1095 replies to this topic

[subtledoctor]

@subtledoctor: why not looking for a solution inside your mod that could be less restrective. The more you use 2da the more you must look for all items, restrictions, characters, kits that will loose compatibility. You will make new rules - the old SCS and BP problem - so your mod should be installed as last as possible.

I'd be happy to do that, if I knew how or had enough information. But I don't know how Sandrah's items are coded, and I don't know how or why they become unusable. And you might have noticed, the person who actually has that information, who actually coded them, has contributed no actual, valuable information to this discussion. There are clearly people who want to use both mods together; Roxanne's response has been, for instance, to hide FnP in non-obvious places in the BWS program to make it harder for people to use it. Or to fill the forums with small lies like "changes on a daily basis" when the mod actually has not been touched in several months.

I would like to figure out these problems and solve them so players can play the game how they want. You can see I have spent lots of effort toward this, creating a chunk of code for modders like Roxanne to use to ensure compatibility, giving hypotheses and advice and actual code here. But I get rebuffed or insulted.  Meh, not the end of the world, I have pretty thick skin and giong on the internet these days means you're going to get trolled at some point.  But I want to make this stuff work, and I don't have enough information to make it work, and someone in a position to help says "nah, I don't feel like helping." That's extremely frustrating.

[southfla79]

I don't know if this is for will help. If I unckeck the original class kits in near infinity, the sandrah modded items become usable. I vaguely remember seeing some in the fnp code that defined usibility based off those three kits. Could the problem like there? I ask because I had no issues with the gith npc in the sandrah mod having item issues. 

[Roxanne]

Just for being called a liar, here are some facts:

 

in my highly modded EET game the item has not opcode 319 restriction. Further analysis:

 

Mods affecting NPCHAN.ITM:
00000: ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ 0 0 // Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: V4 Beta 9
00001: ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ 0 1040 // Revised Armor -> With Movement Speed Penalties: V4 Beta 9
00002: ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ 0 2 // Allow Spellcasting in Armor -> With a Chance of Arcane Casting Failure: V4 Beta 9
00003: ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ 0 19 // Revised Backstabbing -> More Weapons Usable for Backstabbing: V4 Beta 9
00004: ~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ 0 110 // Icon Improvements: Beta 5 BWP Fix

 

Item revision 0 removes the restriction. The original NPChan in ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV. 0 backuo still has the flag but in the next step after this component ii is gone.

 

Here is one of Sandrah's items with the opcode 319

 

 

Edited by Roxanne, 08 October 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[Roxanne]

Back to dependings.
SCS rulesets are phantstic. Not the content parts. They are only relevant because of the rules. But - as Leonardo tested - and his testings are another quasi-standard for BGT, BWS and the complete IEET - you can change order of F&P, M&G and SCS - nobody tries cause SCS is standard. And some rules might change by selecting another order.

 

Yes, I can only say I fully agree.

 

I remember the time when we had SCSi and SCSII and each of it contained multiple components of any nature.

Both the BWP and the BWS broke the install into different portions and installed contents components with the contents mods, tweaks with the tweak mods etc.

 

These days, SCS is one big block. Every component has this condition REQUIRE_PREDICATE FILE_EXISTS ~override/dw#setup.mrk~ which is set by the main component1000.

 

And do not ask me why a component that appends to parting dialogues for NPCs to be send to an inn requires the main component? Or ask me and I will answer that there is absolutely no such requirement technically.

 

The monolithic nature of SCS is one of the mayor problems for large installs and such for BWS. But even some respected authority like Alien has failed to convince the authors to consider changing that.

[Roxanne]

Roxanne and subtledoctor can you please take long breath and work together to solve technical challenges of installing two mods together, regardless of install order? Focusing on calling names each other and proving what's wrong will take you nowhere. The last thing I would wanted to see is that BWS is the cause of conflicts between modders.

 

How about Sandra mod will have an overdrive directory and a file called "SandrahNPCInstallationReady.label" so the F&P will know that Sandrah NPC will be installed later and preform actions? Or Sandra NPC mod will preform actions after installation of the F&P?

The last option is already in place by having included F&P's mod compatibility code into Sandrah's setup.

[subtledoctor]

can you please take long breath and work together to solve technical challenges of installing two mods together,

 

Like I said, I am fully aware that some players want to use both mods together, and I want to help those players.  What do you think I'm doing here talking about this?  I don't have Sandrah installed, so this is not for my own benefit.

 

How about Sandra mod will have an overdrive directory and a file called "SandrahNPCInstallationReady.label" so the F&P will know that Sandrah NPC will be installed later and preform actions?

 

Unfortunately this is not possible.  The FnP sphere system works by giving sphere spells to characters via their kit's CLAB table... this cannot happen if the kit is not installed yet.  So the mod specifically is intended to be installed after all divine-class kit mods.

