90 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

Later I'll start to work on Multiclass tables, trying to follow the general theme of the mod and the guidelines debated with TGM.
They will be toned down.

A fighter/mage won't access to Arcane Knowledge, which is now pre-requisite for Bonus Spells (merged in one) and Improved Alacrity. But they WILL gain the new spells, Aegis and Deathfield.
As fighters they should lose just the "Greater" stuff.

Other classes will behave similarly, losing, for start, the passive abilities, like "Enlightenment".
An exception, I think, should be */druids, since race that can multiclass have generally a close contact with Nature, and if I don't give them Nature's Blessing they'll lose too many things! They could maybe lose Elemental Prince Call.

A special case in all of this will be Illusionists like Jan: I've found the way to grant them access to Mirrored Clones B)
(In truth, it will be in some tables, greyed for non-illusionists)

Complaints will be re-directed to the Insults thread

[T.G.Maestro]

An exception, I think, should be */druids, since race that can multiclass have generally a close contact with Nature, and if I don't give them Nature's Blessing they'll lose too many things! They could maybe lose Elemental Prince Call.

Or/and Volcano. That one is too powerful to be cast by anyone less than a pure Druid.

[GreyViper]

What are the pre-requisite's to gain and cast lvl 10 spells? One that I know is mage/psion and that was explained that in order to undestand the complex spells of higer level you had to have special insight and clear understanding. What about mage/cleric/psion? B) I know that the psion part can wait till later versions but, I am just curious.

[T.G.Maestro]

What are the pre-requisite's to gain and cast lvl 10 spells?

Right now: nothing special.
For the future I plan to include an experience level requirement to the new HLAs, but this will need a thorough and time consuming revision on the tables - something we would like to avoid at the moment

[Littiz]

I could do it earlier, but hey. I thought multiclasses could use their own thread for further debate.
Since I'm lazy though, I'll simply copy-paste from the doc.
For some reasons it doesn't look quite as ordered here, but still.


//////////////////////////////////
///2.12: Multiclasses //
//////////////////////////////////




//2.12.1: Fighter/Mage

Table:

-Whirlwind Attack
-Deathblow
-Power Attack
-Critical Strike (requires: Power Attack)
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Hardiness
-Energy Blades
-Dragon's Breath#
-Summon Planetar (excluded by: Summon Dark Planetar)
-Summon Dark Planetar (excluded by: Summon Planetar)
-Comet#
-Aegis#
-Death Field# (Illusionists excluded)
-Mirrored Clones# (Illusionists only)
-Scribe Scrolls#


********************




//2.12.2: Fighter/Druid

Table:

-Whirlwind Attack
-Deathblow
-Power Attack
-Critical Strike (requires: Power Attack)
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Hardiness
-Elemental Summoning#
-Aura of Flaming Death
-Storm of Vengeance
-Implosion# (requires: Blessing of Nature#)
-Nature's Wrath# (requires: Blessing of Nature#)
-Tranquility# (requires: Blessing of Nature#)
-Fire Elemental Transformation
-Earth Elemental Transformation
-Blessing of Nature#


********************




//2.12.3: Fighter/Cleric

Table:

-Whirlwind Attack
-Deathblow
-Power Attack
-Critical Strike (requires: Power Attack)
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Hardiness
-Aura of Flaming Death
-Storm of Vengeance
-Elemental Summoning#
-Globe of Blades
-Summon Deva (excluded by: Summon Fallen Deva)
-Summon Fallen Deva (excluded by: Summon Deva)
-Implosion
-Destruction# (excluded by: Mass Raise Dead)
-Mass Raise Dead (excluded by: Destruction#)
-Divine Shell#


********************




//2.12.4: Fighter/Thief

Table:

-Whirlwind Attack
-Deathblow
-Power Attack
-Critical Strike (requires: Power Attack)
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Hardiness
-Set Spike Trap
-Set Exploding Trap
-Set Time Trap
-Assassination
-Cripple#
-Evasion#
-Greater Evasion (requires: Evasion#)
-Avoid Death# (requires: Evasion#)
-Use Scrolls#


