20 replies to this topic

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Okay, I've got a party who is going to presently be fighting a goddess trapped in human form with weapons made especially to help kill her. However, I need enough time to try and convince them not to kill her, but I still need her death to be possible. Any idea on how to do stats for her character? She's supposed to be Aphrodite, but was trapped by a demon, who is now masquerading as the goddess and claiming that the goddess is actually the demon. I swear, it does make sense.

Yeah, in any case, I have no idea what to do for her Stats, and whether or not she has a class or anything. I know there are certain manuals with rules for Gods, I just don't have any of them (actually, I should go double check my Book of Exalted Deeds, but I don't think it will quite have this situation outlined). So, any ideas?

[Tempest]

Yes, avatars of gods have class(es). Off the top of my head, I think most are 40th-level characters, minimum, with a host of special abilities that are ludicrously powerful. Here is a site with all the 3.5e rules-you'll want the divine rules, which cover avatars and whatnot. For 2E, you might want to look at the stats and abilities of the avatars of Sune and Hanali Celanil for inspiration. However, be warned-avatars are extremely powerful-along the lines of Charname and his/her buddies in ToB, with some very nasty side effects. For example, male beings cannot harm an avatar of Sune. Period.

[Daulmakan]

Here are Aphrodite's avatar stats for 2E, they might give you an idea of what to outline for her:

Aphrodite?s Avatar (wizard 15, bard 10)

Aphrodite?s avatar is a scantily clad woman of incredible beauty. She can call upon the illusion and enchantment/charm schools for her magic.

Str 15 Dex 18 Con 18
Int 18 Wis 18 Cha 20
MV 15 SZ 5? MR 30%
AC 0 HD 15 HP 120
#AT 1 THAC0 5 Dmg 1d4 + (dagger)

Special Att/Def: Aphrodite?s avatar carries a dagger that causes anyone struck by it to save versus spells or be instantly charmed. In addition, upon first seeing the avatar, all men must save versus paralyzation or find themselves unable to attack her ? ever. Finally, Aphrodite?s avatar can cause 1d10 points of damage (and a great deal of physical pain) to anybody trying to harm her simply by waving her hand.

[vilkacis]

Huh. The permanent effect aside... that's really kind of weak.

Sune, on the other hand, is completely hax. Ugh!

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Thank you! I just need to figure out a way to get this to suit a 10th level party...oh well, I got myself into this situation in the first place, so I'll figure it out. I think I can just tweak those avatar of Aphrodite stats a bit...hmm, I'll figure it out. But thank you all, and if you get any more ideas, please post them!

[Solstice]

Huh. The permanent effect aside... that's really kind of weak.

Sune, on the other hand, is completely hax. Ugh!

Well, Sune *is* a greater power on the deity charts... though an all-female BG2 party might be ready to take her down a peg by ToB...

But I agree that the Aphrodite avatar looks very weak, aside from that permanent debuff.


Maybe try taking a base of a nymph, adding on character levels (bard would seem most appropriate), enhancing all of her attributes, and giving her additional bonuses with charm effects?

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Maybe try taking a base of a nymph, adding on character levels (bard would seem most appropriate), enhancing all of her attributes, and giving her additional bonuses with charm effects?

That actually could work very well, since it would be easier to tailor to my party. I may do the same thing for the demon, except with a succubus base....

By the way, if I disappear of the face of this forum, my party has probably killed me for tricking them into working for a demon.

[Daulmakan]

Huh. The permanent effect aside... that's really kind of weak.
Sune, on the other hand, is completely hax. Ugh!

Well, Aphrodite is really not a goddess of combat in any way. And neither is she that powerful in magic capability terms. Those stats bear in mind a greek mythology setting, and I think they reflect well her traits and personality. Thing is, neither of these things is very compatible with the usual mid to high level trained-to-kill party, nor with the equivalent power of the gods of the AD&D pantheon with the same portfolio, such as Sune. Unlike her, for instance, Aphrodite is an intermediate goddess.

