75 replies to this topic

[grogerson]

I know NEJ is slowly bringing IWD1 into BG2/BGT.

I have heard TUTUing IWD1 was tried once, unsuccessfully, but I've found nothing to substantiate this (therefore it is but a rumor to me).

Is there any place I can go to find out more on this, other than the IWD TUTU forum (this is porting to the IWD2 engine)?

[Deathsangel]

http://forums.pocket...11249.msg163320 is about IWD II. I don't know anything of of IWD I

Edited by Deathsangel, 27 February 2006 - 11:50 AM.

[grogerson]

Thanks, but not what I'm looking for. Icewindgate is porting BG2 into the IWD2 engine, and appears to be dead-ended at the moment.

And IWD-TUTU over at (I believe) G3 is porting IWD into the IWD2 engine as well.

The IWD-TUTU forum mentions a previous attempt at porting IWD to the BG2 engine, but little else.

Anyone else have any knowledge of that attempt?

Thanks ahead of time.

[pushmonkey]

japheth (the guy who made the original Tutu) was working on it, but he's been MIA for awhile.

[Grim Squeaker]

Anyone else have any knowledge of that attempt?

Thanks ahead of time.

Yes. I ran into problems with converting curious commands like BitGlobal. Also, Japh disappeared, which didn't help production much

I know there are still a lot of us wouldn't love to see IWD with NPCs, so hopefully the project will live again someday.

[Chevalier]

I know NEJ is slowly bringing IWD1 into BG2/BGT.

Has any of you played the latest NeJ2? It is so much better than IWD1!!! It should bring all or most of IWD1 into BG2. I think it will happen much faster than someone starting now to convert IWD1 into BG2.

[SimDing0]

I'd really rather play an IWD port that doesn't include arbitrary portions of Vlad.

The conversion project got to an alpha stage--I think it converts areas and creatures and stuff, which might make a reasonable starting point for a future attempt. Unique engine features like multiple death variables, internals, and bitmasking were the primary problems.

We also started drafting out NPC concepts for development once the core conversion was done, but on reflection that was rather hopeful.

[Grim Squeaker]

I'd really rather play an IWD port that doesn't include arbitrary portions of Vlad.

The conversion project got to an alpha stage--I think it converts areas and creatures and stuff, which might make a reasonable starting point for a future attempt. Unique engine features like multiple death variables, internals, and bitmasking were the primary problems.

We also started drafting out NPC concepts for development once the core conversion was done, but on reflection that was rather hopeful.

Agreed. I think the best hope for the project is bribing Fred once he's finished with IWD1Tutu, as he'll probably be one of the people with the best knowledge of the engine in the modding community.

Unfortunately true on the NPCs. It'll be nice to revive the idea someday though...

[grogerson]

From a modified engine to the main engine... lots of differences to make work-arounds for.

Between Vlad and Fred's work, who knows...

And yes, I concur with Sim. I'd prefer IWD as a stand-alone, from first level to whatever TotLM tops at.

Thanks, all.

Hope dies hard. Here's hoping.

[Salk]

FredSRichardson's attempt to run IWD1 with IWD2 engine is where I lay most of my hopes...

Edited by Salk, 01 March 2006 - 01:43 AM.

[Vlad]

What do you have against NeJ2? Instead of helping all of us (modders and players) to finish the existing and really great project and enjoy it, somebody just starts an opposite one. I don't see ANY reason to launch another IWD-BG2 conversion taking into account amount of work we have already done. We have all the features of BG2 implemented: well developed NPCs with their banters, interjections, quests, romances, all areas are converted, all items and scripts are converted, new spells are added. I'm eagerly waiting for someone like Asc^64 comes and makes a light installer for NeJ2 to decrease the installation size. Could you do this Sim for all of us?

[EDIT]

The conversion project got to an alpha stage--I think it converts areas and creatures and stuff, which might make a reasonable starting point for a future attempt.

Well, you don't need to convert it, but just ask me because I have already converted everything including scripts (you probably know that there is a different scripting system in IWD). Sim, could you post a link by the way? It's needless to say that I'd be happy to share the converted resources with anyone who need them.

Edited by Vlad, 25 April 2006 - 03:38 AM.

[SimDing0]

My understanding of NeJ is as follows:

1) It inserts IWD into BG2 rather than replacing it.
2) It includes various changes to the original content, and the NPCs are included by default, rather than providing a faithful conversion base.

I'd want to change both of these for a conversion, and I'm inclined to suspect it would be more work to track down the alterations NeJ makes than it would to simply convert things again.

(Incidentally, I'm intrigued that you supported BGT-WeiDU, which represents an all-time low in modding collaboration, while you're trying to persuade me otherwise here.)

[Vlad]

1) It inserts IWD into BG2 rather than replacing it.