********************




//2.12.5: Mage/Thief

Table:

-Energy Blades
-Dragon's Breath#
-Summon Planetar (excluded by: Summon Dark Planetar)
-Summon Dark Planetar (excluded by: Summon Planetar)
-Comet#
-Aegis#
-Death Field# (Illusionists excluded)
-Mirrored Clones# (Illusionists only)
-Scribe Scrolls#
-Alchemy
-Set Spike Trap
-Set Exploding Trap
-Set Time Trap
-Assassination
-Cripple#
-Evasion#
-Greater Evasion (requires: Evasion#)
-Avoid Death# (requires: Evasion#)


********************




//2.12.6: Cleric/Thief

Table:

-Aura of Flaming Death
-Storm of Vengeance
-Elemental Summoning#
-Globe of Blades
-Summon Deva (excluded by: Summon Fallen Deva)
-Summon Fallen Deva (excluded by: Summon Deva)
-Implosion
-Destruction# (excluded by: Mass Raise Dead)
-Mass Raise Dead (excluded by: Destruction#)
-Divine Shell#
-Set Exploding Trap
-Set Time Trap
-Assassination
-Cripple#
-Evasion#
-Avoid Death# (requires: Evasion#)
-Alchemy
-Use Scrolls#


********************




//2.12.7: Cleric/Ranger

Table:

-Aura of Flaming Death
-Storm of Vengeance
-Elemental Summoning#
-Globe of Blades
-Summon Deva
-Implosion
-Mass Raise Dead
-Divine Shell#
-Whirlwind Attack
-Power Attack
-Critical Strike (requires: Power Attack)
-Hardiness
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Tracking
-Endurance#


********************




//2.12.8: Cleric/Mage

Table:

-Aura of Flaming Death
-Storm of Vengeance
-Elemental Summoning#
-Globe of Blades
-Summon Deva (excluded by: Summon Fallen Deva)
-Summon Fallen Deva (excluded by: Summon Deva)
-Implosion
-Destruction# (excluded by: Mass Raise Dead)
-Mass Raise Dead (excluded by: Destruction#)
-Divine Shell#
-Energy Blades
-Dragon's Breath#
-Summon Planetar (excluded by: Summon Dark Planetar)
-Summon Dark Planetar (excluded by: Summon Planetar)
-Comet#
-Aegis#
-Death Field# (Illusionists excluded)
-Mirrored Clones# (Illusionists only)
-Scribe Scrolls#


********************




//2.12.9: Fighter/Mage/Thief

Table:

-Whirlwind Attack
-Deathblow
-Power Attack
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Hardiness
-Energy Blades
-Dragon's Breath#
-Comet#
-Aegis#
-Death Field#
-Scribe Scrolls#
-Alchemy
-Set Spike Trap
-Set Exploding Trap
-Set Time Trap
-Assassination
-Cripple#
-Evasion#
-Avoid Death# (requires: Evasion#)


********************




//2.12.10: Fighter/Mage/Cleric

Table:

-Whirlwind Attack
-Deathblow
-Power Attack
-Critical Strike (requires: Power Attack)
-War Cry
-Resist Magic
-Hardiness
-Energy Blades
-Dragon's Breath#
-Comet#
-Aegis#
-Death Field#
-Scribe Scrolls#
-Aura of Flaming Death
-Storm of Vengeance
-Elemental Summoning#
-Globe of Blades
-Implosion
-Destruction# (excluded by: Mass Raise Dead)
-Mass Raise Dead (excluded by: Destruction#)
-Divine Shell#


********************

[T.G.Maestro]

Multiclassed thieves may lose Time Trap for the final version, I still think that ability requires too much specialization to be allowed fro mixed characters.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

The Refinements Mod is somewhat of an arrogant project. We feel that some components of the game are somehow misplaced, not detailed enough, not balanced enough, not cool enough, or... you get the picture.   So we've tried to fix them, with the aim to provide a new standard of gameplay that fits the original game.

