96 replies to this topic

[Grunker]

Those modders who refuse to accept the new platform will be the ones most affected by their decision, since it will drastically reduce the number of people who will be willing to play their mods (rather like those modders who refuse to use WeiDU). So let them get on with it, I say .

Even though it may seem a tad harsh, I agree with this. It has to be the respected modder's own choice whether he/she wants to do this merger, the creators of BGT and TuTu mainly. The argument to not realize the merger because less players would download [insert random modder]'s mod, is not a solid argument when so many players/modders are keen on the idea of a merger.

[seanas]

an excellent summation and evaluation there asc: you sure you work in scientific research, and aren't in reality a facilitator/ social worker? but anyway...

i'm quite sanguine about yr conclusions, even where they disagree with my own opinions; with the exception of making ToTSC/ TOB optional. i just dont see (my earlier comments about not caring about ToTSC notwithstanding) why Full Installation =/= Full Installation. personally, given the old machine i game on, i'd love to be able to install mods on a recommended or minimum install; i could do with the HDD space, even if it meant swapping CDs out of drives every second minute. and yet that's not a rational expectation, and no modder would ever support it, whether or not it was techincally feasible. similarly, noone supports modding on an unpatched game; so why there's an expectation that incomplete installs would be supported, i can't work out. still, i'm not willing to die in a ditch about it.

on the other hand, i'm extremely pleased you mentioned

12. Compressing merger-installed files
This was a passing comment introduced by seanas that the merger should compress its files in BIFF format so that the override directory is not clogged, and the game performs faster, but was not discussed further.

the single biggest improvement that weiduised BGT, TDD, SoS, DToTSC, NToTSC, etc, have brought has been to biff the override contents as part of their install procedures - for an old machine like my own, it's revolutionary (and answers a request domi raised in the wishlist thread, about any merger doing away with Tutu's stutter): my current BP-BGT-TDD-weidu runs faster than any previous modded game, including Tutu or various flavours of BP. so i'm glad this didnt get lost in the discussion.

finally:

Those modders who refuse to accept the new platform will be the ones most affected by their decision, since it will drastically reduce the number of people who will be willing to play their mods (rather like those modders who refuse to use WeiDU). So let them get on with it, I say

similar sentiments have been expressed at all points since the development of Tutu, about those of us foolish enough to persist with the old, ugly BGT - and yet here we are, discussing a merger between Tutu and BGT.

so instead of such short-sighted insousciance, i suggest we actually *do* try to bring on board everyone possible in pursuit of an idealised BG1 to BG2 conversion - otherwise, in a couple of years time, we'll be having these discussions again, defeating the whole purpose of a merged install. if we're willing to jump thru unnecessary hurdles in order to bring more users onboard - such as supporting incomplete BG games, as i decribed above - then why are we not willing to jump thru additional hurdles to bring other modders on board? after all, if we dont, we'll be reducing the pool of possible users far more than if we were to not support incomplete installs.

[NiGHTMARE]

Note my deliberate use of the word "refuse". I never said the merger team (or anyone else for that matter) shouldn't attempt to convince modders to support the merger, but if that doesn't work I don't really see what else you can do about it.

Tutu is a "rival" project, not a successor to BGT. A more valid comparson would be with the old BGT versus the more recent WeiDU version; I don't exactly see many BGT modders who have refused to switch there.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 21 January 2006 - 05:56 AM.

[Ascension64]

BGT has always used the incremented system, but uses ?modding-correct? chapter names instead. Therefore, a chapter global of 1 refers to prologue and chapter 1 simultaneously, so that a chapter global of 2 refers to chapter 2, and so on.

...Therefore, I propose for modding convenience that the current BGT chapter system is used.

Could you please say it again - slowly? (An answer to the question: "For Chapter 4, will GLOBAL variable be 4 or 5?" will do.)

B...G...T......has...always...used...the...alright, seriously...