Yes, it is. I personally do not like IWD in a form of IWD. IMHO, if you convert IWD into BG2 engine it won't make IWD better. You have to add NPCs and their interactions, banters, romances, flirts at least, something which would resemble BG2. Otherwise, the fate of the project will be the same as of IWG2. IWD is a pure cRPG in a style of Diablo without interactions between NPCs in your group. It was actually a reason for me to start NeJ project.

2) It includes various changes to the original content, and the NPCs are included by default, rather than providing a faithful conversion base.

Well, it should include various changes, otherwise we are destined to stay with the original dummy IWD game. If you want to inherit the style and spirit of BG2, you have to include new NPCs by default. Jannette has already written hundreds (!) of pages of all possible interactions, quests, banters etc. related to NeJ. There are 5 (!) well-developed NPCs (by default) in a style of original BG2.

I'd want to change both of these for a conversion, and I'm inclined to suspect it would be more work to track down the alterations NeJ makes than it would to simply convert things again.

It's up to you, Sim. Just have fun. Personally I don't see how pure conversion to BG2 engine would make IWD better. I can understand that converting BG1 to BG2 with TuTu will enhance the gameplay by better graphic resolution, better game rules, kits, newer abilities and spells, but with IWD these changes become irrelevant in my opinion after installation of HoW and TotL.

(Incidentally, I'm intrigued that you supported BGT-WeiDU, which represents an all-time low in modding collaboration, while you're trying to persuade me otherwise here.)

I don't try to persuade you in anything. Do what you like, but there is no need to criticise a good project of mine. If you would play NeJ2, and then say "I don't like it", it's okay. But as you have never played it, you cannot post such an opinion. Really, it's not fair and very provocative. Chev has played NeJ2 several times and he posts his own opinion. What is the source of your opinion? This is called a rumour, and I ask you kindly not to spread rumours about my work.

Regarding BGT modding, which you tentatively called *an all-time low*, well I have always supported it because I really like it. I have played it several times and fully enjoyed it. I do not see why it is *low* to support such an excellent project as BGT-WeiDU and to help modding community enjoying it. Moreover, I also do this for myself because I really like the game platform created by BGT-WeiDU. By the way, I consider releasing two versions of NeJ2 7.0 - stand-alone and for BGT specifically.

Edited by Vlad, 25 April 2006 - 06:20 AM.

[Grim Squeaker]

Yes, it is. I personally do not like IWD in a form of IWD. IMHO, if you convert IWD into BG2 engine it won't make IWD better. You have to add NPCs and their interactions, banters, romances, flirts at least, something which would resemble BG2. Otherwise, the fate of the project will be the same as of IWG2. IWD is a pure cRPG in a style of Diablo without interactions between NPCs in your group. It was actually a reason for me to start NeJ project.

...

Well, it should include various changes, otherwise we are destined to stay with the original dummy IWD game. If you want to inherit the style and spirit of BG2, you have to include new NPCs by default. Jannette has already written hundreds (!) of pages of all possible interactions, quests, banters etc. related to NeJ. There are 5 (!) well-developed NPCs (by default) in a style of original BG2.

But we don't want it in 'the style of BG2'. We want IWD on the BG2 engine. This is because BG2's version of the IE is much, much better because we can add NPCs if we want to and has much better scripting commands etc. However, just because we can add NPCs doesn't mean we should force our new NPCs onto the player (who may not like our dozen NPCs and want to use someone elses).

And if you did want to add all that stuff by default, why on earth would you insert it into BG2 as opposed to making it 'more BG2ified IWD' standalone?

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 25 April 2006 - 06:29 AM.

[Vlad]

And if you did want to add all that stuff by default, why on earth would you insert it into BG2 as opposed to making it 'more BG2ified IWD' standalone?

Good question, Grim! Actually, it was started as a TC, when TeamBG developed a "stripping" project. The first area created in NeJ actually replaced AR0602. I wrote a new game script then, and everything worked fine. Then after some considerations and hot discussion on this issue with our initial team, we came to conclusion to leave BG2 as an option. People asked for BG2 NPCs, so it didn't make sense to exclude BG2 at all. It is history, but history can be changed. I don't see any problem now to leave only essential engine biffs, and to start the game in the first IWD area, and not in BG2. However, as the project has already turned to combine both games, it would be a big miss from the storyline point of view.

Edited by Vlad, 25 April 2006 - 06:54 AM.

[SimDing0]

vlad

[grogerson]

Tutu and BGT each have their place. I, personally, would like to play IWD as IWD, not as a part of something else. That is why I started this thread in the first place.

Vlad, you may like your way best, but there are others like me who would prefer a basic game where they can go from first level on in an independent story. This would also give another setting for modders to fiddle with, adding quests, NPCs, areas, etc....