Let me open by saying that there are a lot of things in general I like about what you guys have reviled about your work to date. I?m even up with the idea of ?rebalancing? the game in a lot of areas. However I?m a bit uneasy about some of the particulars so far.

Later I'll start to work on Multiclass tables, trying to follow the general theme of the mod and the guidelines debated with TGM.
They will be toned down.

A fighter/mage won't access to Arcane Knowledge, which is now pre-requisite for Bonus Spells (merged in one) and Improved Alacrity. But they WILL gain the new spells, Aegis and Deathfield.

As fighters they should lose just the "Greater" stuff.

Other classes will behave similarly

I can see why this seems logical for instance. Your Fighter/Mage is a lower level fighter and a lower level mage than a single class of either when they both start getting HLAs. As a ?lesser? fighter it only seems fitting that the multiclass wouldn?t be quite as good at the fighter HLAs as the pure fighter.

But there are a number of flaws to this logic.

First there are the inconvenient facts of hard caps and numbered level breaks.

THACO stops getting better for fighters around level 21. A multicalss fighter/mage can get to 21st level.

Also the pure fighter will start getting HLAs at 19th level. A multiclass fighter/mage can easily get past 19th level as a fighter.

Given these two facts a sufficiently experienced fighter/mage can be just as good at combat numerically as the pure fighter (though it will take him much longer to get there) ? so why in theory should he be barred from some HLAs just because he is multi-classed?

Why should a F/M 24/20 be unable to learn a fighting technique (HLA) that a single classed F 21 could?

The second major issue is dual-classing.

Already in many respects dual class characters have many advantages over their multiclassed kin. Dual class PCs can choose a kit, optimize XP splitting, almost always have more HP, etc.

The *only* advantage the multiclass character almost always had was the HLAs.

While a Kensai 13 / Mage xx would have more HP, more proficiency slots, roughly the same THACO, and ultimately more spells than his multiclass Fighter/Mage cousin in the default game he was limited to only Mage HLAs where the Fighter/Mage could learn HLAs from both tables. If you neuter the mulitclass Fighter/Mage HLA selection then truly he is lame by comparison.

Now I?ve seen others argue that Dual-classing itself is unbalanced but unless you stop it altogether with your mod you have taken a minor balance issue and made it much worse by making this change.

Is the idea of limited HLA tables for multiclass characters cool? Yes. Is it balanced? I don?t think so.

The limited number of HLA selections is the greatest balancing factor of all for multiclass characters. They will never have the same number of GWW attacks or Critical Strike HLAs as their fighter counterparts *unless* they short themselves mage wise and vice versa.

Is it possible to compromise? Can you, say, limit the F/M to selected Fighter HLAs until he reaches 20th level as a fighter & then make it wide open. Ditto for the mage HLAs until he gets to 18th level there?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Oh, and a quick question about multiclass HLA's and kits. What happens when someone uses shadowkeeper to give their multiclass character a kit when they have the mod installed?

For instance will an Avenger/Fighter be able to get comet or not?

[Littiz]

THACO stops getting better for fighters around level 21. A multicalss fighter/mage can get to 21st level.

One more reason to give something more to single classes: each class must have something special, something others don't have.
You MUST gain something for having sacrificed all other kinds of learnings, by choosing a single class.

Yes, a Multi can reach almost the same level as a pure fighter, but he can't become more than specialized in weapons (unless you hack the game).
That is the spirit, imho. Those are not really "equivalent" 21th levels...

The *only* advantage the multiclass character almost always had was the HLAs.

They still have it, somehow. It is quite unlikely a dualclass will choose HLAs from two different pools, possibly finding interesting combinations yet to discover, with the new stuff .
In order to gain HLAs in both classes, a dualclass should do sacrifices for the whole game, while a multiclass has this chance for free.