For Chapter 4, the GLOBAL variable will be 4. However, in this proposal for the merger, Chapter 4 will start when the player retrieves the notes from Mulahey's chest. In classic BG1, Chapter 4 will start when the player retrieves the notes from Tazok's chest. Therefore, this is 'modding-correct' but relative to BG1, the entire she-bang is incremented by one.

[SimDing0]

BGT and Tutu should be withdrawn from download once a superior version appears. When I update Quest Pack I don't leave old versions available because some twit won't update.

[Thauron]

As long as modders still want to work on these old platforms and as long players want to play just Tutu or BGT, they should remain available, SimDing0
So, f.e. if Vlad refuses to change his mods for compatibility with the new merger, BGT should stay available - doing otherwise would be frustrating for our players, won't it?

[Kulyok]

For Chapter 4, the GLOBAL variable will be 4. However, in this proposal for the merger, Chapter 4 will start when the player retrieves the notes from Mulahey's chest. In classic BG1, Chapter 4 will start when the player retrieves the notes from Tazok's chest. Therefore, this is 'modding-correct' but relative to BG1, the entire she-bang is incremented by one.

Okay.... which essentially means that all chapter checks in BG1 NPC for BGT are totally screwed up, since for the moment, they are identical to TUTU version chapter checks.
(And some romances will never get to their proper endings, but never mind.)


That's why I totally agree with Sim: make the merger. Take TUTU 4 and TUTU out. Take BGT out. And then there will no longer be BG1 NPC for TUTU and BG1 NPC for BGT. There will be one, true BG1 NPC version with regular updates and proper support, maintained by people whom I admire and trust and to whom I submitted my materials in the first place.

... if Domi agrees to this, naturally.

[SimDing0]

As long as modders still want to work on these old platforms and as long players want to play just Tutu or BGT, they should remain available, SimDing0

No. If modders want to continue working from unpatched BG2 and not support the official patch then that doesn't mean anybody should give a fuck what they think.

[SimDing0]

For Chapter 4, the GLOBAL variable will be 4. However, in this proposal for the merger, Chapter 4 will start when the player retrieves the notes from Mulahey's chest. In classic BG1, Chapter 4 will start when the player retrieves the notes from Tazok's chest. Therefore, this is 'modding-correct' but relative to BG1, the entire she-bang is incremented by one.

...and evidently I didn't understand this properly. This is an inferior method to Tutu 6's chapter numbering. It still requires mod updating, but it has the far worse effect of a visual difference ingame. Arbitrarily changing what chapter numbers the player sees is not acceptable. Really, if you're going to increase the globals by one anyway, there's no excuse not to label the prologue "Prologue" and be done with it.

[kharan5876]

How exactly does the new Tutu handle the chapters?
I'd be in favor of something that retains the original bg1 chapter numbers if possible. I'd rather my journal say chapter 1 in candlekeep even tho I'm supposedly in the prologue/intro instead of moving them all up by one. That one small inconsistency is much better than the game-wide inconsistency of incremented chapters which is a distortion from the original bg1 content.

Edited by kharan5876, 21 January 2006 - 09:58 AM.

[Ascension64]

How exactly does the new Tutu handle the chapters?
I'd be in favor of something that retains the original bg1 chapter numbers if possible. I'd rather my journal say chapter 1 in candlekeep even tho I'm supposedly in the prologue/intro instead of moving them all up by one. That one small inconsistency is much better than the game-wide inconsistency of incremented chapters which is a distortion from the original bg1 content.

I thought I covered this already, and I'll repeat then:

In TuTu v6 beta, Prologue=GLOBAL Chapter 1; Chapter 1=GLOBAL Chapter 2; etc.
So if I wanted something to happen during the end-user Chapter 5, I would have to think "Right, this is actually a chapter GLOBAL variable of 6!". That's messy, in my opinion. Cosmetically 'correcting' the end-user chapter to the variable makes for more sense and less confusion.

