a year and a week have passed, and it was indeed my first post here at FW, I got overwhelmed with nostalgia and desire to post my thoughts on the matter here again. (Though where the hell did my post disappear to?)

I remember why I wanted an Irenicus romance back then; after completing the mod, there was pity and understanding all around, and the phrase "pity=love" is a famous cliche. However, recently I realised there was also another reason, a reason that did not disappear, and a reason that you, Dorotea, might like to know about: the 'boy versus man' thing.

Indeed, when I was playing the Longer Road for the first time, I was struck by realisation that I am having a mature man in a party(and yes, his flaws and bouts only straightened this impression), the feeling I experienced only once, when I played with Anomen. I never met with the same sensation again, and only now I understood how rare it was.

So, I guess I will always associate the Longer Road with the words "a grown man that my PC might love but never will", and I thank you for this. (Well, for the first part, anyway.)



And - sorry, I've been wanting to do this for over a year:

Some man capture you and your friends. He torture you and kill some of you. Why? He wont to take something for his own propose. What propose? Revenge. Revenge for what? He perform serious crime and was pinished. Punishment was too hard? Well, may be.
He take from you what he want and leave you to die. Then he go and kill his home sity. Not only one person - WHOLE SITY. There was children. Little children.
You can understand and forgive him? May be - if you are Saint One. You can fall in love with him?  OK, there is Stokholm's syndrome, but you mean something else...
Of course PS is not you. Let's imagine such story with your friend/sister. What you say to her? I think you sent her to psychoterapist immediately.

MYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Kulyok]

I don't know about everybody else, but I have no idea what you're quoting there at the end.

I suppose that was rather childish of me, but it irked me that the author of the original post denied any possibility for any person to truly regret his actions, to change - and to be loved. The chance is there. If you do not see it, and other people do, why ask them to see a psychoterapist? I admit again, that was not tactful, but such point of view, i.e. "think different=go visit a psychoterapist" does provoke laughter in me. A year ago, it provoked anger. Probably I grew up. Or not.

And as for your disappointment about the dearth of "mature man in a party"... have you never had any of the Bruces in your game? BonsBruce, in particular, is quite masculine, manly, and mature. He wouldn't give any poncy speeches to Ellesime. He'd just belch in her face and knock over the Tree of Life with his bare hands.

I think we view the problem of mature differently. I believe in good old Grandpa Freud - between a man and a woman, it is either "mother-son" or "father-daughter" relationship. With Anomen and Irenicus, I'm a daughter. With Kelsey and Edwin, I'm a mother. And I prefer being a child to being a mother.

NPC Bruce I'll certainly try out.



(Edited for typo)

Edited by Kulyok, 15 September 2005 - 06:32 AM.

[Jyzabyl]

I've always fancied Keldorn myself, now there's a man.

[dorotea]

*Admin edit*

By the way - the next chapter of Ashes is about ready - I am waiting for the editors to finish the corrections, and once again - sorry for the delay!

Edited by Seifer, 21 September 2005 - 12:23 PM.

[disari]