Now I?ve seen others argue that Dual-classing itself is unbalanced but unless you stop it altogether with your mod you have taken a minor balance issue and made it much worse by making this change.

As a matter of fact, I'd be able to remove spells even from dualclassed characters. I've done it already for the S.A. kit: when dualclassed to mage, the Death Field HLA will appear greyed and unpickable. Here it's fitting since S.A. must always be barred from the Necromantic School.
A similar trick could be applied for all dualclasses, in principle, but I'm still against it though, as a general rule.

Ok, this is more a PnP residue from the old days:
the concept is that Humans "burn" faster, but brighter.
Demi-humans have a longer life, resistances, can learn many things, they generally have a "slow" attitude towards life.
Only Humans will have the burning thirst of power, knowledge, or simply for life, that renders them capable to attain incredible things in a limited time.
I'd like to preserve this impostation: when you dual, you ARE exactly like a single class. Nothing is barred from you (you can become a GrandMaster, if you dual to a fighter...)

Anyway, this issue might be reconsidered if serious balances issues arise.
So far though, I think multiclasses had the Scepter of "Overpowerness". Think about Solaufein. Mixing HLAs from two or three pools is not a joke, it's overkill by itself. We just try to limit some abuses (I won't try to list the nasty tricks that have been discovered by using HLAs of different kinds...)

Is it possible to compromise? Can you, say, limit the F/M to selected Fighter HLAs until he reaches 20th level as a fighter & then make it wide open. Ditto for the mage HLAs until he gets to 18th level there?

Something about levels can be set, in the tables. Don't know what would happen with multis though.
We'll consider this point for further versions, but multis *must* lose something, IMHO.

About Avengers/Fighters: I *think* they'd get the regular Fighter/Druid table (similarly to the behaviour of multiclassed Illusionists).
Sorry, it's not something I can change anyway, the engine decides..

[Rathwellin the Bard]

The more I've tested Refinements the more I've realized how much it favors kits & single class characters.

To an extent this is a very good thing. It seems like in a unRefined game it always makes the most sense to be a multi or dual class PC power-gaming wise. Refinements both adds to the flavors of the single classes and improves them.

However it also weakens the multis. I do understand many of the reasons for this. Quite a few of the arguments were articulated here, which is why I resurrected this thread.

What I really wish is that in addition to taking away the more powerful 'single class' HLAs that each multiclass combo had gotten it's own unique HLA. For instance a Fighter/Mage might have gotten a unique buffing spell, a Cleric/Thief some kind of quest level sanctuary spell, etc. I think that this would have gone the extra mile and have made me excited about playing *every* kind of character with refinements.

I'm fully aware of the icon limits you guys are running into and wouldn't even necessarily expect something like this in 2.0. Sigh. Still I would be curious to hear your thoughts TG & Littiz.

[T.G.Maestro]

Well, here you have my thoughts about this:
I agree with the point that one unique ability for every multi (or at least something more powerful) should be added. Yet they should be definitely weaker than the removed "Greater" abilities.

You can post your ideas/thoughts for possible bonus HLAs for multiclasses.

[GreyViper]

About multi classes some of them are powerfull and usefull(Cleric-Mage, Figther-Mage, Fighter-Mage-Thief) others are not(fighter-Tief, Fighter-Cleric). In Ravenloft I usualy play with two person combo Paladin & Multi Cleric-Mage, both are must in order to survive. Its a powerfull combo normaly, but in BG2 it just wont work that good. Multi classes strong points come out usualy at low levels but they advance in levels slowly and in BG2 it shows. The pros of multiclass are that mages can use swords and any armor when they run out of spells.
Btw its kinda shame that mostly half-elvs get the multiclass option.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

You can post your ideas/thoughts for possible bonus HLAs for multiclasses.

A thought for F/M types. How about an innate that combines Whirlwind Attack and IA? Have it last for one round.

