82 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Here's one I'm thinking of doing. There is an existing Vhailor banter that goes like this:

Vhailor: *I must ASK again: have we met BEFORE, Nameless One?*
Morte: "Trust me, you've never met him."
Vhailor: "*YOU do not engender TRUST in me, SKULL.*


The banter ends there, but note that Morte's line has filename MRT475AA. The very next line in the list, with the same base number, is:

MRT475CA: "Chief, we really oughtta ditch this guy before he remembers something the last you did." -> Unused


I'm thinking it should potentially be added as a 4th line to that banter? I dunno, maybe they left it out cause it implies that Morte is whispering at that point, and no other banters really do that. Whatcha all think?

Qwinn

[Philiposophy]

Here are some suggestions. Bear in mind that I don't know what the limitations are and whether what I'm suggesting is feasible, so yeah.


NOR158 : "Shadows in vicinity have achieved mass and threatening trajectory." -> Unused
When the party gets randomly attacked by Shadows at night, Nordom could say this when they're first detected.

# ANA179A: "We shouldn't be here... the Lady'll put us in the dead book for sure!" -> Unused
Ravel's Maze? Fell's Tattoo Parlour?

# ANA201A: "I donnae think we'll be leavin' this place." -> Unused
She could say this in the dungeon type areas. Perhaps the prison in Curst?

# ANA319C: "Don't like the armor, he's nuts." -> Unused, possible restoration by adding to CRE file.
I know that you can ask Grace about your companions but I can't remember if you can ask anything similar of the others. If so, then this would be perfect for asking Annah about Vhailor.

# ANA334A: "Try it, and I'll grind ye to powder, ye floating bone box." -> Unused
Annah has some other random insults she directs at Morte (the one about mounting him on a pike, for instance) so this could be another spontaneous one.

# DAK024A: "Do not trust these shadows of yourself." -> Unused
When seeing a Shadow, as with Nordom's line.

# VHA027: "Executing sentence." -> Unused
Is it possible to get him to say this as he kills Trias? Does he say anything else when he does, for that matter?

# VHA023: "You have broken your word! You are a liar! A traitor to truth! An enemy to all honest men!" -> Unused - and it's a damn shame. It sounds even better than it reads.
When Vhailor discovers you are the "same" as Practical at the Pillar, does he say anything? If not, then this would be great for him to say just before he attacks you.

# NAM030: "This place stinks of death and shadow." -> Unused
Maybe something to say in the Fortress?

# NAM042: "Memories returning." -> Unused
Is it possible to have this play when he starts having a memory?

# MRT459A: "Even fifty swigs of brandy wouldn't make you look good." -> Unused
Litany of Curses!

# MRT475CA: "Chief, we really oughtta ditch this guy before he remembers something the last you did." -> Unused
Again, if you are able to ask the opinions of others apart from Grace.

[Daulmakan]

So far, I like these from those suggested:

# ANA204D: "I won't let ya down." -> Unused
# ANA245A: "I'll sort it out." -> Unused
# ANA247A: "Aye." -> Unused
After a battle command from TNO? or just a simple command.

NAM072: "The damn thing's cursed."
when you equip a cursed item?

FFT009: "Finally... at peace." -> Unused, but referenced in STRREF 58970 as "Dying" sound... restore?
Go for it!

FFT056: "Feh! You'll regret attacking me." -> Unused
Obviously played if the player decides to attack Fjhull.

Here's one I'm thinking of doing. There is an existing Vhailor banter that goes like this:

Vhailor: *I must ASK again: have we met BEFORE, Nameless One?*
Morte: "Trust me, you've never met him."
Vhailor: "*YOU do not engender TRUST in me, SKULL.*

The banter ends there, but note that Morte's line has filename MRT475AA. The very next line in the list, with the same base number, is:

MRT475CA: "Chief, we really oughtta ditch this guy before he remembers something the last you did." -> Unused

NOR158 : "Shadows in vicinity have achieved mass and threatening trajectory." -> Unused
When the party gets randomly attacked by Shadows at night, Nordom could say this when they're first detected.

