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#21 Kulyok

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 05:24 AM

As long as you have a player-initiated option "Let's stay friends/Please, let us not progress any further", available at any given time(or romance breaking upon excluding him from the party, or any other opportunity to kill the romance), then, yes, rude replies are not necessary in the latter part of the romance, in my opinion. You may want to include "This is not the right time for us to talk" ones from time to time, however.

#22 Tempest

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:14 AM

Well, you can brush off a few of Darian's early lovetalks without killing the relationship (he can certainly understand if Charname doesn't want to talk to him), but I think I will take Ilmatar's suggestion. Darian will leave the party for good if he's ever kicked out (he returns home to Myrrhavin, no longer having any reason to stay in Amn) or if Charname blows things in a rather spectacular fashion during a specific point in the romance (and honestly, if you choose that option during that particular lovetalk, you deserve what you get). I'm also going to have to rewrite the "decision point" between Anomen and Darian, so you can romance Anomen, but still be friends (but nothing more) with Darian. Finally, once the final arc of the romance starts, I am going to include options so that you can either keep it at a "just friends" level, or burn the relationship completely-up until that point, you might easily think you're going through an elaborate friendship track.

Just an aside: writing the Darian-Charname romance has easily been the most difficult part of the mod thus far. I have no problems envisioning what Darian says, thinks, and feels, but writing Charname's responses is rather awkward. :)

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#23 Kulyok

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:31 AM

Just an aside: writing the Darian-Charname romance has easily been the most difficult part of the mod thus far. I have no problems envisioning what Darian says, thinks, and feels, but writing Charname's responses is rather awkward. :)


Yes, it is difficult sometimes, isn't it? :)


My point about a player-initiated option is that, well, as Ilf and Petrov wrote in their golden Ostap Bender series, a girl senses a proposal well before it is coming. The same thing about a confession, or feelings - not for every female PC, of course, but for some of them. So, a PC sees Anomen/Darian/Kelsey/Xan likes her, and in already existing romances she is able to say "Well, you may think it is an elaborate friendship track, but I see through you, and I really don't want to think I have led you on, so, just in case: I love Jan, so." (Well, almost. :) ) - so that the final arc of the romance *doesn't* start. I think introducing a "let him down easy at any given point early in romance without leaving the party" is a good idea. But, of course, it is up to you.

#24 berelinde

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:51 AM

Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm in 100% agreement with Ilmatar and Kulyok. It happens, sometimes.

I wouldn't necessarily discount harsh replies based on alignment. There is this idea that good is the same as nice, but that isn't necessarily true.

Sure, Darian won't be interested in evil PCs, but that doesn't mean that either of them will say the right thing all the time. Darian might say something harsh, or even insulting to the PC, or she might say something offensive to Darian. Sometimes, it's a deal-breaker. Sometimes it isn't.

Only paladins fall from grace after a single bad decision. For many characters, alignment is an average, not an absolute value. They are the sum of their decisions, not only the worst of them.

Given that Darian is skittish about falling for the PC, he might well break things off after only one misstep. That is based on sound role-playing. But I'd give the player a chance to role-play, too, and go ahead and throw a decidedly not-good response in there every once in a while, even late in the relationship. I dislike reading a menu of choices and finding that there is really no choice at all.

Oh, and about that last one, I'm as guilty of that as anyone else. Sometimes, it takes another pair of eyes to spot it.

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#25 Tempest

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 07:02 AM

My point about a player-initiated option is that, well, as Ilf and Petrov wrote in their golden Ostap Bender series, a girl senses a proposal well before it is coming. The same thing about a confession, or feelings - not for every female PC, of course, but for some of them. So, a PC sees Anomen/Darian/Kelsey/Xan likes her, and in already existing romances she is able to say "Well, you may think it is an elaborate friendship track, but I see through you, and I really don't want to think I have led you on, so, just in case: I love Jan, so." (Well, almost. ) - so that the final arc of the romance *doesn't* start. I think introducing a "let him down easy at any given point early in romance without leaving the party" is a good idea. But, of course, it is up to you.

Eh, you have a good point. I was planning on Darian terminating the relationship if Charname hit RomanceActive = 2 with any other characters anyhow (he's certainly perceptive enough to tell if Charname's in love with someone else), but your point rings true nevertheless. Especially since I'll be getting back to finishing writing the romance sometime in the next few days, once I finish coding all of Darian's banters.