I have yet to try BG1Tutu, since I prefer the saga style of play (sorry, Sim, you loose this one ), but would definitely go for an IWD1Tutu in BG2 (okay, Sim, we both agree here ).

And there's more than enough room for both styles of play, so why not give the idea a chance.

[Ascension64]

Here we go again...

Anyway, in my opinion, I don't see any need to convert IWD to any other engine at all. I read about better scripting commands and such, but unless people are intending to 'mod' IWD in a significant manner warranting a conversion to different scripting commands, I think this kind of project is truly a waste of time. I agree that converting BG1 to use the BG2 engine was a great move (barring comparing the manner in which this was done to date) because of accessibility of better graphics, higher resolutions, and of course, better support for BG1 mods. There is no need to perform any of these improvements to IWD, and works perfectly as a standalone game.

On this matter, I also think IWD22Tutu is a waste of time as well.

I am, however, all ears as to what Grim Squeaker's etc. is in...

But we don't want it in 'the style of BG2'. We want IWD on the BG2 engine. This is because BG2's version of the IE is much, much better because we can add NPCs if we want to and has much better scripting commands etc. However, just because we can add NPCs doesn't mean we should force our new NPCs onto the player (who may not like our dozen NPCs and want to use someone elses).

Edited by Ascension64, 25 April 2006 - 11:06 PM.

[Grim Squeaker]

Anyway, in my opinion, I don't see any need to convert IWD to any other engine at all. I read about better scripting commands and such, but unless people are intending to 'mod' IWD in a significant manner warranting a conversion to different scripting commands, I think this kind of project is truly a waste of time.

The reason we want that is that we do want to mod it. The IWD2BG2 project that japh was working on was mainly masterminded by Sim and that plan was that Sim, Andyr, myself and various others were going to make a series of NPCs to make IWD less hack'n'slashish.

On this matter, I also think IWD22Tutu is a waste of time as well.

Okay, we need to be careful with names here as IWD22Tutu doesn't make much sense. Do you mean IWD2 to BG1Tutu? Because that doesn't mean much...

The projects that I know of in production are BG1Tutu ("BG1-to-2"), IWD1Tutu ("IWD1-to-2"), Icewind Gate (BG2 to IWD2) and the unnamed IWD1 to BG2 project mentioned above. The reasons for BG1Tutu and IWD1 to BG2 are obvious now. The other two projects are about implementation of the games under 3E rules, which would be extremely cool, however Icewind Gate suffered from the fact that you were converting from an NPC allowable version of the engine to a non-NPC allowabale version, which caused fuckups. IWD1Tutu is alright though as neither game has NPCs.

Edit:

This is because BG2's version of the IE is much, much better because we can add NPCs if we want to and has much better scripting commands etc

The 'etc' was in reference to various other miscellaneous improvements to the engine between the games that we are used to in BG2 modding.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 26 April 2006 - 02:39 AM.

[Ascension64]

The reason we want that is that we do want to mod it. The IWD2BG2 project that japh was working on was mainly masterminded by Sim and that plan was that Sim, Andyr, myself and various others were going to make a series of NPCs to make IWD less hack'n'slashish.

Inform me here, and everyone else. How complex must an NPC need to be in IWD to warrant inclusion of BG2:ToB scripting commands? In other words, please give some examples, or a complete analysis, of commands which make BG2:ToB scripting far superior to the IWD:ToTL system that will be of dominant use in the making of NPCs. I don't have IWD installed, so I unfortunately cannot check this myself, but a quick browse of what is known in IESDP seems to suggest that the IWD:ToTL scripting engine is actually more advanced than the BG2:ToB one, not vice versa. Some of the standard BG2:ToB 2DA are missing, such as INTERDIA.2DA and NPCLEVEL.2DA, but I'm sure there are non-detrimental workarounds that don't require the massive effort of converting IWD1-to-BG2.

Okay, we need to be careful with names here as IWD22Tutu doesn't make much sense. Do you mean IWD2 to BG1Tutu? Because that doesn't mean much...

The projects that I know of in production are BG1Tutu ("BG1-to-2"), IWD1Tutu ("IWD1-to-2"), Icewind Gate (BG2 to IWD2) and the unnamed IWD1 to BG2 project mentioned above. The reasons for BG1Tutu and IWD1 to BG2 are obvious now. The other two projects are about implementation of the games under 3E rules, which would be extremely cool, however Icewind Gate suffered from the fact that you were converting from an NPC allowable version of the engine to a non-NPC allowabale version, which caused fuckups. IWD1Tutu is alright though as neither game has NPCs.

Yeah, I meant Icewind Gate, but since that is in the other direction, it could be OK. Did you mean you were converting a non-NPC allowable version (BG2) to an NPC allowable version (IWD2) was difficult, instead of vice versa? If so, can you not just Kill(Players)?