 

Nevertheless, I took many many hours to devise code that other modders can simply copy and paste into their mods, which will run a miniature version of the sphere system all over again, after their kit is installed, JUST so that other modders can buck the install order instructions and have their mods installed later.  Note, Sandrah is the only NPC/kit/content mod that has actually decided it needs to be installed so late, so I really did all that work solely for the benefit of player who want to use the Sandrah mod.  (And fat lot of thanks I get, the response from Roxanne is to insult FnP and lie about it. )

 

So, once again, I am happy to do what needs to be done - short of "disable the sphere system," 'cause it's a frackin' sphere system mod, and the sphere system is awesome.  I just need more information in order to do anything.

[subtledoctor]

Btw I went back and looked at how the FnP usability stuff works (I had forgotten), and it looks like since the Sandrah code specifies that she can use plate armor, the FnP compatibility code gives the Talos kit usability flag to the CVMystra kit.

So perhaps the answer to the usability issues is to simply make her equipment usable by the priest of Talos kit? (This should have no other ramifications, because the Talos kit flag is actually not used by the game, even by actual priests of Talos.)

[southfla79]

did a couple of quick edits in near infinity. the talos kit selection under unsusable by is disabling her equipment.

[subtledoctor]

Ah ha! That's what I'm talking about, confirmation of a theory! Now it becomes much easier to fix the problem.

But, unfortunately, once again, I cannot fix the problem. FnP runs before those items are installed into the game, so I can't clear that flag. The only two options are 1) change them in the Sandrah mod itself; or 2) create a hotfix mod and run it after everything else. Or I guess, 3) use the BWFixPack to patch the Sandrah mod files.

I humbly suggest that option 1 is the best. I prefer that the FixPack do as little as possible, since it has its own maintenance issues. And who wants more little hotfix mods to keep track of? Clearing the kit flags in the mod itself should be harmless, because as far as I know neither the vanilla game nor any mods use those flags in any way (except FnP).
 
EDIT - by the way @Roxanne, spurred by all this talk of mod conflicts and inspection of my code, I have now, really, for the first time in 2 months, updated the compatibility code.  The latest version can now be found here... and this is an easy update.  No code needs to be changed on your end, you only need to grab the new version of "fnp_compat.tpa" from the /lib folder, and replace the old version of that file with this new version.  Combined with FnP v0.74n or later, the only new effect is to give that "mystery scroll" a proper description and icon.  (If you don't care about the mystery scroll, then you can feel free to ignore this update.)
 
I'm actually sort of hopeful that this finally hammers out all of the compatibility conflicts... finger crossed...

Edited by subtledoctor, 08 October 2017 - 06:55 PM.

[Roxanne]

The following changes were made in the Sandrah mod based on the various recent reports

 

1) made her equipment usable by the priest of Talos kit  (This is based on the assumption that the Talos kit flag is actually not used by the game, even by actual priests of Talos.) Note that the flag is used by 100+ items outside of the Sandrah mod, including SoD items. I mention this as a reminder just in case similar issues are detected with other NPCs equipment as a possible point to investigate.

2) updated the mod with the latest fnp_compat.tpa

 

Hopefully the only effect this may have in game is the unlikely case that Sandrah, priestess of Talos, uses items blessed by (archenemy) Mystra. Unless the player intentionally manipulates her, Sandrah is priestess of Mystra.

 

Thank you to everyone who took time and effort to help tracking down this well hidden problem source.

Edited by Roxanne, 08 October 2017 - 10:21 PM.

[datachild]

A short question regarding crossmod content between Sandrah and Ascalons Questpack. The later implements a quest in the area of the Trade Way North regarding a little Girl that misses her bunny Jumper. In the original version of the mod this bunny can be found in the cave to the west on the same map (in the possession of the ?orgre? "Ugh"). Since the Sandrah mod uses this cave too for its own content it seems to me that "Ugh" is lost and the quest is therefore unsolvable. Or did I miss something?

 

Edit: If at all possible some quick fix for my running game would be nice .

Edited by datachild, 09 October 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[Roxanne]

A short question regarding crossmod content between Sandrah and Ascalons Questpack. The later implements a quest in the area of the Trade Way North regarding a little Girl that misses her bunny Jumper. In the original version of the mod this bunny can be found in the cave to the west on the same map (in the possession of the ?orgre? "Ugh"). Since the Sandrah mod uses this cave too for its own content it seems to me that "Ugh" is lost and the quest is therefore unsolvable. Or did I miss something?

 

Edit: If at all possible some quick fix for my running game would be nice .

Spoiler

Ogre and the rabbit should be outside the cave and a little west of that hill not inside

[southfla79]

The following changes were made in the Sandrah mod based on the various recent reports

 

1) made her equipment usable by the priest of Talos kit  (This is based on the assumption that the Talos kit flag is actually not used by the game, even by actual priests of Talos.) Note that the flag is used by 100+ items outside of the Sandrah mod, including SoD items. I mention this as a reminder just in case similar issues are detected with other NPCs equipment as a possible point to investigate.

2) updated the mod with the latest fnp_compat.tpa

 

Hopefully the only effect this may have in game is the unlikely case that Sandrah, priestess of Talos, uses items blessed by (archenemy) Mystra. Unless the player intentionally manipulates her, Sandrah is priestess of Mystra.