[font=Comic Sans Ms] Actually I do think Jon could be a romance but it wouldn't be a wine and roses or flirty romance it just couldn't be that way with him for several reasons. I do think that he is obsessed with <charname> After all there were a lot of other bhaalspawn to find and probably some other half god children. There is Imoen, Sarevok, and the five and others. He chose the pc for a reason. That could be played in a "sort of" romance. He wants to have a soul of his own but it seems he is set on the pc and no one else will work. At least till LR. I think with LR he shares a soul and could definitely with the previous obsession feel a love for <charname> with the time constraints of TOB it couldn't be a real romance like any of the other NPC romances, Kelsey, Anomen, Solufein or Tsujatha(a very good romance IMHO maybe the best one) Jon has been seriously burned by Ellisime. He is seriously bitter but I do think the "former love" bit at the tree was a pretty good speech for being done with her for good. I just don't think he has an old flame for her except maybe to watch her burn in some. I really don't think he has much on his mind for her except some payback. I kinda always thought he had some basis for that. Killing him outright would have been a much less cruel punishment. I don't think Jon could love her after that. I do think he was searching for some feelings of love and he tried to recreate those because he could they were recent feelings. I think he sees something in the pc that draws him or he wouldn't have been so set on her. So with that all said I think Jon sharing a soul could stir some tender feelings. But PC would have to have some pretty narrow restrictions. Good alignment, and preferably elven, half elven, or maybe human race. I would also think some stat restrictions like high intelligence and wisdom and at least a mediocre charisma. He may have contempt for the elves but he is a snob so I don't think he would go for any other races. I even think human would be a stretch. I really don't think there would be any class restrictions. A romance with Jon would be subtle no bath scenes or such. Any scenes like that would have to be just one and just before the final fight and maybe not then. I don't think a romance check would be necessary in fact I think perhaps if PC was having a romance Jon might be more inclined to romance for the PC because he sees how "true" romance might be. That is just a thought. I think if PC was truly a good character that Jon might see a "possibility of love" and sharing souls really might see PC is much more than ellisime. I would think that you would have to do the correct path for deva, and refuse him a soul of the bhaalspawn, and also restore Nalla's soul. Nothing else about Nalla just that you restored her soul that would be enough. Then I think Jon might do some things like "you see Jon staring at you across the room with a pensive look on his face like he is trying to unravel some puzzle" Or he might have two or five conversations where he asks questions of PC but none of them would be necessarily construed as love. Maybe some questions about other NPC's Khalid comes to mind there would be many ways to play it. But you would have to keep Irenicus in character making him all of a sudden sweet would not work. I do think it could be done but I am not sure that the real romantics out there would be happy without a good bath scene but with him that just couldn't be the way it would work. But in the very end I think he could after Amkethran and you go back to the pocket plane have some sort of speech. And maybe one scene (maybe) No player initiated talk nothing like that just a very subtle thing and if you messed up much at all he wouldn't do it because he is very sceptical about love after ellisime and would have to find someone really special to even think about it again. So Dorothea what do you think.

[dorotea]

Eh, gods. I am sorry, but after giving it a serious thought - and that was few years back, I finally decided once and forever that there can be no romance between JI and PC - at least not in LR storyline.

You have to realise that 300 years old elven wizard wanting to be God ain't your average loveboy. I am sure Kelsy and Tsu romances are very rewarding for ladies. But Irenicus's obsession with Ellesime , I fear, cannot be treated as your average schoolyard obsession.

Sorry.

[SirLancelot]

I think you are right on this subject, but.... i hope it doesn't means that you have retired from modding, then

Edited by SirLancelot, 07 January 2006 - 11:59 AM.

[jester]

I have to agree that it would be a long shot, especially from Jon's side.

I especially agree that time is way to limited to pull it off.

@PC's could never romance Jon
For some of my PCs you would not have to retreat to the Stockholm Syndrome as very many chaotic neutral or evil PCs dumped their old crew in CI thinking they had outgrown them anyway and there is no refund for adventures gone awry. As with Sarevok, they share a common goal, and for my yet to be played priestess of Iyachtu Xvim those who have the strength to take what they want should get it. (Thinking about it they may not romance Sarevok or Jon for their failure, but I have to think about that character a lot more)

Also while I enjoy banters I think romances are highly overrated.

Edited by jester, 07 January 2006 - 02:36 PM.

[Delight]

How about a mod that would allow to humilate and rape Irenicus?
I think that <CHARNAME> deserves a little revenge?

[dorotea]

Folks, I might be a weird one but I do not enjoy the ideas of either Stokholm Syndrome type romance - IMHO it smells too strong of S&M, or the revenge type enslave and rape situation, that would be pure S&M.

THe only romance for Irenicus I could possibly ever write would be a Dostoevsky style 'Crime and Punishment' story, and I doubt it would be very popular since it involves genuine repentance and restoration of the lost Spirit, and deviates too much into the russian side of me, so to speak.

Somehow I never enjoy the evil side that much...