Anyway, she's not fighting Sune, but a level 10 party. For example, using those very stats, if the males fail their saves, that's a tough punch there (you can even impose a saving throw penalty, per the rule of mage level in the high levels campaign). The wave of hand power can also be potentially very powerful, depending on how you understand it to work. What if it can be employed each round? Or given that is is merely a wave of hand, you could asume it acts first initiative wise, or that the pain persists for a few rounds (so in other words = party spell interrupted).

The nymph idea could also work well.

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Ack, now you've got me wondering who would win if the greek pantheon got into a massive cage match...

[Daulmakan]

Ack, now you've got me wondering who would win if the greek pantheon got into a massive cage match...

Zeus.

Poseidon or Hades go in 2nd or 3rd place.

After that, it's a toss. I would bet either one of Hera, Athena, or Hephaestus.

This is the gods pantheon only. Including the titans and the other monsters and entities the results may vary.

[cmorgan]

Agreed. Using the classics, rather than the modern interpretations, Hera would be reduced to twisting things instead of a direct match, and no one could touch Zeus. Take him out of the picture, and you have a different story - hard to say unless you postulate alliances. An alliance/tag team amongst the warrior gods and goddesses would be a powerul team...

I think Aphrodite's stats are immaterial. I would consider removing the "combat" equation and adding the powers of her portfolio to the character - all combat based on will checks and saves.

I can see the following "attacks" that are portfolio related - adjusted from the above description -

Aura of Aphrodite - Permanent Dire Charm on all male PCs within visual range. PCs will protect her avatar with their lives. Successful save (at -5) results in 1d4 rounds of "stun" for the male PC in question. Effects linger until the Goddess removeds them - successful destruction of her Avatar is unlikely to win that boon from her. Aftermath problem for roleplaying - what does the converted Aphrodite worshiper do to the people who banishe his God?
(potential extension - why just males? Perhaps there is a similar jealousy aura.)

Invocation of Lust - Attack, Once per round, male or female, target must make Will save or be distracted by powerful lustful thoughts; concentration checks at -4, no dexterity bonus to AC, character is assumed to be "flat footed"

If you have to have stats,
BardSong abilities as Bard 20. dexterity of at least 20, strength very high, constitution very high,

Edited by cmorgan, 24 June 2007 - 07:35 AM.

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Ack...I just realized a rather strange problem with this. 2/3 of the male characters in my party are possessed by the demon trying to kill Aphrodite...So can she charm them, or would it be some kind of oppossed check between the strength of her charm and the demons will save?

[vilkacis]

Ack...I just realized a rather strange problem with this. 2/3 of the male characters in my party are possessed by the demon trying to kill Aphrodite...So can she charm them, or would it be some kind of oppossed check between the strength of her charm and the demons will save?

I don't think I have ever seen any specific rules for "fighting a god while possessed by a demon", but I think it would depend on the nature of the possession, and of the demon.

If the demon is fully in control of the body, I'd just use the demon's regular stats (if it's immune to such effects, she can't charm it; if it's not, use the demon's normal will save).

On the other hand, if the characters are still "themselves" and just carry part of the demon's spirit inside them, you could use the highest save, or the average of the two, or just rule that the demon's presence grants a "plus X" bonus on the save. And again, if the demon is immune to charm, you could still rule that the immunity extends to the character as well.

...or, if the character is fighting the demon's influence, it might even take a penalty.

[Azkyroth]

If you have to have stats,
BardSong abilities as Bard 20. dexterity of at least 20, strength very high, constitution very high,

I would expect 25 CHA, given her portfolio of love and beauty, implicitly including a very high capacity for mental manipulation (maybe a serious save penalty to charm-type or illusion spells her avatar casts?). DEX and CON nearly that (she's effectively the goddess of sexual desire, and hence sex, euphemistically translated as "love", as I understand it).

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Ack...no not really, I just keep starting things with ack.

What it is with the demon is that she doesn't have permanent control, but one character is cursed to have to do what she orders 3x per day (long story) and the other character....well, she just floats around in his head, but can force him to take opposed will saves to try and gain control.