Darian might say something harsh, or even insulting to the PC, or she might say something offensive to Darian

Oh, believe me, this *will* happen...

Given that Darian is skittish about falling for the PC, he might well break things off after only one misstep.

Actually, I take precisely the opposite tack on Darian's response-Darian's a fairly tolerant person, once you get past his xenophobic tendency. Darian himself would never admit this (well, maybe if Charname asked in ToB), but his thought processes are really something along the lines of "Aerdrie Faeyna help me! Even though this woman seems hellbent on driving me insane, and even though she's a <race> of all things, I think I'm falling in love with her!". Trust me, it's impossible *not* to make missteps in the romance with Darian-there are times when there is no right step to make. And that's about all I'll say about this issue-for more information, you'll have to wait until I call for beta testers. :)

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#26 Tempest

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 02:13 PM

Update for today's progress: finished coding all the banters save Aerie's, which will be tomorrow's project, given all the dialogue the silly girl has (not just the half dozen "normal" banters, but also the ones that occur if the main character's in love with Aerie/Jaheira/Viconia/Anomen/Darian, as appropriate, and the ones that occur if Darian's in love with, well, you know I'm not going to say :)).

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#27 Tempest

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:40 AM

I've added a few area-specific banters to Darian, including a couple of Underdark-only ones. Also, at some point, you will want to rest in a forest area with Darian and Imoen in the party-Imoen is liable to suffer relapse from her generally darker nature, and incur a major attack of the sillies. ^_^

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#28 Neferit

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:04 AM

Woo, I would give many things to make such quick progress like you! :)

Actually, I take precisely the opposite tack on Darian's response-Darian's a fairly tolerant person, once you get past his xenophobic tendency. Darian himself would never admit this (well, maybe if Charname asked in ToB), but his thought processes are really something along the lines of "Aerdrie Faeyna help me! Even though this woman seems hellbent on driving me insane, and even though she's a <race> of all things, I think I'm falling in love with her!". Trust me, it's impossible *not* to make missteps in the romance with Darian-there are times when there is no right step to make.


So no "you have to chose the options 1,1,1,1,3 for continueing the romance" ? :) Wonderful! (heh, that reminds me how I was trying to play through Viconia's romance - tutorial with the correct answers opened the whole time - it was really crazy :lol: )

And that's about all I'll say about this issue-for more information, you'll have to wait until I call for beta testers.


Meh, and now I will be the whole time - strung like braces (that's verbatim translation from Czech ;) ) :lol: shame on you! :P

Edited by Neferit, 04 April 2007 - 11:06 AM.

Heck no, b - I used the word the way I use things like "twitter", and "iPod" - my first inclination is to ask "what birdcall are you studying?" and I think of "I pod, You (singular) pod, He pods, She pods, They pod, You (plural) pod, We pod..."

 

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#29 Kellen

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:42 AM

And that's about all I'll say about this issue-for more information, you'll have to wait until I call for beta testers.

Or proofreaders...
"She could resist temptation. Really she could. Sometimes. At least when it wasn't tempting." - Calli Slythistle
"She was a fire, and I had no doubt that she had already done her share of burning." - Lord Firael Algathrin
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#30 Tempest

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 01:36 PM

So no "you have to chose the options 1,1,1,1,3 for continuing the romance" ? Wonderful! (heh, that reminds me how I was trying to play through Viconia's romance - tutorial with the correct answers opened the whole time - it was really crazy )

Correct. That sort of thing really annoyed me as well, and Darian's lovetalks really aren't all that complex-even though Darian starts the lovetalks, there's no question at all as to who's the active driving force in the relationship. Unlike, say, Aerie, Darian really isn't looking for any particular response from Charname-he speaks his mind (or what's on his mind that he's willing to tell you, at any rate), and it's up to Charname how to respond. She can take him very seriously and treat it as a deep, serious relationship, be just as wary of Darian as he is of her, or be light-hearted and flirtatious-as long as Charname isn't overtly rude and is willing to listen when he has something important to him that he wants to talk about (though you can brush off a few of his lovetalks without killing the relationship), Darian will generally be very tolerant of Charname.