 

Thank you to everyone who took time and effort to help tracking down this well hidden problem source.

 

Just thought I'd report after an 18 hours install (why can't I play w/o SCS?) and the new update, Sandrah's items are usable without any editing along with FnP. Thanks for updating Roxanne!

[Roxanne]

Just thought I'd report after an 18 hours install (why can't I play w/o SCS?) and the new update, Sandrah's items are usable without any editing along with FnP. Thanks for updating Roxanne!

Good to hear the feedback. At least the preliminary workaround helps in the Sandrah case. Unless some side effects show up later.

 

There is still the uneasy situation that the problem source was not found and we just have a workaround instead of a solution. The flags (that do not do what they say they do but nobody seems to know what they do) are set in over 100 items in a large EET install. Many of them are equipment, weapons or armour. I am still afraid that Sandrah was just the peak of the iceberg. Call me doomsayer...

 

Just in case it helps, here is a list of items with those flags set that I found in my game. Could be used for reference to see in case issues with any of those should appear

 Talos_flagged_items.txt   3.54K   103 downloads

Edited by Roxanne, 10 October 2017 - 11:07 PM.

[subtledoctor]

I'll explain everything I understand about it. The Lathander, Helm and Talos kit flags are unused by the vanilla game - if you look in kitlist.2da, you'll see that even those kits do not use them, rather they use the trueclass flag 0x00004000. So setting those flags in items is completely useless. Some items may have them set in an abundance of caution, or because they were created from other items that already had the flag set, or something like that. But it has no effect in the game. All clerics use the class flag for usability - not the kit flags.

Now FnP comes along and, being a cleric kit mod, decides to make use of those flags. But not in the vanilla fashion where there are 3 kits with 3 different levels of usability. FnP has 40+ cleric kits, and we've set up a system with the sphere function where each kit can define its own unique usability restrictions. What FnP does is this:
- All weapons unusable by clerics become unusable by the cleric kits.
- All weapons and armor usable by fighter/mages become usable by cleric kits.
- All armors with the plate mail appearance are given the Lathander and Helm flags (so, usable by Talos)
- All armors with chain mail appearance are given the Lathander flag (so, usable by Helm and Talos)
- Any kit with "plate_mail = 1" in the FnP compatibility function, if it is a cleric kit, has its entry in kitlist.2da patched such that it uses the Talos usability flag.
- Any cleric whose compatibility specifies chain but not plate, gets the Helm flag in kitlist.2da. If both chain and plate are set to 0 then it gets the Lathander flag.
- Weapons are treated differently; recall from above that almost all weapons are made usable by all clerics; then, restrictions are applied to each kit by weapon type, with opcode 181, according to the variables set in the compatibility function.

So any weapons or armors in that list will have their usability superseded, for clerics and druids only, by the definitions in the FnP compatibility function. Any kits with nothing so defined will get a default set of restrictions, depending on its underlying class... as long as the kit exists at the time FnP is installed. That's why FnP wants to be installed after all other divine kit mods, and why Sandrah, being installed later, needs to specifically opt in.

Non-weapon, non-armor items are not changed. The only way their behavior would differ from a vanilla install is if it is unusable by cleric kits, but usable by the cleric class. That combination of flags makes no sense for a vanilla install, so the number of items matching those characteristics should be zero.

EDIT - note, whenever I say "cleric" above, I am including both single-class and multiclass clerics.

Edited by subtledoctor, 11 October 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[Roxanne]

Hello Roxanne,

 

I have a little problem. Where and when am I supposed to meet Haiass the first time? I seem to recall, that he should appear directly after I get Sandrah into my party. But this time nothing happens. I already left the map and tried resting, but no luck so far. 

After our last discussion I installed again via BWS in the recommended order. Scales of Balance and Faiths and powers seem to work better with Sandrah then the last time. 

 

Thanks for your help.

Spoiler

He should appear some minutes after Sandrah joined on the map where you meet her and Imoen.

[datachild]

Hi Roxanne, another question regarding Sandrah.

Spoiler

After teaming up with Edwin he becomes cursed. During the next conversation with Sandrah he is blaming her for this curse. During the conversation I selected an answer along the line that I trust her and rely on her counsel. Yet the next passage says that she is deeply saddend by my mistrust in her. From the selected line this seems to be uncalled for (possible bug?). Yet as an additional question, does this trigger some kind of negative response in the future?

Edited by datachild, 13 October 2017 - 12:23 PM.

[Roxanne]

Hi Roxanne, another question regarding Sandrah.

Spoiler

After teaming up with Edwin he becomes cursed. During the next conversation with Sandrah he is blaming her for this curse. During the conversation I selected an answer along the line that I trust her and rely on her counsel. Yet the next passage says that she is deeply saddend by my mistrust in her. From the selected line this seems to be uncalled for (possible bug?). Yet as an additional question, does this trigger some kind of negative response in the future?

If at all, the outcome of this episode has only very minor effect on your relationship with Sandrah. In this particular case the impact (if any) is determined by the answer you gave before that.