75 replies to this topic

[Grim Squeaker]

Inform me here, and everyone else. smile.gif How complex must an NPC need to be in IWD to warrant inclusion of BG2:ToB scripting commands? In other words, please give some examples, or a complete analysis, of commands which make BG2:ToB scripting far superior to the IWD:ToTL system that will be of dominant use in the making of NPCs.

The scripting commands aren't what's necessary for the NPCs, they are for general modding of the game which would be made easier, and thats one of the secondary reasons for making a conversion. The main reason is the NPC issue, which is the fact that the IWD engine cannot handle NPCs in the same way that BG2 can. It's something to do with adding them to the GAM file not happening automatically, which causes problems when you leave an area. It's a similar sort of issue to the fact that you can't add new NPCs to PST, only replace current ones.

Yeah, I meant Icewind Gate, but since that is in the other direction, it could be OK. Did you mean you were converting a non-NPC allowable version (BG2) to an NPC allowable version (IWD2) was difficult, instead of vice versa? If so, can you not just Kill(Players)?

No, I meant going from NPC allowable (BG2) to a non-NPC allowable (IWD2) version was an issue, because BG2 has NPCs. Thus if you put them in an engine that doesn't allow NPCs, stuff goes horribly wrong. I believe the current farce you had to go through in order to have NPCs in Icewind Gate was let the character join, Export them and then Import them. That's ridiculous and it's one of the main reasons the project died.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 26 April 2006 - 05:19 AM.

[Vlad]

...to make a series of NPCs to make IWD less hack'n'slashish.

Well, this is exactly what NeJ2 stands for. So I really do not see any difference. Please enlighten me.

Of course, it's really up to you and up to everyone who wants to convert IWD to BG2 engine and then fill it with NPCs. Have fun and enjoy everything what you like, but please bear in mind that such a project already exists. I would understand making more NPCs for NeJ2, combining our efforts in improving the installation of NeJ2 - this is great, and all players and modders would benefit from this, but I really cannot understand why do you want to start a parallel project.

[SimDing0]

Inform me here, and everyone else. How complex must an NPC need to be in IWD to warrant inclusion of BG2:ToB scripting commands? In other words, please give some examples, or a complete analysis, of commands which make BG2:ToB scripting far superior to the IWD:ToTL system that will be of dominant use in the making of NPCs.

The BG2 engine actually supports NPCs. IWD's doesn't. That's quite an advantage for NPC development.

Edited by SimDing0, 26 April 2006 - 05:24 AM.

[Grim Squeaker]

Well, this is exactly what NeJ2 stands for. So I really do not see any difference. Please enlighten me.

Of course, it's really up to you and up to everyone who wants to convert IWD to BG2 engine and then fill it with NPCs. Have fun and enjoy everything what you like, but please bear in mind that such a project already exists. I would understand making more NPCs for NeJ2, combining our efforts in improving the installation of NeJ2 - this is great, and all players and modders would benefit from this, but I really cannot understand why do you want to start a parallel project.

The issue is that what you've done is insert IWD into BG2. You've also added your own content directly into your conversion. The idea of IWDtoBG2 is that it provides a blank modding slate.

Also such a conversion would be on-the-fly converting IWD resources (including any modifications to it) into BG2 resources. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you do is include all the default IWD material packaged with it (which for one thing is illegal) giving that lovely 300+ meg download size.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 26 April 2006 - 05:25 AM.

[Vlad]

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you do is include all the default IWD material packaged with it (which for one thing is illegal) giving that lovely 300+ meg download size.

Not many people have IWD at their disposal. Most of BG gamers do not have or play IWD, and I doubt they would just because you introduce such a wonderful converter. I argued about this three years ago, and Ascension64 just said what I think. If you make people to install IWD then I doubt your converter would be popular. In my opinion the future is for NeJ2 because it combines both games and does not exclude one of them. However, it would be nice to minimize the installation size, at least for those who can install IWD. Unfortunately, I am not a programmer myself, and cannot make such installation like Ascension64 did for BGT-WeiDU (from 650 MB --> 10 MB !). But I'd be really happy if modders could offer their help.

Edited by Vlad, 26 April 2006 - 05:57 AM.

[Grim Squeaker]

If you make people to install IWD then I doubt your converter would be popular

With the invention of EasyTutu installation method, the install of BG1 is only required before the conversion. Then it can be deleted. With this method applied to future conversions, you'd only have to install IWD first then delete it and you'd have your amazing IWD install with a bitching new engine, with no wasted space.

Most of BG gamers do not have or play IWD, and I doubt they would just because you introduce such a wonderful converter.

Actually lots of people do have it but they don't play it because its entirely hack'n'slash. If you said 'the people who gave you Tutu have given you an IWD converter and a new mod that adds half a dozen NPCs with banters, interjections and possibly romances' I'm fairly sure people would play it. And with a clean modding state, you'd get new NPCs soon enough and you'd get people modding the damn game.