Meh, and now I will be the whole time - strung like braces (that's verbatim translation from Czech ) shame on you!

Oh, it's quite deliberate, I'm afraid. I've dropped all those tantalyzing hints and foreshadowings on purpose-and yes, that certain special split in the relationship in ToB is still planned, and I've done my homework on npc's, Bioware and mod alike-none of them have ever done quite what I have in mind. If you send me a PM, I'll tell you what I have planned, since it *is* rather unconventional, but it will be completely up to the player's discretion whether it will happen or not (it will be a very obvious split in Charname's possible replies during one of the first ToB lovetalks), and it will definitely have an impact on the relationship (and a number of other things) from there on out. More than that, either send me a PM, or deal with it. :)

Oh, and I probably will make an announcement about this split in ToB when the time comes to start work on Darian's ToB content, but for now, I'm not ready to make a public announcement about it, so please bear with me.

As for now, though, I'm getting back to coding all of Aerie's dialogues and doing some proofreading.

Edited by Tempest, 04 April 2007 - 02:47 PM.

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#31 Tempest

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 05:08 PM

Update: All of Darian's banters are finished (though I may add more later). Next step will be proofreading, then back to writing the romance. :)

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#32 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:45 PM

I think it's important to give room for serious roleplaying, so you need to think of abusive, sadistic and selfish characters as well and what they might say. Of course the fact that Darian won't join the party if PC is evil sort of rules out the extremely mean responses.

It really depends on what you view as sadistic or extremely mean. Like say by opening ones heart and not getting the right response from a npc, yet not willing to admit his feelings, and thus responding with an act of pure hatred. From a rigor of compassion, to a trigger of aggression, she was flipped. She was Chaotic Neutral. :devil:

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#33 Tempest

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 01:52 PM

Not much time to work today, but here's an update for what I did do: I've finally worked out all of Darian's RomanceActive variables to deal with all the attendant complications of the possibility of his romance with another character, for which I'll be putting in time delays similar to lovetalks or Yasraena's banters with the main character:

RomanceActive = 1: You're still in the first stage of the romance. Darian's other romance will not occur.
RomanceActive = 2: You're in the final arc of the romance. Congratulations.
RomanceActive = 3: You've destroyed the relationship with Darian. He may pursue a certain other character if she is in the party.
RomanceActive = 4: You're in the second stage of the romance-you're friends, and things may progress further (i.e. leave for Spellhold and start the final arc). Darian's other romance will not occur.
RomanceActive = 5: You're friends with Darian, but things won't go any farther, either because you're romancing Anomen, you politely let Darian down in the final arc of the relationship, or you told him ahead of time that you value him as a friend, but nothing more. Darian's other romance will occur if the other character in question is in the party.

Also, in ToB, it doesn't matter if you were at RA 1, RA 3, RA 4, or RA 5: Darian's let down his guard (for the most part) by ToB regardless. There probably won't be a real friendship track of banters in ToB, either-you've earned his trust and respect already. There also won't be much in the way of differences between human and elven romances for the ToB content, either, save that they will have very different endings (and I've actually already written two of Darian's four, maybe five potential epilogues :))-the big difference between the two ToB romance tracks has to do with the decision I keep making hints at.

Other than determining how all that works out, I've also rewritten the final Anomen conflict so that you can pursue the romance with Anomen, but remain friends with Darian.

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#34 Kitana

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:47 PM

Just a question... What happens if a good or neutral PC turns evil during the Hell trials? Will he leave or stay?

#35 Tempest

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 04:03 PM

Actually hadn't thought about this possibility, but I guess he'll stay with you in Hell (since where else is he going to go), but he'll probably leave immediately in ToB (since the idea would be he's seen the depths of your soul, saw you turn evil, and would hence leave immediately after you return to life).

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#36 berelinde

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 04:24 PM

Have him leave in Suldanessallar, then. He won't be able to leave in ToB. Once he arrives, he'll be stuck in Saradush, just like everyone else.

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#37 Kaeloree

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 05:57 PM

If you do do that - perhaps you can't make him summonable by the Fate Spirit, but have the 'Bring me Darian, the Avariel Archer' (otherwise it might seem odd), but make the Fate Spirit say something to the effect of: 'The one you are searching for resists, and cannot be brought to this place' or something. :)

And he probably could leave Saradush - keep in mind he IS an avariel, though he masks it while he travels with the PC :) An invisibility potion would work just fine to get him out of there.