# ANA179A: "We shouldn't be here... the Lady'll put us in the dead book for sure!" -> Unused
Fell's Tattoo Parlour?

# DAK024A: "Do not trust these shadows of yourself." -> Unused
When seeing a Shadow, as with Nordom's line.

# VHA023: "You have broken your word! You are a liar! A traitor to truth! An enemy to all honest men!" -> Unused - and it's a damn shame. It sounds even better than it reads.
When Vhailor discovers you are the "same" as Practical at the Pillar, does he say anything? If not, then this would be great for him to say just before he attacks you.

I'll do some of my own in a while.

[Qwinn]

NOR158 : "Shadows in vicinity have achieved mass and threatening trajectory." -> Unused
When the party gets randomly attacked by Shadows at night, Nordom could say this when they're first detected.

I like this idea.

# ANA179A: "We shouldn't be here... the Lady'll put us in the dead book for sure!" -> Unused
Ravel's Maze? Fell's Tattoo Parlour?

Annah's random area line in Ravel's Maze is ANA178A: "Ooh... from bad to worse we go!"
When first entering Fell's Studio, Annah says: "Are ye daft? We'll draw the Lady's gaze if we stay here, we will."

It's not a bad idea for triggering it upon initial entry into Ravel's Maze. In fact... hmmm...

ANA179A: "We shouldn't be here... the Lady'll put us in the dead book for sure!"
FFG069: "I fear that not all of us shall return from this place."
ANA309A: "Ye want to leave? Go ahead!"

Maybe.

EDIT: I actually think ANA179A is clearly superior to ANA178A as the random Ravel's Maze sound. After all... prior to this, you were probably in the clerk's ward, why is it "from bad to worse" then? I'd want to find another use for ANA178A then, though, if I were to change 'em. That, or just make it part of the Alt-Sound pack I mentioned earlier.

EDIT2: Urf. On further reflection, Annah would probably be a hell of a lot more scared of Ravel (whom she KNOWS is nearby at that point), and whom Annah is every bit as scared of, than the Lady. Eh. ANA179A is actually probably only really fit for Fell's Studio, and that's already got a very fitting sound, so. Bleh.

I know that you can ask Grace about your companions but I can't remember if you can ask anything similar of the others.

You can't. But even if you could, I'd be hesitant about adding to actual dialogues or about having some responses voiced with others not.

When Vhailor discovers you are the "same" as Practical at the Pillar, does he say anything? If not, then this would be great for him to say just before he attacks you.

Hrm. What word would he have broken at that point?

# NAM042: "Memories returning." -> Unused
Is it possible to have this play when he starts having a memory?

Easily... but. I kinda think the sound that plays now when you recover memories (SPTR_01) as almost iconic to the game. Dunno if replacing it with this would be better.

# DAK024A: "Do not trust these shadows of yourself." -> Unused
When seeing a Shadow, as with Nordom's line.

No. You could encounter such shadows long before you are made aware that they are "shadows of yourself". This is one of the lines I believe was intended to play in the Fortress when you meet your previous incarnations, along with MRT114: "Don't listen to 'em, chief, they're not you."

# MRT459A: "Even fifty swigs of brandy wouldn't make you look good." -> Unused
Litany of Curses!

The numbering sequence implies this was meant as part of a banter, not a Litany curse, but if we can't find any way to create a banter with it, then yep, that'd be the logical second choice. Good thought.

# VHA027: "Executing sentence." -> Unused
Is it possible to get him to say this as he kills Trias? Does he say anything else when he does, for that matter?