...because it combines both games and do not exclude one of them

Again, correct me if I'm wrong but you jump out of the BG2 plot, play the entire of IWD, and then go back to play BG2 and somehow Irenicus hasn't taken over the world while you were off playing a seperate game.

I argued about this three years ago...

Three years is a long time. Perhaps your solutions was the best available with the tools then, but we have so much more available now (WeiMorph and advanced WeiDU techniques).

Lastly, you ignore the legality of what you do.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 26 April 2006 - 06:05 AM.

[grogerson]

This has certainly taken a different turn from what I expected.

I'm just a player, but with BG1Tutu and BGT, both using the resources of an installed game (no legality issues here), the IWD1Tutu over at G3(?), and a desire to see another setting without the Bhaalspawn connection, I was following up on a comment they made about a previous attempt to port IWD1 into BG2.

I'm just now starting to use NI to examine things. I haven't reached a point to try modding yet.

My opinion (read Rant):

IWD was intended to be a separate and distinct setting that Black Isle probably intended to expand upon (see TotLM). Their demise ended this.

The biggest weakness of IWD (and we all seem to be in agreement about this) is the lack of interaction between NPCs, and porting it into an engine that allows easier modding would certainly be a shot in the arm for it (I believe that's one reason so little modding has been done for it).

The potential for:
1) joinable NPCs,
2) a non-Bhaalspawn story in
3) an independent setting,
4) addable quests and
5) romances
are the reasons I asked the question. Give it a chance to become a proper RPG, not just another cRPG or another dependent child of BGT.
(end Rant)

And Grim has a very valid point on an oft-overlooked issue...

[Delight]

I would love to play\mod a pure ID1ToBG2 conversion.

[Vlad]

Again, correct me if I'm wrong but you jump out of the BG2 plot, play the entire of IWD, and then go back to play BG2...

Yes. I correct you. NeJ2 has its own storyline loosely connected to IWD or BG2. You just jump back and forth in time. You visit various locations including those which are outside BG and IWD.

...and somehow Irenicus hasn't taken over the world while you were off playing a seperate game.

Well, you know, travelling in time is very tricky. If you are lucky you can return back to your future even earlier than you left it and meet a copy of yourself.

[Grim Squeaker]

Vlad: So in conclusion, it is in fact nothing like being able to play vanilla IWD with NPCs?

grogerson:

The biggest weakness of IWD (and we all seem to be in agreement about this) is the lack of interaction between NPCs, and porting it into an engine that allows easier modding would certainly be a shot in the arm for it (I believe that's one reason so little modding has been done for it).

Exactly. The IWD game put you in the situation of designing your own party from just the basic classes, and because they are player designed none of them have personalities and don't talk at all.

However, with IWDtoBG2 not only would you be able to have interesting NPCs join you with banter and such but should you want to design your own characters you could have kits (a smaller issue that I'd forgotten to mention earlier) and monks etc. While IWD2 was 3E and had feats, subraces and all that to flesh out your silent NPCs, IWD was stuck with 'errr... generic fighter x2, boring paladin, cleric with no distinct god, ooo... multiclass fighter/thief and token mage'.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 26 April 2006 - 07:02 AM.

[grogerson]

Thanks, Grim. I'd forgotten about the kits issue, though it's been on my mind as well. I'm sure there'd be someone who'd also bring in teifling and aasmir(?) races in a mod as well...

Overall, the idea of IWD to BG2 is also promising in that it would be very personalizable by modding...from zero to hero all over again!

[Ascension64]

I have another wonky question: why mod IWD to make it less hack-n-slashy by adding NPCs? There are plenty of BG2/BG1 opportunities to make a decent NPC (if it hasn't been done to death yet, and besides, doing it to IWD really makes no difference). Barring issues of legality, one could simply import an area (or more) to recreate the atmospheric effect desired for the NPC interaction and build around that kind of base. More importantly, it seems very unrewarding to play IWD all over again, just to hack-n-slash, then meet an NPC or two or three. It makes much more sense to simplify include the NPC(s) into an existing platform. It is possible, I suppose, to completely overhaul the IWD to produce a general de-hack-n-slashifying of the game, but that runs into problems too.

By making IWDTutu and de-hack-n-slashifying it is a massive change to the way the entire game works that is far too much work because you first have to convert the resources, and then you have to build almost a PC over it in order to provide an ostensibly 'proper emphasis' to the game. One major disadvantage of IWDTutu is the fact that a vanilla version really adds nothing to the game, if not destroy the balance by introducing kits (if you let the player choose one that is). I would like to know how heavily would IWDTutu be modded, how long such a thing would last, and how long it would take to provide a decent replay through IWD to warrant such a great deal of work. Unfortunately, I am led to believe that if someone wanted to play IWD standalone, they would play IWD and not IWDTutu.

However, me is just me, and so I repeat Vlad's words in that if it goes ahead, have fun.