[vilkacis]

What it is with the demon is that she doesn't have permanent control, but one character is cursed to have to do what she orders 3x per day (long story) and the other character....well, she just floats around in his head, but can force him to take opposed will saves to try and gain control.

In that case, I'd have the first character save VS charm as usual, but also let the demon's "3x per day" control override the charm effect. For the second character... well, maybe give him a slight (say, +2) bonus to his save to resist control if he's charmed? (But if the demon takes control, that still overrides the charm effect.)

"Control" is a stronger effect than "charm", generally speaking.

[cmorgan]

To tell the truth, you have a tough situation here - if you are really into sticking by the rules while still giving a balanced encounter for L10 characters. You might try getting feedback from Tempest, as he has indicated one of his long-term PnP campaigns is epic-level, with gods, goddesses, interplanar travel, etc. You might also try a "plot device" - an anti-celestial field that cuts off some or all demonic posession or celestial abilities, etc. - the 3.5DMG is not really going to be easy to use to come up with something you are happy with.

If I were the Incarnation of the Goddess of Love (ok, putting aside the silliness of that statement) I would have brother and sister gods to call on for help, and powerful solars and planetars to aid me, and a whole ton of delicious Kevin Sorbo (Hercules) types to cater to me and rub my feet, and perhaps I would also have experience with my trickster cousin, so be prepared to deal with possessions - after all, as Goddess of Love, I often posess others to encourage (erm..) action, and assume other forms for the same purpose...

[Bluenose]

Given the power level of an avatar you almost have to have an exceptionally powerful demon - probably on of the demon lords/ladies (Malcanthet, Queen fo the Succubi, perhaps) - to be anything more than a smear on the floor. Since watching powerful NPCs fighting is about as interesting for players as watching paint dry, you probably need to scale back the power levels.

My suggestion would be to use an Aspect, rather than an avatar. The abilities would be similar but much less powerful, so there's less chance that your players will suddenly find themselves facing a save-or-die situation when anything lower than a 20 is a die. I'd try something like a human, with the half-celestial template, and 12-15 levels of Bard or Sorcerer.

The best bet for a demon might be a succubus, with class levels as a bard. Alternatively there was a recent issue of Dragon magazine which gave information on a more advanced form of succubus, so that might be suitable too. Possession, or at least mind control, is a somewhat rare ability in demons but it is something a succubus might be good at.

[vilkacis]

Eh. This particular avatar is only a Wiz15/Bard10 with (comparatively) minor special abilities, I really don't think it looks that bad for several 10th-level PCs and a demon. Heck, I don't think a top-tier "standard" fiendish or celestial creature (like, solar or balor-level) would have much trouble taking it out, one on one.

Sune's avatar would splatter them, though. (Hax! Hax, I say!)


[Edit: wiz 15, bard 10, not the other way around. D'oh.]

Edited by vilkacis, 25 June 2007 - 05:31 AM.

[Tempest]

Better than the ultimate confrontation I have planned for my friends' main party... taking on Shar herself in the Negative Energy Plane, with her at well over her normal limits of power-she's imprisoned and siphoning off the power of Lathander and Mystra, effectively wielding not only her own power, but also the power of two other greater deities, and my friends are going to have to fight her on her home plane (our campaign world is only based on the Forgotten Realms), but from the sounds of it, Zora's situation is nowhere near that kind of confrontation.

Sorry for rambling. I would certainly give Aphrodite a retinue of forces in her own right, such as permanently dire charmed males with fanatical morale and imperviousness to hostile charm effects. I'd also give her the power to cast dire charm at will, as well as eagle's splendor, charm person, and maybe some other enchantment spells, with a forced -2 or more to to her target's saves. A nasty trick I've employed in the past that might work well for you: when Aphrodite casts a spell against someone, regardless of whether the target makes their save or not, they enter a state of rapture. This completely masks their hitpoints-as the DM, you make a note of their current hitpoints, and subtract from that as normal whenever they take damage, but you hide their hit points from the player. The character feels absolutely no pain and no awareness of the danger-they keep going in a state of bliss until they abruptly fall over dead, bleeding from myriad wounds they never felt.