Here's how the Trias dialogue goes, with Vhailor nearby:

Trias: He opens his mouth for an angry retort... and pauses, reflecting. He bows his head. "You speak convincing words, mortal, and their wisdom pierces me. I shall seek the forgiveness of my fathers, and accept any retribution they choose. Take this, and farewell, mortal. If we meet again, it is my hope that I will be redeemed."
TNO: "Best of luck, Trias. Farewell." (no other option)
Vhailor: "*The deva shall NOT walk free. No matter your vow, JUSTICE must be SERVED.*"
TNO: "Watch." or "Attack the deva." (Both lead to same result, and not fitting at all, IMO. I hate this part.)
Trias: Vhailor strikes him down, shattering the bones of his proud face, bloodying his immaculate form. With his dying strength, Trias says, "Know that you have damned yourself. In killing me, you have shattered the last shield that you have against the horrors that will consume you. The fiend I tricked... he is now free..." His weak chuckle trickles off, and the light vanishes from his eyes.
TNO: "Just die already." (no other option. This after you -had- to say "Best of luck, Trias." BLEAH.)


Note that because of the way this plays out, I can't think of a way to reintroduce Trias's dying words: TTB020: "In time, my cause shall be honored." -> Unused. STRREF 58966 refers to it as "Trias Dying"

# MRT475CA: "Chief, we really oughtta ditch this guy before he remembers something the last you did." -> Unused
Again, if you are able to ask the opinions of others apart from Grace.

See my post previous to yours

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 25 May 2009 - 03:27 PM.

[Qwinn]

RE the Vhailor line, ok, I found it. Here's what he says in dialogue at the pillar:

*YOU. It is YOU. How LONG have I hunted you, Nameless One? And how long would I stand BESIDE you before the DECEPTION was exposed?* As he hefts his axe into the air, pure *power* begins to course through him... his dedication, his incredible conviction is turning Vhailor into the literal, physical embodiment of justice. *It is FATE that has placed me so close to you, CRIMINAL. JUSTICE shall be served. You shall FALL beneath my blade, immortal, even if I have to stand over your struggling remains for ETERNITY.*

I see it as grounds for calling him a liar, but not "breaking your word", really. The voiced line we're trying to restore is pretty specific to dishonesty/oathbreaking, whereas at the pillar it's all about how many people have died in your place.

You know where I thought it would've been fitting? As part of the memory of your first imprisoning him, back when he was still alive. At that point, you tricked him into a meeting, and the dishonesty/broken word thing would've been really fitting. Unfortunately, the way its written, it's very hard to introduce this line. If anyone would like to read it, you can check it out in NI, it starts at DVHAIL state 134.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Incidentally, has anyone played through with an evil character, so that you fought Vhailor in the Fortress instead of Ignus, and taken Ignus with you there? Do you get to resurrect Ignus and have him fight TO with you in that circumstance?

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

# ANA204D: "I won't let ya down." -> Unused
# ANA245A: "I'll sort it out." -> Unused
# ANA247A: "Aye." -> Unused
After a battle command from TNO? or just a simple command.

Good call... these would make good alternate "Action" sounds in the starting-to-seem-worthwhile Alt-Sound component. They would replace her existing "Action" sounds:

# ANA242B: "Why not?" -> CRE 0x124, Action
# ANA247E: "Right." -> CRE 0x128, Action
# ANA251C: "Might as well." -> CRE 0x12c, Action

And actually, if we do wind up being able to use the extra sound slots in the CRE for more stuff, I'd prefer to just -add- them rather than replace. (Currently, there's only 3 "Action" slots, expanding that to 6 would rock).

If scient could do that, then I think we could add the following as Action sounds to other characters:

NOR313B: "Affirmatory." (reused from banter)
NOR321B: "Understood." (reused from banter)
NOR291B: "Yes, that is quite logical." (reused from banter)

FFG249: "It would be my pleasure." (reused from banter)

ANA204D: "I won't let ya down." -> Unused
ANA245A: "I'll sort it out." -> Unused
ANA247A: "Aye." -> Unused

MRT133: "You got it chief." -> Unused
MRT412C: "Done." -> Unused

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Well, this was an interesting discovery:

For these two:

# VHA041: "I continue the battle beyond the Eternal Boundary." -> Unused
# VHA043: "Justice is eternal." -> Unused, STRREF 61894

I was thinking of adding them to DEATH.2DA. Most PC's only have a DEATH.2DA sound when someone -else- in the party dies. Vhailor doesn't care when other people die, he's only set up to make one sound ("I am undone.") when -he- dies. I was thinking I could add those 2 sounds to it so he could potentially say one of the three lines at random.