[disari]

I do see your points about romance with Jon to be a very bizarre twist. My point was that Jon is obsessed with <charname>. I thought this before Longer Road. He had a lot of choices for Bhaalspawn and I am sure other half-god children. But he was fixated on PC. To have shared and had the soul of PC would have made the connection even stronger for him. Obviously he hand picked PC because he was drawn to (her) in the first place. He chose her soul.
I have always seen Jon's character as a tragic one. Sure he is the villian we all love to hate but Bioware gave him a lot of depth and character development. Something Sarevok never had till TOB. Irenicus IMO did a seriously bad thing and deserved to be punished. Killing him outright would have been a "good' punishment. Of course then the storyline of the game wouldn't have happened. I've always thought that Ellesime and the elves were as much to blame as Irenicus. Ellisime is the character I have always thought was the real villian of the piece.
In Jon's place what would 'you' do you regain your soul?? As PC of course I had issues with his choice of 'my soul', but there was a bit of understanding of his motivation. I do think that Jon is obsessed with Ellisime but I don't think he loves her anymore. We are always most angry with those we love and even when we don't love them anymore we would like to see them suffer because of the hurt we received. Hey I am a psychologist. I play BG to relax and get some of my cases off my mind for a while (escapism). But motivation and analysis is something I do. Ellisime took his soul and that was a really low blow (and very juvenile of her by the way) because of her own anger with Jon not being subservient to her and grateful to be her consort. She really screwed up being queen by not just killing him. It would have been the queenly thing to do. I also think she really didn't know or understand Joneleth. I think his fixation for Ellisime was one of revenge and not love. He was trying to feel something being without his soul. He was trying to clone a "better" Ellisime one that he could love. But not the old one he just wanted some payback.
It is my conjecture he saw something in the PC that drew him to that particular soul. Irenicus is nothing if not obsessive. Perhaps it was a nobility or some of the things that he lacked but for whatever reason he did fixate on PC. I think he kept all the reminders of Ellisime to make him not forget his purpose to get payback on her. Hate is the other side of the coin of love. I do think he wants a half god soul to get even with Ellisime since she is half divine. I get the impression she thought she was too good for Jon because of her position and her bloodline.
I don't think Jon could love her anymore after she took his essence or soul. Be obsessed with revenge on her sure in his place I would want to make her suffer too. She wronged him badly by just not killing him.
I believe Irenicus wants to feel something and PC sparks something in him.
As for romance with Jon well that is a longshot for the PC to feel anything. I do think a connection is there after sharing so much. I do however think Jon could feel some higher feelings for PC. Because through everything all Jon ever wanted was to be loved for himself by Ellesime and the elves and maybe even Bodhi. I do think that Jon could see the PC as his saviour in the right circumstances and perhaps make a bond of friendship or something to that effect. A romance would be a longshot and would take a very much Longer Road than TOB.
I played the Tsujatha mod with Longer Road and since poor Tsu died in the end. (in the ending postscripts)
I thought since PC had continued her adventures perhaps then poor ole Jon might have had a chance if he had continued with PC. My PC was elven. That is a whole lot of time to make a much healthier relationship.
No a romance with Jon at the end would have to be all on his side with hints. PC has a whole lot of issues to get over with him and I personally think that Stockholm would be too weird. I think that Jon might however in a postscript hang with PC because of the soul bonds they shared. And whatever you can say about Jon he would be a valuable addition to further adventures he is a kick butt mage I loved having him in my party.
Except I couldn't do Shadowkeeper.
After all Jon is obsessed with the PC and I think might just hang with her to see what happened next and maybe get a happy ending someday with that new soul he got. If nothing else I think he just might hang around because of his attachment and even affection for PC. If PC was elven (or just because she is half god could live a long time) and did one of the romances Kelsey, Valygar (TS), or Anomen, they are all human and would not exist nearly as long as PC. Then maybe in the end Jon could be an option for the PC. Even my poor Tsu died in the Postscript. In the prior post I was not really for a full scale romance just some hints of a deeper connection from Jon. And just maybe some further connection in the further travels or even if the PC took godhood. (my pet peeve in all the romances is that path ends them all).
As obsessive as Jon is I think he might just hang around the PC for a long time because he does feel something and is grateful. That was the point of the above post not Stockholm. Just a deeper connection and a better end

[Delight]

THe only romance for Irenicus I could possibly ever write would be a Dostoevsky style 'Crime and Punishment' story, and I doubt it would be very popular since it involves genuine repentance and restoration of the lost Spirit, and deviates too much into the russian side of me, so to speak.

What's wrong with Dostojevski?
I've read about 10 first pages of "Crime and Punishment" and I watched the movie based on it and I think that a mod/novel about Irenicus and PC made in that style would be really interesting.