[Promilus]

I read that post and I don't know what to think..I am not against merger as long as it will be the best sides of each mods..
BGT=BG1+BG1mods(TuTu Mostly)+BG2+BG2mods+BGT(BP mostly) mods..all in one installation...with transition etc. If merger can't keep that I just F*CK it...

[Grunker]

BGT=BG1+BG1mods(TuTu Mostly)+BG2+BG2mods+BGT(BP mostly) mods..all in one installation...with transition etc.

Well, if the merger is kept as slim as possible and (eventually) any other mods will be available for later downloading, or optional (such as transition) that will satisfy everybody, and not only you, so then what is the problem?

[Usually Lurking]

I've been following this discussion rather intently and finally decided I had some things I would like to add. I think a merger of these projects would have an overall impact of benefiting community as a whole, player and modder alike. I have heard good things about both and I think if the teams that support each could work together on a joint effort the end result would exceed even the fine products we currently have. I also believe that for the merged product to be sucessful there should be no loyalty on the part of the MT (merger team) to either of the current products.

Preamble aside here are the points/concerns I would like to express:

1) The MT should have a strict "adopt and go" process that takes only the best of each offering and does not waste time, energy or emotion on arguing over which process for doing X is better. Discuss, decide then do. Perhaps a review board of sorts with one person from each of the involved boards to be final authority on issues that become major sticking points.

2) Barring a complete download that included everything, I would be in favor of a "core" download coupled with a conglomeration "tweak pack" each for rules, visualizations and NPC's to minimize the amount of files the players have to obtain and keep track of. I would also be in favor of the option to have the in-game transition from BG1 to BG2, or not, available as part of the "core" download.

3) With regard to availability of pre-merger applications I see merits to both SimDing0 and Ascension64's views. I would propose a sort of middle ground. Maintain the availability of both Tutu and BGT with the caveat that neither shall be supported for development, bug-fixing or other issues going forward. Give it about a year then either remove their availablity or offer any/all modders still working in just that venue the chance to host it themselves.

4) To date I have not seen the mention of save games. I don't know about others but I do not have hard drive limitations so I have numerous installs and saves. I tend to save after the startup intro when creating a new character and various important places throughout the game (major changes in party members or events). Sometimes I like to go back to favorite characters and try a different path or party. The point made by domi_ash regarding people not making the conversion to the joint venture due to lack of mod availability could also be of concern based on whether or not players are willing to abandon current games or old saved ones. At this point I would like to suggest the MT try and incorporate a "save converter" that would allow players to effectively import old save games with all the variables properly updated as required. Hence they could pick right up where they left off with no gameplay interuptions.


Thank you

[kharan5876]

Preserving saved games is just way too difficult if not impossible. Theres so many factors to consider it just can't and shouldn't be done.

[kharan5876]

Those kinds of things arent going to be disabled if you have TOB installed. That wouldnt make much sense.

Edited by kharan5876, 23 January 2006 - 06:27 PM.

[Ascension64]

I would rather prefer to work on the incompatibiity issue on a case by case basis. If you prefer the MT to give you 4 weeks notice to allow testing, and to release the updated moficiation at the same time as the merger project itself, then we shall do say, if the decision unanimous, for your particular modification(s). If other people just want to sit back and wait till the merger project is released before they perform any updates, then that can be accommodated as well.

It is entirely for the benefit of the MT to make the co-release of all mods that were available for TUTU/BGT at the time of the release of the new platform. Imagine, that you release the new platform. Imagine, that little to no mods are updated properly. Imagine, what the players who have multi-mod BGT or TUTU installations will do. I know that I will simply keep my TUTU4/14 and ignore the new platform.

Then I ask you, regardless of whether you want to see a merger or not, if we all started working now at our own pace's - time, mods, and real life willing - when would you want to release the merger (i.e. what would be your time frame)? Then, what would your time frame be if you were also expected to update the compatibility of at least 10 complicated mods and test them to 'almost' perfect playability (i.e. minimal bugs remaining)?