And that's when I discovered that even the one line doesn't work. Apparently, having the DEATH.2DA refer to the PC's own death doesn't work. (Makes sense, who's going to say the sound? He disappears as soon as he dies.)

SO! Even the "I am undone" appears to be unused. Adding a script to Vhailor so that he'll say one of the 3 sounds - VHA040, VHA041 or VHA043, when he dies. And this should definitely work even when he dies in the Fortress.

EDIT: Ugh. That's only gonna be a good solution -in- the Fortress. Elsewhere, the sound plays at the same time as some other party member's DEATH.2DA sound plays, and you can't properly hear either. Bleah. Will have to think on this.

EDIT2: Turns out Grace also has a DEATH.2DA sound that refers to herself - FFG045 ("Forgive me."). That one doesn't work either. So at this point, I'm calling it an engine bug and asking scient to take a look. If he can get self-references in DEATH.2DA working, then I will add those two entries to Vhailor's in UB's Restored Sounds and Banters component. (And for that matter, the original Restoration Pack fixed one entry and restored another entry in Morte's DEATH.2DA sounds and I left both in my Fixpack, think I will move the restoration to RS&B also).

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 25 May 2009 - 07:26 PM.

[Qwinn]

Came up with a workaround solution that works fine without needing an engine fix. So, basically, unbeknownst to us all, FFG045 and VHA040 -were- previously unused. They will work as of Fixpack version 4.0. And the UB RS&B component will add VHA041 and VHA043 as DEATH.2DA sounds for Vhailor.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 25 May 2009 - 08:31 PM.

[Qwinn]

Ok, here's my idea for how to implement that really cool Vhailor sound, the one where he yells about you breaking your word...

As we all know, in PS:T chaos and law are all about how much you lie vs. tell the truth. But in the Fortress, you fight Ignus if you are good or neutral, and Vhailor if you are evil. Chaotic and Lawful has no bearing.

When the fight starts, Vhailor says: "Know that I am your fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.". Then, during the fight, every so often, he yells "Liar!" or "Betrayer!"

I'm thinking we should base what he says depending on your Chaos/Law score.

So, if your Law >= 0, he starts with "Know that I am your fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.". And during the fight, he says "Betrayer!", "Your actions cry out for justice." (unused MORALE sound), and "Executing sentence." (also unused)

But if your Law < 0, he starts with "You have broken your word! You are a liar! A traitor to truth! An enemy to all honest men!". And during the fight, he says "Betrayer!", "Liar!" and "Defend yourself." (another unused line).

That would restore pretty much all the unused lines worth hearing that he has, and would make Vhailor actually recognize your Law score in the Fortress scene. I think it only makes sense that it should have SOME impact.

Whatcha all think?

(As an additional thought, I think it would make a LOT more sense if you fought Vhailor if you were Chaotic Neutral, instead of Ignus. Considering how big Vhailor is on Law, it seems quite wrong that as CN you'd fight... the CN guy. Maybe even Chaotic Good as well. So actually, I'd be proposing Ignus if you're LG, LN, NG or N, and Vhailor if you're CE, LE, NE, or CN. And CG... heh, I could actually have it be 50/50 chance on that one. Whatcha all think? If I do do something like that, yes, I will ask MCA about it when I get the chance.).

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 25 May 2009 - 09:14 PM.

[Philiposophy]

Qwinn, my thought concerning the "breaking your word" was that you either can or have to say to Vhailor that you believe in justice when you get him to join. I was thinking that when he realizes who you are, he will see that as you breaking your word, because you don't actually believe in justice (well, the Practical Incarnation at least, being Neutral Evil and all...). Okay it's a bit of a stretch maybe but it's just my suggestion

I like your other idea about implementing it into the fight though so that would be pretty cool as well.