[dorotea]

2Disari

It is in fact very touching that the mod made you want to think of the possible romance for Irenicus and PC. I read your latest post and I have to say that I understand what you meant better now.

Yes, I suppose such a scenario does not sound completely impossible. Although as per original mod if PC manages to redeem Jon the latter loses memory of his previous life and starts anew as a level 1 character - as a sort of divine punishnment for his sins. He is supposedly sent on a quest that could lead to his reconnection with the Elven Spirit - as the Soul he is granted is still only a mortal one.

Maybe you might have a little fun from reading Bitter Grey Ashes? It is a long term project of mine dealing with Irenicus in his 'new life' in a format of a novel - not game module. You might find it pleasing. The link is in my signature. The story is written from Irenicus's PoV, btw.

As for Romance... Well, I did have some notes on the possible few romatic dreams for a female elven PC. But honestly, the project seemed too ambiguous to me back then. So I started to write a novel instead.

And thank you very much for your post in this topic .

2Delight

Well, if you read The C&P and least partially, and seen the movie, you probably realise that the redeemed criminal - in that case Raskolnikov - is the central figure of the novel. Therefore it is possible to concentrate on his persona and his redemption. Any format of the Romance assumes the PC is the central pivotal figure. It has to be this way - such is the format of the game.

ToB is simply too short to play out a 'proper' long redemption-romance storyline.

Once again, I apologize for being 'difficult' on the matter and humbly suggest that you try to read Bitter Grey Ashes - you might actually like it.

Cheers and be well.

[Delight]

I've read all posted chapters of BGA some time ago and I'm eagerly waiting for more .
I love how you portrayed Irenicus .

[disari]

I did read "ashes" I've been eagerly awaiting the next chapter. I even read what you have of 'No name"
you should finish that too. DIS

[dorotea]

Evil me have been going through a dry spell in writing... the acculumulation of personal problems does not help... I am sorry folks, I do plan to return to writing Ashes... but I cant concentrate on anything lately. Maybe it will pass, I certainly hope so. But this is the longest writer block I ever had and it might be permanent. Sorry.

[Arcalian]

Evil me have been going through a dry spell in writing... the acculumulation of personal problems does not help... I am sorry folks, I do plan to return to writing Ashes... but I cant concentrate on anything lately. Maybe it will pass, I certainly hope so. But this is the longest writer block I ever had and it might be permanent. Sorry.

Dorotea must write! Dorotea must write! Dorotea must Dorotea must Dorotea must write! Gah, I sound like a cheerleader.

All I can offer is my support and testimonial. I am still playing this mod. I got my own computer up and running again, and kicked off what I like to think of as the "Adversarial Relationship" party; Jon, Sarevok, Bohdi, Mellisan, and the hated Saemon Havarian. Melly proved to be tricky. This is Mellisan's "good" aspect, of course, that you meet in Saradush. The thing I learned though is you CANNOT control-q her within the city. If you do, she simply teleports away and leaves you unable to even remove her from the party. You have to wait until you are oustide the walls, and once you have her in the party you cannot go back into the city by Pocket Plane teleport or she will pull her dissapearing trick again. But I find that if I give her the elven armor and the flail of ages she does just fine.

Originally I wanted Carras (the Smuggler lieutenant in the cave) but I found that he was impossible--you cannot leave the cave with him, once outside he dissapears. Saemon I thought also impossible; you have to control-q him in that brief window after the guards hes arguing with turn hostile but before he teleports away. The game designers must have had plans for him though, as he has a couple battle cries, most amusingly "For glory, and all the women that go with it!"

The only realy sour aspect of all this is I can't level Bhodi up at all. If I try the game crashes. I cannot program worth a darn. I just wish there was some code I could CLUA in that would make her levelable.

All of this is to say, some of us still want to read your stories and play your mods and look forward to more work from you. Hang in there Dorotea Maginifico! We are waiting for your muse to sing again! *hugs*

[Arcalian]

Why don't you take Valen, run a "Valen" to "Bodhi" replacement on all her TRAs, change her portrait and animation to Bodhi's, and go with that fully functional vampire if you really have to have Bodhi?

I guess you misread my post...I DO have her, I just can't level her up. Life goes on.

Besides, I wouldn't know how to code any of that.