I'm interested to see how it would be handled :D

#38 Tempest

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 06:17 PM

I'm not sure how I'd do that, seeing as how everything after Hell is a cutscene, but I'll cross that bridge once I finish writing Darian's romances (the one with Charname, and the npc-npc one). In addition, I've come to another decision concerning Darian and Aerie: even though their final dialogue in SoA is liable to go badly, I don't think it will warrant multiple banter tracks for them come ToB. Given the change in Aerie's nature in ToB, Darian will be much friendlier to her, but I will not go ahead with the possibility of an Aerie-Darian romance (Darian's got enough romance already, I think-Charname and a certain other npc are both possible) or a new ending-things for Aerie will go as they always have.

The Fate Spirit's response would probably be something along the lines of "The one you seek is beyond my sight-he walks a seperate path". Remember that unless you have Darian with you for the end of SoA, he has absolutely no reason to come to Tethyr to help you again-I never intended Darian to be summonable in ToB.

Also, when I finish writing the Darian-Charname romance, I am going to ask for volunteers to proofread and generally look over the romance-I hate to spoil things, but I definitely will want some feedback before I settle on a final version.

And, time for a preview of one of Darian's romance-related banters: you wouldn't expect Charname's sister to not have something to say, would you?

(This occurs if RomanceActive is 2, and thus in the final arc of the romance)

Imoen: Hmmm... my sister's taste in men has certainly taken a turn for the unusual. Not that I object in this case.

Darian: I don't suppose it would do me any good to deny your implications.

Imoen: Nope. What kinda sis would I be if I wasn't constantly snooping on her boyfriend?

Darian: That's hardly the word I would use to describe my relationship with <CHARNAME>

Imoen: But it's the word I'd use. (Grins)

Darian: Oh, by the light of Aerdrie Faeyna... you're almost as bad as <CHARNAME>...

Imoen: Why, thank you! Some things run in the family, I guess.

Darian: Indeed, such as a propensity for driving people insane...

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#39 Kellen

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 06:50 PM

:D :lol:
That's my girl.
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#40 Kulyok

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:49 PM

RomanceActive = 4: You're in the second stage of the romance-you're friends, and things may progress further (i.e. leave for Spellhold and start the final arc). Darian's other romance will not occur.
RomanceActive = 5: You're friends with Darian, but things won't go any farther, either because you're romancing Anomen, you politely let Darian down in the final arc of the relationship, or you told him ahead of time that you value him as a friend, but nothing more. Darian's other romance will occur if the other character in question is in the party.


Technically, it may cause difficulties with Crossmod Banter Pack, if you will wish to participate in the future: upon some other romance going to 2, it automatically sets Darian's to a variable of your choice. (So, if you will always want the RomanceActive go to 5 if, say, Kelsey's has gone to 2, no problem, but otherwise there might be trouble).

The Fate Spirit's response would probably be something along the lines of "The one you seek is beyond my sight-he walks a seperate path". Remember that unless you have Darian with you for the end of SoA, he has absolutely no reason to come to Tethyr to help you again-I never intended Darian to be summonable in ToB.


This sounds very sensible. I think there might be an alternative, though: for example, the Flirt Pack allows to summon "My lover, Jaheira", letting the player think that they were lovers/friends, but the player decided to go to the talking Heads alone, leaving his beloved/friends in Suldanesselar. So, if the player starts a ToB game, he may not summon "Just Darian", but he may summon "My lover, Darian", or "My friend, Darian", no?

Actually hadn't thought about this possibility, but I guess he'll stay with you in Hell (since where else is he going to go), but he'll probably leave immediately in ToB (since the idea would be he's seen the depths of your soul, saw you turn evil, and would hence leave immediately after you return to life).


I think it may sound more plausible if Darian will say he saw PC's deeds(sacrificing a companion, turning into a Slayer, accepting a cloak stitched from the skins of innocent creatures), and as such, he cannot stay.

Because in another NPC-related mod, Beyond The Law, it looked very odd to me, when the characters said something about PC turning evil: it broke the immersion for me, really. It is a roleplaying game, so I thought they'd look at my character's deeds at least, not her character sheet. But perhaps it was only my impression.