As for the alignments in the Trial of Impulse... I like the idea of putting more emphasis on your Lawfulness. Though I'm not sure if including CG is a bit of a stretch or not...

[Qwinn]

Okay it's a bit of a stretch maybe but it's just my suggestion

Hehe, no worries, suggestions are good! Even if they are really bad it might still spark a good idea somewhere. And no, yours wasn't bad at all, hehe... I wouldn't even call it -that- much of a stretch, really, but I think basing it on alignment is a better way to go. I just dislike the idea of an extremely Lawful TNO getting that line thrown at him. Chaotics, on the other hand, got no room to complain

Though I'm not sure if including CG is a bit of a stretch or not...

Yeah, I know. Sigh. I could -maybe-, with a lot of weaving and ducking, get away with doing the CN bit as a fix, but adding in CG (even if only half the time) would definitely put it in Tweak territory... and it seems kinda trivial to -actually- make a whole tweak for. I do like the idea quite a bit though. I'm hoping CA will like it also and give me the moral authority for making the change, heheh. That won't be for quite some time though, I suspect not before 4.0 is released.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 26 May 2009 - 05:54 AM.

[Philiposophy]

Chaotic Good is quite a hard alignment to end up with, isn't it? Because lots of the things you can do to gain Chaotic points also net you Evil points. I suppose if you end up as Chaotic Good, you'll have done mostly good things but probably lied about your name to lots of people and always bluffed instead of promising. The question is, will Vhailor really care about those things so much? At this point I'm thinking maybe not.

The way I've always seen it is that you basically have to be as nasty and malicious as Practical to get Vhailor (which is fitting, of course). Everyone else just gets Ignus, not because Ignus frowns on your good actions but because he's totally insane.

[Qwinn]

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I don't wildly disagree or anything (and in fact I would not implement the CG change as anything other than a tweak, and probably wouldn't even do the CN thing until after version 4.0), but let me see if I can effectively argue the other side.

Vhailor gives you his big strength boost (or not) based not on your good/evil but your law/chaos. If you're going to sum up the law/chaos axis as "probably lied about your name to lots of people and always bluffed instead of promising.", well, in the vanilla game, that is indeed what determines how much of a strength boost you get from him (up to +3). So I wouldn't toss it aside as something Vhailor doesn't care about. I do actually think that to get a solid chaotic alignment, odds are you've probably broken a few oaths too, those get you the really big chaotic hits.

Another supporting data point that Vhailor cares about oathbreaking and honesty? The very line we're seeking to restore. It certainly indicates that truth/lying matters greatly to Vhailor. Granted, this point is weaker since it -didn't- actually make it into the game, tho we can't know if that was on purpose or not. But if we are to restore it, then I think it should depend on your chaos/law axis. It certainly shouldn't be said to very lawful characters, IMO. Even Lawful Evil ones.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Anyways, for the time being, all I'm suggesting is that Vhailor have his pre-fight and combat lines in the Fortress dependent on Chaos/Law, and to restore his unused lines as I noted above. This would be done in the UB RS&B component. No change to what alignments get you Vhailor/Ignus.

Any opinions/objections there?

And still hoping for more ideas on the rest of the stuff

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Couple corrections, already made to the Sound thread. VHA043 ("Justice is Eternal") -is- assigned and works properly as Vhailor's Dying sound in the Fortress. That one's already in game. Since it does get used, I won't add it to DEATH.2DA, I'll just add VHA041 ("I continue the battle beyond the Eternal Boundary").

Also found that 3 Ignus sounds I thought were unused actually are used in the Fortress Ignus fight. Also discovered that Ignus DOES say "Master, forgive me, I have betrayed your teaching" when he dies in the Fortress. Damn battle music is so loud I never heard it before.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 26 May 2009 - 09:56 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, based on all the input so far as well as my own thoughts, here's the planned restorations and banter changes (above and beyond what I've already got in bold red in the sound thread). I invite approval/disapproval/objections/contempt or whatever other opinion anyone has about 'em, before I get to actually doing the work to put 'em in.