@grogerson: before this thread blew to bits, what were your original thoughts on wanting IWD1 to BG2?

No, I meant going from NPC allowable (BG2) to a non-NPC allowable (IWD2) version was an issue, because BG2 has NPCs. Thus if you put them in an engine that doesn't allow NPCs, stuff goes horribly wrong. I believe the current farce you had to go through in order to have NPCs in Icewind Gate was let the character join, Export them and then Import them. That's ridiculous and it's one of the main reasons the project died.

Late error on my behalf. Apologies.

[Grim Squeaker]

Well, BG2 is getting packed with NPCs and we're ending up with so many things to choose from (with some veyr odd NPCs out there), but its all the same interjections, the same quests. Eventually, no matter how many new NPCs you add you just can't bear to play the quests any more. However, as it's been said not many people played IWD (mainly because of the lack of NPCs). New NPCs will bring some more interest into the game (and hopefully spark people modding it).

The point is that ideally IWDtoBG2 would be released at the same time as the NPC pack. We don't expect an enormous amount of people just to sit down and play through vanilla IWDtoBG2 as there isn't that much added (other than kits, which is actually quite a big plus, so maybe people will). But if you say 'here is the converter so you can play with all these NPCs and make that hack'n'slash game much more interesting' I think people will play it.

As for the work involving, actually it won't be too bad. There are some odd scripting commands in IWD that have to be converted but a lot of it doesn't require quite as much special attention as BG1tutu because many of the file formats are the same.

[grogerson]

I guess the primary reason I started this thread was simple curiosity. The IWD1 TUTU attempt now going on at G3 mentioned another earlier attempt to port IWD to BG2. I simply wanted to know what happened to it. Thanks to Grim Squeaker, SimDingO and pushmonkey I got my answers.

What suprised me was that this thread suddenly became active again after nearly two months. I don't mind. It's brought some thoughts and opinions out into the open. Vlad's put a lot of time and effort into NeJ, and he rightly defends it, but that isn't the way I want to play IWD. And it looks like I'm not the only one...

No doubt IWD would still be hack-&-slash (that is the unfortunate part of the "plot"), but it's too generic as is. And there are precious few mods for it due to engine limitations. Black Isle could have done better.

Non-hack-&-slash quests, NPCs, romances and the ability to kit the classes would all be nice additions to IWD, and such mods would certainly give it more depth. But I'm also becoming more and more aware that the BG games are being "done to death" with mods of one sort or another. A "customizable" story without Bhaalspawn ties playable from first level has begun to grow more appealing - a nice break from the work you've done (and I hope I've helped with). IWD is also a complete story (though in an IE variant), not an incomplete and still evolving work like DLTC, Classic Adventures or other total conversions.

Such a conversion would certainly be more difficult than yours. Sim even mentions several problems he ran into before japheth "went MIA", but that a foundation had been laid.

Hope dies hard. Here's hoping.

Edit: Thanks, Grim. I spent too much time thinking through my response to Ascension...

Edited by grogerson, 27 April 2006 - 07:04 AM.

[Andyr]

Not many people have IWD at their disposal. Most of BG gamers do not have or play IWD, and I doubt they would just because you introduce such a wonderful converter.

So if you believe this, then NeJ is essentially allowing people to pirate IWD1?

[Vlad]

So if you believe this, then NeJ is essentially allowing people to pirate IWD1?

I have deja-vue.

Edited by Vlad, 29 April 2006 - 01:22 AM.

[Avenger_teambg]

Not many people have IWD at their disposal. Most of BG gamers do not have or play IWD, and I doubt they would just because you introduce such a wonderful converter.

So if you believe this, then NeJ is essentially allowing people to pirate IWD1?

Even if it is so, how does this concern you
Though i agree, the moving of the majority of the content of IWD1 to BG2 without owning IWD1 is pirating, i don't see why does this concern you. BlackIsle is dead, so this won't cause them any damage.

[CamDawg]

Not many people have IWD at their disposal. Most of BG gamers do not have or play IWD, and I doubt they would just because you introduce such a wonderful converter.

So if you believe this, then NeJ is essentially allowing people to pirate IWD1?

Even if it is so, how does this concern you
Though i agree, the moving of the majority of the content of IWD1 to BG2 without owning IWD1 is pirating, i don't see why does this concern you. BlackIsle is dead, so this won't cause them any damage.

Now, some of you may need to sit down. The following statement may shock and amaze you.

Some people--I know, it's hard to believe--actually want to do the right thing, even if there's no consequence to doing the wrong thing.

It's madness. Madness, I say!

[Delight]

ID1 is still in sale and it's not an abandonware, so it's still a piracy.

[the bigg]

it's not an abandonware, so it's still a piracy.

Define abandonware. FYI, copyright in the US expires after *90* years, so if a game is 20 years old and the makers didn't allow people to distribute it, it's still copyright infringment.

Of course, a totally different debate would be how much is the current form of copyright correct.