Lets them get a weak IA long before they can actually cast 9th level spells.

[Schatten]

f/m

mordenkaines black blade of disaster

no need for explanation, i hope.



m/t

zorro attack

scribes symbols on the victims body, need to be invis

activates: symbol death, stun, fear



f/t

surprise jump

when the char is invis or hides in shadow, the char can jump (tele to the target) to the target. the shockwave of the impact stuns the enemies and damages them.

or

surprise charge


sorry, i am not very creative.

[T.G.Maestro]

A thought for F/M types. How about an innate that combines Whirlwind Attack and IA? Have it last for one round.

Lets them get a weak IA long before they can actually cast 9th level spells

Oh no! Forget that IA as soon as you can! It will be ordered into the TD class of mage spells, and will be removed from the HLA selection of NORMAL mages too!

mordenkaines black blade of disaster

That would be extremely powerful, something that would be a great 10th level spell for mages for example. But not for F/M characters - as I said, I'm looking for abilities that are 8th-9th level in power.

scribes symbols on the victims body, need to be invis

activates: symbol death, stun, fear

A onsiderable idea, to say the least - though it would need heavy toning, of course. I can imagine something like this for M/Ts.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

A more passive idea I had for fighter mages was to see if they could be made so that physical damage doesn't disrupt their spellcasting.

It would make sense that they would be far more used to physcial abuse than their pure mage brethern.

Was worried about overlap with the existing Sorcerer HLA though.

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 10 May 2004 - 08:23 AM.

[Userunfriendly]

I've tried and failed many times to render one of my spellcasters (through the power of SK) uninterruptable. That opcode doesn't seem to work for PCs whatsoever. So, according to experience, that idea is a no-go. It'd make fighter-mages even cooler than they already are, but I don't think it's possible.

it can be done...

(sorry about the spam tg...)

I personally agree that for game balance purposes a multi should be limited in choosing from the two pools, and be banned from the uber abilities...a multi already has tremendous advantages built in from just being able to access SOME of the abilities from both pools...i would disagree that it makes multi's less attactive in character creation, simply that it makes singles more attractive, which really is nice...

[T.G.Maestro]

I personally agree that for game balance purposes a multi should be limited in choosing from the two pools, and be banned from the uber abilities...a multi already has tremendous advantages built in from just being able to access SOME of the abilities from both pools...i would disagree that it makes multi's less attactive in character creation, simply that it makes singles more attractive, which really is nice...

I'm glad that you see things our way UU. Right, Refinements greatly modifies the old balance-level between the single-dual / multi characters, but I see no real problems with the results at the moment. The same goes for the main class - kit issue. With Refinements installed, it is actually worth it to choose the base class (Fighter, Bard, Mage, etc.), since they get abilities the kits will never see.

A more passive idea I had for fighter mages was to see if they could be made so that physical damage doesn't disrupt their spellcasting.

This would be a great addition, one that I'd accept. The problem is: I don't know how to make the characters immune to the Spell Failure effect from damage during casting. Any help?

[Userunfriendly]

This would be a great addition, one that I'd accept. The problem is: I don't know how to make the characters immune to the Spell Failure effect from damage during casting. Any help?

try making a spell that adds these immunity affects to a character...

60 is Miscast Magic
114 is Can't Cast Spells
145 is Disable Spell Casting Abilities
272 is Summon Insects/Insect Plague/Creeping Doom

i know for sure that 60 will protect you from the cleric spell, and hive mother anti magic beholder ray (miscast magic no save for 3 rounds)

145 will actually allow you to cast magic while under plate mail, tensor's transformation, and champion strength...

272 will stop creeping doom...

not sure what 114 does...

what i am getting at is i don't think its possible to prevent spell failure due to damage during casting, but an innate that decreases spell casting time, like -4, and makes you temporarily immune to the other things that cause spell failure, like blindness, insect swarm, and the miscast magic spell would be almost as good...