And now I'm going to stop working on this for a bit, and focus more on other things like my job. Will let your guys' opinions, suggestions, objections and ideas accumulate for a bit.



Banter additions. Bolded line is a new restoration.

Vhailor: *I must ASK again: have we met BEFORE, Nameless One?*
MRT475AA: Morte: "Trust me, you've never met him."
Vhailor: "*YOU do not engender TRUST in me, SKULL.*
MRT475CA: "Chief, we really oughtta ditch this guy before he remembers something the last you did."

Nordom: "Attention: Morte. I have a question. What is fate?"
Morte: "Fall-From-Grace scratching the back of my skull while singing the Sonata of Lights in my ear."
Nordom: "Fate does not seem to possess the complexities that many believe."
MRT570B: "Tell it to the Gods, Nordom."

Scripted Sounds:

NOR158 : "Shadows in vicinity have achieved mass and threatening trajectory." -> Upon shadows spawning at night in the Lower or Clerk's Wards. Or perhaps when first seen by party in those two areas. Will play around to see which is better. Note: No plans to play this sound in either Ravel's Maze or Fortress.

New Neutral/Good TO combat taunts:

TRA007: "How dare you come to this place, my home, again?"
TRA048: "There shall be an ending between us, Broken One."
TRA049: "This shall be the end of matters between us."
TRA069: "This entire fortress is mine to command."

New Evil TO combat taunts

TRA043: "After I have torn you apart, I shall feed you to the shades of those that died in your place."
TRA065: "Defiance will hurt you more than any wound in this place. Anger me, and the twist of a knife through your heart will be a fond memory in what remains of your consciousness."
TRA074: "Pain shall teach you."
TRA078C: "I was building this fortress through force of will while you were dying in barfights and contracting diseases in Sigil's brothels. There's nothing I cannot do."


Creature Sounds:

Fhjull:

FFT009: "Finally... at peace." -> FHJULL.CRE 0xf0 "DYING"
FFT056: "Feh! You'll regret attacking me." -> FHJULL.CRE 0xdc "ATTACK"
FFT065: "Feh! Thrice damned be you, mortal." -> FHJULL.CRE 0xec "DAMAGE"

Annah:

ANA128C: "Dammit, nicked me good!" -> ANNAH.CRE 0xdc "ATTACK"
ANA319C: "Don't like the armor, he's nuts." -> ANNAH.CRE 0x168 (Insult Annah to Vhailor)


Morte's Taunt:

Replacing existing taunt MRT320: "Aw, squit." (seriously, that's what it sounds like, if someone can tell me what he's -actually- saying, please do, but as it stands it's a really lame taunt) with MRT459A: "Even fifty swigs of brandy wouldn't make you look good."




And finally, the Vhailor bit mentioned above:

As it stands, when the fight starts, Vhailor says: "Know that I am your fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.". Then, during the fight, every so often, he yells "Liar!" or "Betrayer!"

Will change so that:

If your Law >= -15 (Neutral or Lawful), he starts with "Know that I am your fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.". And during the fight, he says "Betrayer!", "Your actions cry out for justice." (unused MORALE sound), and "Executing sentence." (also unused)
If your Law < -15 (Chaotic), he starts with "You have broken your word! You are a liar! A traitor to truth! An enemy to all honest men!". And during the fight, he says "Betrayer!", "Liar!" and "Defend yourself." (another unused line).

All of these would go into Restored Sounds and Banters component in UB.

None of them require any engine tweaking. There's of course lots of other stuff we could potentially restore, but that'll take doing on scient's part, so we'll address those when they become actually possible to do

Let me know if anything here wouldn't be popular. I can't know if no one tells me

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 26 May 2009 - 01:38 PM.

[Philiposophy]

Good stuff there, Qwinn. I don't disagree with any of your suggested additions.

[ghostdog]

I think you should go ahead. All the restorations sound pretty good.

[Qwinn]

Coolness. Did you guys review the stuff in red bold in the sound analysis thread as well? Also open to criticism on those as well.

Qwinn